# Declaration of Independence vs. Constitution **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 23, 2003, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-vs-constitution/197084 "2003-08-23T03:04:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![urban1a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47c2d/32.png) [@urban1a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urban1a)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-vs-constitution/197084/1 "2003-08-23T03:04:03Z")
In recent debates regarding the separation of church and state, I often see the Declaration of Independence used as a justification that the United States is a ‘Christian’ nation because it uses the term ‘Creator’. However, I don’t see the term ‘God’ or ‘Creator’ used in the Constitution. My question is: Does the Declaration of Independence have any basis in law in the US? To my knowledge, and IANAL, is that the basis of law in the US is the Constitution and English common law. If you have any questions about my question, please let me know and I’ll try to make it more clear. Thanks, Bob ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-vs-constitution/197084/2 "2003-08-23T03:43:38Z")
The Declaration of Independence, while an important historical document, is not any form of law nor any part of the law. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-vs-constitution/197084/3 "2003-08-23T03:47:07Z")
The basis of law in the U.S. on the federal level is the Constitution, congressional statutes, the various rulings promulgated by the adminstrative branch and independent agencies,\* and the judicial interpretations of same. The Declaration of Independence is nice prose but has no legal standing. Our laws are certainly derived from English common law but have equally certainly divulged from it over the years. Separation of church and state rests on the First Amendment. You are correct in that God does not appear in the Constitution. In fact, in two places people are specifically given the right to affirm rather than swear, making the Constitution explicitly areligious in its manifestations. \*You try telling the SEC, FCC, FDA, FTC, IRS, INS, ATF, and the rest that their rulings don’t have the force of law. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-vs-constitution/197084/4 "2003-08-23T03:47:39Z")
You are correct, **urban1z**. While the DofI is often cited in ideological arguments about the founding principles of the country, it has no legal status. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and all legal authority is subject to it, _including_, by the way, the English common law which we inherrited. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-vs-constitution/197084/5 "2003-08-23T04:19:54Z")
A quick read of the Deceleration will reveal that while it does contain some recitation of principles ("we hold these truths to be self evident…), it is for the most part a listing of grievances against the British crown and parliament. Some of the grievances are pretty petty, as the complaint that the King had moved colonial assemblies to inconvenient places. This is a reference to the Crown Governor of Mass. having the assembly meet in Cambridge (our fair city) rather than Boston in order to get it away from Sam Adams’s mobs which were terrorizing loyalists in Boston. None the less, the statement of principles, while not law, have had great effect on the interpretation of the Constitution. Much of Lincoln’s reading of the objectives of the Constitution and the destiny of the nation was based on his reading of the self evident truths listed in the Deceleration. See, for example, Gary Willis’s book on the Gettysburg Address. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-vs-constitution/197084/6 "2003-08-23T05:58:23Z")
I have heard many Americans say that we have a “Rule of Law”. Since Law can’t rule but must be interpreted by someone and since here in the USA we have delegated that task to judges I tend to think of it as a “Rule of Judges”. Law is whatever a judge says it is. Unless a higher judge or panel of judges overrules that decision. The highest panel is the Supreme Court and according to one of them: > [@](#): > > \*In his view, “the ’original intention’ of the Constitution” is to fulfill “the ideals of the Declaration of Independence.” As we know, the Constitution was originally intended to replace the Articles of Confederation and create “a more perfect Union.” For the Founders, “a more perfect Union” meant a Union that more perfectly embraced the principles for which they risked their “Lives,” “Fortunes,” and “sacred Honor” in the Revolutionary War. As Justice Thomas points out, these principles are the “ideals of the Declaration of Independence.” Hence he draws the reasonable conclusion that to understand the original intent of the Constitution, we must first understand the principles of the Declaration. \* > > [Lest We Forget: Clarence Thomas and the Meaning of the Constitution](http://www.ashbrook.org/publicat/onprin/v6n6/sikkenga.html) > ( See also: [Principles: The Jurisprudence of Clarence Thomas](http://69.20.4.21/writings/991001morel.html). ) ---
**Author:** ![Sphinx1600](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@Sphinx1600](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sphinx1600)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-vs-constitution/197084/7 "2003-08-23T07:58:18Z")
> [@](#): > > “A quick read of the Deceleration…” Whoa, slow down. 😉 I find myself attracted to a document that starts with “When in the course of human events…” Sounds like a national ‘Dear John,’ letter. "Dear John, ``` When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for me to dump you, I'll let you know... ``` Sorry England. I know you’ll be happier without me. The United States of America." ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-vs-constitution/197084/8 "2003-08-23T08:12:33Z")
> [@](#): > > **urban1z** : …I often see the Declaration of Independence used as a justification that the United States is a ‘Christian’ nation because it uses the term ‘Creator’. Why does that mean to them that the Createes are supposed to be Christians? Nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-vs-constitution/197084/9 "2003-08-23T10:29:00Z")
The Declaration of Independence always wins … it it’s prepared. ---
**Author:** ![urban1a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47c2d/32.png) [@urban1a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urban1a)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-vs-constitution/197084/10 "2003-08-23T14:01:59Z")
Thanks to all who responded. And also, thanks to reading my question as I should have asked it, rather than the way I did ask it. Of course, I should have said something like: Is any us law based on the Declaration of Independence. All the answers confirm what I had suspected and I’ll have a ready argument the next time it comes up. Bob ---
**Author:** ![Agback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/977dab/32.png) [@Agback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agback)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-vs-constitution/197084/11 "2003-08-23T14:47:26Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Exapno Mapcase \* > The basis of law in the U.S. on the federal level is the Constitution, congressional statutes, the various rulings promulgated by the adminstrative branch and independent agencies, and the judicial interpretations of same._ Plus the English Common Law (in most states) and (according to the Supremacy Clause) treaties ratified by the Senate. Regards, Agback ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-vs-constitution/197084/12 "2003-08-23T17:03:32Z")
I said on the “federal level” specifically to exclude state laws. But if you want to include them, then the same qualification stands: they (mostly) are based on English common law, but have been changed so much from it that current state codifications would hardly be recognizable to anyone in the 16th century. And Louisiana’s law is based on Napoleonic (French) civil codes, which are very different from English civil law. Again, though, it has changed tremendously over time. You are correct in that treaties are technically part of the federal law. The U.S. has long had a odd way of handling treaty law, unfortunately - we tend to ignore its existence whenever it suits our purposes. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-vs-constitution/197084/13 "2003-08-23T17:13:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sphinx1600 \* > I find myself attracted to a document that starts with “When in the course of human events…” Well, it is not original to the Declaration of Independence, it was quite plagiarized from Oliver Cromwell > [@](#): > > When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for people to abridge their king, a decent respect for the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. ---
**Author:** ![Sphinx1600](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@Sphinx1600](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sphinx1600)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-vs-constitution/197084/14 "2003-08-25T05:45:16Z")
To be honest, I wasn’t aware of that. sailor- I thought it was plagarized from the Greeks, or possibly Romans. “When in the course of human events…” It has a melancholy ring that screams Iron Age. Something about the ‘guileless’ democratic aspect of it. -bo ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-vs-constitution/197084/15 "2003-08-25T07:17:20Z")
What is frustrating (to me) is that very few Americans recognize “When in the course of human events…” as part of the Declaration od Independence so there’s no point in telling them it is not original to it. I always liked the “abridge their king” part. It sounds like taken from Allan Sherman’s song “Louis the 16th” where he says "we’re gonna take you and the queen, down to the guillotine and _shorten_ you a little bit. > [@](#): > > You went the wrong way, Old King Louie. > You made the population cry. > 'Cause all you did was sit and pet > With Marie Antoinette > In your place at Versailles. > And now the country’s gone kablooie. > So we are giving you the air. > That oughta teach you not to > Spend all your time fooling 'round > At the Folies Bergere. > > - If you had been a nicer king, > - We wouldn’t do a thing, > - But you were bad, you must admit. > - We’re gonna take you and the Queen > - Down to the guillotine, > - And shorten you a little bit. > You came the wrong way, Old King Louie. > And now you ain’t got far to go. > Too bad you won’t be here to see > That great big Eiffel Tower, > Or Brigitte Bardot. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-vs-constitution/197084/16 "2003-08-25T11:57:48Z")
The Declaration does not have the same force of law as does the Constitution, but it does clarify many things esp if you want to see what the founding fathers intended, as does the Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of taking up Arms from July 6, 1775. [http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/causes.htm](http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/causes.htm) Seems to me, that any Supreme Court Justice, any judge, any prosecutor, and any lawyer should be completely familiar with all 3 of these documents as well as all of the debates and opinions when these things were written and adopted. What better way to understand what the Constitution really means? ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-vs-constitution/197084/17 "2003-08-25T12:57:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Little Nemo \* > \*\*The Declaration of Independence always wins … it it’s prepared. \*\* Unless the Constitution has a 1720s style death ray. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-vs-constitution/197084/18 "2003-08-25T15:18:16Z")
I think that post officially qualifies **Scuba\_Ben** for threadslaughter charges … Oh, damn! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-vs-constitution/197084/19 "2003-08-25T17:40:30Z")
D’oh! Still the threadkiller! ---
**Author:** ![slipster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@slipster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slipster)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-vs-constitution/197084/20 "2003-08-25T18:17:53Z")
How does one determine what the Constitution _really_ means? By researching how judges have interpreted it. As Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. said, the law is whatever judges in fact will do. As for the idea that The Declaration of Independence expresses what what the Founding Fathers intended the Consitution to mean, it should be noted that Thomas Jefferson, the principal author of The Declaration of Independence, was, in fact, _opposed_ to having a constitution. As previous posters have noted, the Declaration is mainly a list of grievances against Great Britain. A prime reason given at the time for needing it was that it would be useful for diplomatic purposes when soliciting aid from foreign powers. A comparative reading of The Declaration of Independence and The Constitution shows very little congruity. If The Constituion is “based” on The Declaration of Independence, then it is also “based” on The Ten Commandments, an idea examined on this board in the past week. And if The Constitution can be said to be “based” on both of these texts by somehow embodying their spirit, then it can just as fairly be said to be based on The Quran, The Upanishads, The Pledge of Allegiance, and The Little Engine That Could. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-independence-vs-constitution/197084.md?page=2)