# Declaration of War **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 11, 2015, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-war/740205 "2015-12-11T23:28:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Stinky\_Pete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Stinky\_Pete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stinky_Pete)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2015, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-war/740205/1 "2015-12-11T23:28:43Z")
A very short time after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, Germany declared war on the United States. If Germany didn’t declare war first, did the USA intend to declare war on Germany? Or would the US have only fought a war against Japan? Before Pearl Harbor, FDR had be wrangling to get the USA into the war in Europe, but the mood of America was too isolationist to allow him to get much involved. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-war/740205/2 "2015-12-12T00:22:58Z")
It might not have made any difference. The U.S. and Germany had been effectively waging an undeclared war in the Atlantic, and for some knowing Germany was an ally of Japan may be enough. Check out these [reports](https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=61WMf6XRVT8C&pg=PA15&lpg=PP1&focus=viewport) from December 8th, 1941; > [@](#): > > The Washington Times-Herald…concluded that\* “before dawn today, it was likely that the United States would be engaged in a formal war not only against Japan, but against her Axis allies - Germany and Italy.”\* > Longtime isolationist newpapers like the Times-Herald…not only expected an instant declaration of war on Germany on December 8, but also openly expressed the hope that the United States would do so." > …longtime isolationist _Chicago Tribune_ on December 8 “men of all parties and groups, interventionists and non-interventionists, were going on record in favor of declaring war on Japan. Many were in favor also of declaring war on Germany on the ground that Hitler incited Japan to attack the United States.” December 9, the _Des Moines (Iowa) Register_; _“…it is only a matter of time before the American declaration that a state of war exists with Japan will be extented to Germany and Italy…This wider implication…came in a White House statement which accused Germany of inspiring Japanese attacks upon American bases in a hope it would end the Lend-Lease program.”_ The \*Cincinnati Enquirer \*ran an editorial called “Confirming the Obvious” on December 12; _“It was clear to most Americans months ago that we were engaged in an undeclared war with Germany…It was clear to virtually all…that the treacherous Japanese attack involved us in all-out war with the the entire Rome-Berlin-Tokyo Axis.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-war/740205/3 "2015-12-12T00:46:08Z")
Yes, the formal declaration of war was pretty much a PR happening. The US didn’t want to declare it and besides FDR indeed had to deal with his isolationists in Congress, but he did all it could to get involved regardless - and I don’t mean just Lend Lease. American destroyers and merchant ships would broadcast U-boot sightings in the Atlantic in clear or even actively run after U-boots, pinging like crazy, just so that British ships/planes could blow them up. That ain’t neutral by any stretch of the word. Now Germany did not want to declare war and be branded the aggressor, but Hitler understood well that he simply had to do something about American convoys steaming into England and undoing all the primo industrial destruction his air force had been doing. At the same time, he remembered how the US had used the RMS Lusitania as a pretext to get into the Great War and was loathe to repeat that mistake. He and Dönitz were very very explicit to their submarine skippers that they were not, under any circumstances, to shoot at US cargo boats ever ; and that the penalties for doing so wouldn’t be fun at all. That’s one thing. The other thing is a Trump-like notion that if there’s to be a war, you have to be the one declaring it 'cause you’re the Decider and not just reacting to outside forces. “You’re not at war with me, I’m at war with YOU !”, that kind of thing. So Hitler waited until the last possible minute to declare war, but declared first anyway. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-war/740205/4 "2015-12-12T02:46:28Z")
What puzzles me is that the Soviet Union, which was on the Allied side, did not declare war against Japan until after the atom bombs were dropped in 1945; after all, in 1939 they had a score to settle with the Japanese since 1905. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-war/740205/5 "2015-12-12T03:06:45Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > What puzzles me is that the Soviet Union, which was on the Allied side, did not declare war against Japan until after the atom bombs were dropped in 1945; after all, in 1939 they had a score to settle with the Japanese since 1905. Yeah, but a peace with Japan meant they didn’t have to secure their eastern border all that much (and, in turn, Japan didn’t want to fuck around with Russia because it already had two giants on its plate). Which meant that Stalin could ferry most of the tanks and veteran troops assigned to patrolling the Sino-Siberian border, the Kurils etc… out west to chew up Nazis with instead. Besides, the war of 1904-5 was the tsar’s beef, not Stalin’s. Also a fundamentally imperialist/colonialist effort, which any marxist will tell you is anathema wrt True Socialism (no, the Eastern republics don’t count, apparently :p). ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-war/740205/6 "2015-12-12T06:19:20Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yeah, but a peace with Japan meant they didn’t have to secure their eastern border all that much (and, in turn, Japan didn’t want to fuck around with Russia because it already had two giants on its plate). Which meant that Stalin could ferry most of the tanks and veteran troops assigned to patrolling the Sino-Siberian border, the Kurils etc… out west to chew up Nazis with instead. Actually, that’s a myth. The USSR never significantly changed it’s troop strength in the east until the big buildup in 1945. There was a limited rotation of fresh units for experienced units, and general redeployment of units, but the idea that a huge batch of veteran Siberian troops were pulled in to turn the tide at the end of 1941 and that the far east was mostly stripped of troops is false. This is one of those stories that took on a life of its own until the Soviet archives were opened in the 90s. [The ‘Siberian’ Divisions and the Battle for Moscow in 1941-42 - Operation Barbarrosa](http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/the-siberian-divisions-and-the-battle-for-moscow-in-1941-42/) The main reason the USSR stayed neutral was that Japan would not attack Soviet flagged ships, which allowed the US to and a significant chunk of lend-lease across the pacific. ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-war/740205/7 "2015-12-12T13:01:44Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > \<…\> At the same time, he remembered how the US had used the RMS Lusitania as a pretext to get into the Great War and was loathe to repeat that mistake. \<…\> That is not exactly right. The _Lusitania_ was sunk on May 7th 1915, and the US didn’t enter WW1 until 1917. Although it is true that the _Lusitania_ affair influenced the US public mood and had a part in the final decision of the US to join WWI on the part of the allies, what provided the _casus belli_ was the [Zimmermann Telegram](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram) of January 1917, in which the German minister of Foreign Affairs offered Mexico help from the German Empire if Mexico were to declare war on the US in order to take back part of the territory it lost in the US-Mexican war of 1846-47 (to be precise, the states of Texas, New Mexico and Arizona). The US finally declared war on Germany on April 6, 1917. Interestingly enough, there were some doubts as to the authenticity of the Zimmermann Telegram (which had been intercepted by the British, decoded and provided to the US government – some people thought it was a trick of the British to induce the US to enter the war). However… [QUOTE=Wikipedia] \<…\>any doubts as to the authenticity of the telegram were removed by Arthur Zimmermann himself. First at a press conference on 3 March 1917, he told an American journalist, “I cannot deny it. It is true.” Then, on 29 March 1917, Zimmermann gave a speech in the Reichstag in which he admitted the telegram was genuine. Zimmermann hoped Americans would understand the idea was that Germany would only fund Mexico’s war with the United States in the event of American entry into World War I. [/QUOTE] Now, what the heck… Had I been Zimmermann, you can bet I would have denied until the end of the world! But by publicly admitting the authenticity of the document (to an American journalist, no less!), well… The entry of the US in WW1 (which was the last thing the Germans wanted) was basically inevitable. So, summing up: Although the _Lusitania_ sinking had some influence in the public mood in the US, the main reason (by far) for the US entering WW1 almost 2 years later was the Zimmermann Telegram. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-war/740205/8 "2015-12-12T15:22:27Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yeah, but a peace with Japan meant they didn’t have to secure their eastern border all that much (and, in turn, Japan didn’t want to fuck around with Russia because it already had two giants on its plate). Which meant that Stalin could ferry most of the tanks and veteran troops assigned to patrolling the Sino-Siberian border, the Kurils etc… out west to chew up Nazis with instead. > > Besides, the war of 1904-5 was the tsar’s beef, not Stalin’s. Also a fundamentally imperialist/colonialist effort, which any marxist will tell you is anathema wrt True Socialism (no, the Eastern republics don’t count, apparently :p). Incidentally: You know why Khrushchev beat his desk with his shoe, don’t you? A delegate from The Philippines had just taken up this topic and accused the USSR of a seriously hypocritical policy. ---
**Author:** ![Vaevictis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f04885/32.png) [@Vaevictis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vaevictis)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-war/740205/9 "2015-12-12T15:38:14Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yes, the formal declaration of war was pretty much a PR happening. > > Now Germany did not want to declare war and be branded the aggressor, but Hitler understood well that he simply had to do something about American convoys steaming into England and undoing all the primo industrial destruction his air force had been doing. > > So Hitler waited until the last possible minute to declare war, but declared first anyway. German bombing of England did not have a significant strategic effect. The war in the Atlantic did have potential to be strategically important by starving Great Britain of raw materials. I think you are right about Hitler assuming that, hey, Germany is already at war with the US due to the naval actions in the Atlantic and the aid to the Allies. But that was very naive because that kind of limited war was nothing compared to having hundred of thousands of Americans in Europe fighting you directly (by the end of the war US Army troop strength in Europe was roughly 1.9 million… anyone who thinks that is comparable to sinking/helping to sink some U-Boats has no sense of perspective. But then Hitler was no good at having any kind of rational perspective on basically anything.) ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-war/740205/10 "2015-12-12T15:46:30Z")
FDR had considered asking Congress to declare war on Germany at the same time as against Japan, but wisely (as it turns out, perhaps he enjoyed simple luck) held off to ensure the complete support for the declaration against Japan. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Yes, the formal declaration of war was pretty much a PR happening. No, is was of utmost importance. While the two countries were conducting an undeclared war, it was limited in scale and only a miniscule prelude to open warfare. > [@](#): > > The US didn’t want to declare it and besides FDR indeed had to deal with his isolationists in Congress, but he did all it could to get involved regardless - and I don’t mean just Lend Lease. American destroyers and merchant ships would broadcast U-boot sightings in the Atlantic in clear or even actively run after U-boots, pinging like crazy, just so that British ships/planes could blow them up. That ain’t neutral by any stretch of the word. Actually the US had been aggressively attempting to provoke an incident and the navy was under secret orders to attack any Axis vessels which were in a position to threaten convoys. Among other actions were transporting British troops on US transports which clearly violated the official neutrality. [quote] Now Germany did not want to declare war and be branded the aggressor, but Hitler understood well that he simply had to do something about American convoys steaming into England and undoing all the primo industrial destruction his air force had been doing. [/quote.] Not really. The Battle of Britain and The Blitz were over by that point, and Britain had defeated our outlasted the Luftwaffe. The Germans failed to significantly affect British industrial output. The most significant factor were the attacks on shipping by U-boats, German surface ships and aircraft. The Battle of the Atlantic was far more dangerous to the UK than the Battle of Britain. > [@](#): > > So Hitler waited until the last possible minute to declare war, but declared first anyway. He technically still didn’t really need to declare war then as Germany was not under obligation to join Japan against the US because Japan initiated the war. However, by declaring war on the US, he allowed the U-boats to enjoy the [Second Happy Time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Happy_Time), a six-month period in which seasoned U-boat commanders took advantage of the distracted US Navy and a complete lack of organization and inadequate defensive measure to inflict 3 million tons of shipping losses, a quarter of all Allied losses to Axis submarines during the war. That is in contrast to the 5 million tons of Japanese shipping sunk by the US during the entire Pacific War. > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > What puzzles me is that the Soviet Union, which was on the Allied side, did not declare war against Japan until after the atom bombs were dropped in 1945; after all, in 1939 they had a score to settle with the Japanese since 1905. Nitpick. The Soviets declared war after Hiroshima but prior to Nagasaki. Stalin had agreed to enter the war within three months of the defeat of Germany and he upheld his promise which fell on August 8th. The operation was months in planning and large scale, against an area the size of Europe. The timing was not in specific response to the atomic bomb, although Stalin was aware of the bomb because of his spies. > [@Pantastic](#): > > The main reason the USSR stayed neutral was that Japan would not attack Soviet flagged ships, which allowed the US to and a significant chunk of lend-lease across the pacific. There was no need for the Soviets to declare war on Japan. They had more than their hands full fighting against Germany and fighting a full blown war against the 1.3 million strong Japanese Kwantung Army. From 1941 certainly until D-Day, and really until the end of the war, the Soviets were doing the bulk of the fighting against the Nazis. They can’t be faulted for skipping out against the Japanese. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-war/740205/11 "2015-12-12T16:08:07Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > What puzzles me is that the Soviet Union, which was on the Allied side, did not declare war against Japan until after the atom bombs were dropped in 1945; after all, in 1939 they had a score to settle with the Japanese since 1905. The USSR had all it could handle with Germany, and a war with Japan could only weaken the effort it had to make against Germany. Also, the 1905 score was partially settled at Nonhuman in 1939, when the USSR crushed a Japanese invasion of USSR Client territory in Mongolia. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-war/740205/12 "2015-12-12T16:13:06Z")
> [@Stinky\_Pete](#): > > A very short time after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, Germany declared war on the United States. > > If Germany didn’t declare war first, did the USA intend to declare war on Germany? Or would the US have only fought a war against Japan? > > Before Pearl Harbor, FDR had be wrangling to get the USA into the war in Europe, but the mood of America was too isolationist to allow him to get much involved. The US and the UK were allies due to their common war against Japan. IMO this would have eventually made inevitable war with Germany. For example the US would surely have redoubled its cross-Atlantic aid to its ally, something Germany would be unlikely to just sit and watch. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-war/740205/13 "2015-12-12T18:22:31Z")
War with Germany might not have happened for several years. Support of the UK would have stayed the same, or actually _declined_, in the face of public demands to destroy Japan. Chemical Weapons would have been used against Japanese cities. [Project X-Ray](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_bomb) might have been deployed, with at least a limited success. The Atomic Bomb, if built at all, would have been used against Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Bert\_Nobbins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@Bert\_Nobbins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bert_Nobbins)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-war/740205/14 "2015-12-12T18:57:47Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > Also, the 1905 score was partially settled at Nonhuman in 1939, I think you might mean Nonmonhan: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles\_of\_Khalkhin\_Gol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol) Mind, you it probably was fairly inhuman. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-war/740205/15 "2015-12-12T19:01:50Z")
To Bosda Di’Chi of Trichor: In reference to your signature dialogue in Post #13: Have you ever heard of Maurice Zolotow? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-war/740205/16 "2015-12-12T19:08:44Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Actually the US had been aggressively attempting to provoke an incident and the navy was under secret orders to attack any Axis vessels which were in a position to threaten convoys. FDR’s “shoot-on-sight” order - that “From now on, if German or Italian vessels enter the waters, the protection of which is necessary for American defense, they do so at their own peril” - in response to the attack on the USS _Greer_ was made very publically in his Fireside Chat Sept 11, 1941, the full audio of the broadcast is available [here](http://blogs.cfr.org/lindsay/2012/09/11/twe-remembers-fdrs-shoot-on-sight-speech/). It was a rather popular action, [A Gallup poll subsequently showed 62 percent of Americans approved the President’s action](http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/cou/us/pr/41/unw.html). The _Greer_ was of course hardly the first time there were hostilities between the US Navy and German U-Boats; the [_USS Niblack_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Niblack_(DD-424)) fired the first shots in the undeclared naval war back on April 10, 1941 conducting a depth charge attack against a U-Boat. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-war/740205/17 "2015-12-12T19:09:30Z")
> [@Bert\_Nobbins](#): > > I think you might mean Nonmonhan: > > [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles\_of\_Khalkhin\_Gol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol) > > Mind, you it probably was fairly inhuman. Thanks for catching the mistake, but it seems that the correct spelling is N-o-m-o-n-h-a-n. I knew of the “Khalkin Gol” alternative but chose Nomo-whatever because it is shorter and less foreign-looking. In the future I think I will go with “Khalkin Gol”. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-war/740205/18 "2015-12-12T19:27:09Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Besides, the war of 1904-5 was the tsar’s beef, not Stalin’s. Also a fundamentally imperialist/colonialist effort, which any marxist will tell you is anathema wrt True Socialism (no, the Eastern republics don’t count, apparently :p). Stalin wanted a clear title to the Kurils, and an already defeated Japan gave it to him. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-war/740205/19 "2015-12-12T21:19:03Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > To Bosda Di’Chi of Trichor: > In reference to your signature dialogue in Post #13: Have you ever heard of Maurice Zolotow? i have not. I simply quoted lines from a TV show. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-war/740205/20 "2015-12-14T07:23:46Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > FDR’s “shoot-on-sight” order - that “From now on, if German or Italian vessels enter the waters, the protection of which is necessary for American defense, they do so at their own peril” - in response to the attack on the USS _Greer_ was made very publically in his Fireside Chat Sept 11, 1941, the full audio of the broadcast is available [here](http://blogs.cfr.org/lindsay/2012/09/11/twe-remembers-fdrs-shoot-on-sight-speech/). It was a rather popular action, [A Gallup poll subsequently showed 62 percent of Americans approved the President’s action](http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/cou/us/pr/41/unw.html). > > The _Greer_ was of course hardly the first time there were hostilities between the US Navy and German U-Boats; the [_USS Niblack_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Niblack_(DD-424)) fired the first shots in the undeclared naval war back on April 10, 1941 conducting a depth charge attack against a U-Boat. The President’s orders to Admiral King and his orders to Atlantic Fleet [predate](http://historyarticles.com/undeclared-war/) the President’s address. > [@](#): > > In early July, six months after the President’s “arsenal of democracy” speech, it was time to ratchet up the standoff at sea. FDR wrote to Admiral Stark. “It is necessary under the conditions of modern warfare to recognize that the words ‘threat of attack’ may extend reasonably long distances away from a convoyed ship or ships. It thus seems clear that the very presence of a German submarine or raider on or near the line of communications constitutes ‘threat of attack.’ Therefore, the presence of any German submarine or raider should be dealt with by action looking to the elimination of such ‘threat of attack’ on the lines of communication, or close to it.” > > The President’s syntax may have been muddy, but not his intent. Six months before Pearl Harbor, lacking a declaration of war and without the knowledge of Congress or the American people, the Commander-in-Chief gave the Atlantic Fleet approval to change from defensive to offensive operations. > > On September 1, in OPERATION PLAN 7-41, Admiral King set down in upper case his interpretation of the President’s letter to Admiral Stark. Stamped SECRET, King’s analysis went to ten Navy task forces and four patrols – Northern, Gulf, Caribbean and Panama. > > “MY INTERPRETATION OF THREAT TO UNITED STATES OR ICELAND FLAG SHIPPING WHETHER ESCORTED OR NOT, IS THAT THREAT EXISTS WHEN: > > 1. POTENTIALLY HOSTILE VESSELS ARE ACTUALLY WITHIN SIGHT OR SOUND CONTACT OF SUCH SHIPPING OR ITS ESCORT. > > 2. POTENTIALLY HOSTILE SURFACE RAIDERS APPROACH WITHIN 100 MILES OF SUCH SHIPPING, ALONG THE SEA LANES BETWEEN NORTH AMERICA AND ICELAND. > > 3. POTENTIALLY HOSTILE SURFACE RAIDERS OR SUBMARINES EITHER APPROACH WITHIN 100 MILES OF SUCH SHIPPING TRAVERSING ROUTES DEFINED IN PARAGRAPH 3 (W) (5) BELOW, OR ENTER THE PROCLAIMED NEUTRALITY ZONE. > > 4. ANY POTENTIALLY HOSTILE FORCES APPROACH TO WITHIN FIFTY MILES OF ICELAND.” > > The OpPlan had an unconditional order to U.S. Navy warships encountering Axis vessels: “DESTROY HOSTILE FORCES THAT THREATEN SHIPPING NAMED IN (B) AND (C) ABOVE.” > > Four days later came the “incident” long sought by the President and the Navy. Two hundred miles southwest of Reykavik, the old “four-piper” destroyer Greer barely escaped a torpedo fromU-552, and then unsuccessfully attacked with depth charges. The next day on radio a determined President spoke directly to Nazi Germany: “You shall go no further… If German or Italian vessels of war enter the waters…necessary for American defense, they do so at their own peril.” The New York Daily News said it all with a black headline: SHOOT, FDR TELLS NAVY. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declaration-of-war/740205.md?page=2)