# Declawing: a big round of applause to West Hollywood **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2003, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410 "2003-01-23T08:55:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410/41 "2003-01-23T18:52:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > \*\ ***MGibson** - part of the issue is that it’s not just a “nail clipping” - it’s the permanent surgical removal of their nail and top tendon (ie their actual digit). It is a maiming practice. \*\* I’m aware of what declawing does to a feline I’m just in the camp that doesn’t think it is a problem. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Felines may not have the right to vote, but I think anything that lives under our guardianship deserves to be treated with respect and decency during its life. This goes for food animals too - IANAVegetarian, I eat meat, but I expect the animals to be well treated for the duration of their lives. \*\* I don’t think that being declawed diminishes the quality of life for a cat. Did W. Hollywood also make laws against spaying and neutering? Those seem like maiming practices to me as well. Or is it ok to maim the animals in your care when you want to? Marc ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410/42 "2003-01-23T19:06:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xenophon41 \* > \*\*…[sub]wonder what **Lib** ’s favorite colors are…[/sub] \*\* My favorite color is brown. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410/43 "2003-01-23T22:29:50Z")
> [@](#): > > IMO, a declawed cat, particularly a declawed indoor cat, is more pathetic than a cat on its own. Why? A cat is more than just its claws, you know. It’s not like it’s getting a lobotomy. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410/44 "2003-01-23T22:53:25Z")
I know I’ve been able to sleep at night having justified all the surgery I’ve done on people like that. I mean, avoid the brain and give them a little shelter… they should be _greatful_ all I did was remove their claws! ---
**Author:** ![zwaldd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a9adbd/32.png) [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2003, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410/45 "2003-01-23T23:58:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\*Why? A cat is more than just its claws, you know. It’s not like it’s getting a lobotomy. \*\* I should have said **specifically** a declawed indoor cat. Declawing an outdoor cat is just plain cruel. I suppose once you make the decision to confine a cat to the house for the rest of its life, declawing it is not going to make much of a difference in its ability to suit your pet needs. ---
**Author:** ![Azael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@Azael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azael)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410/46 "2003-01-24T00:17:11Z")
I have three cats (my girlfriend has this thing about rescuing small animals) and I would never think of declawing them. IMO it is cruel and shows a certain degree of callousness as well as selfishness on the part of the owner. Cats **use** their claws all the time, whether it be for gripping, balance, self-defense or shredding your furniture. It’s part of the package. That said, I am well aware that many people out there do not agree with me. That’s fine, it’s just my opinion. It’s not like we can ask the cats themselves how they feel about it. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I don’t think that being declawed diminishes the quality of life for a cat. Did W. Hollywood also make laws against spaying and neutering? Those seem like maiming practices to me as well. Or is it ok to maim the animals in your care when you want to? \*\* :rolleyes: Apples and oranges. I suppose getting a vasectomy is a “maiming practice” as well? Not to mention that spaying and neutering help to keep the population from booming out of control. That’s the sort of situation that lends itself to far worse animal abuses than anything we are talking about here. Throwing around loaded terms like “maiming” and “mutilation” doesn’t really help either side of the debate. It’s simple, would _you_ like it if you had the tips of your fingers cut off? That’s enough for me, but not everyone sees it that way. Just for the record, I **hate** the way they’ve gone about this in West Hollywood. The law doesn’t do anything, people will still be able to find places to get the procedure done. And if they really feel it’s necessary, then that is their perogative. A piece of “feel good - do nothing” legislation IMO. Not like I expected anything more. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410/47 "2003-01-24T00:45:27Z")
If I am going to declaw a cat, then I’m taking him to Bed-Stuy gym so he can learn how to box. ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410/48 "2003-01-24T00:48:35Z")
I’m moderately opposed to declawing, but I disagree with this law. As has been mentioned, all you have to do is drive ten minutes and you’re outside of town. The law is useless. However, even if it wasn’t useless (say, a nationwide ban), I would still be opposed. Declawing is a pretty minor thing, in the grand scheme of things, for an indoor cat. And there _are_ legitimate reasons for having it done. I’m considering it for one of my cats, for example, because he doesn’t clean himself too well, and regardless of how clean the litterbox is, he alwasy manages to step in his own crap, which gets under his claws, and infects them. To me, that’s a good enough reason. What if the vet disagrees? What if the vet say, “Tough noogies, just clean his paws everyday with Q-Tips”, and I get denied? Is the vet necessarily a better judge of what will make my cat’s life better than I am? I think we should leave the decision up to the people. Let the vet try to talk them out of it, but ultimately, it should be the owner’s decision. I don’t think that declawing is so horribly cruel that it should be outlawed. I do have some questions, though, of those who know more on the matter. How does having a cat declawed affect the cat’s everyday activites? Is it kinda like me having my earlobes removed? Does it affect their balance? (My cat is a total clod anyway - I don’t think he could get clumsier.) Jeff ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410/49 "2003-01-24T01:36:32Z")
> [@](#): > > How does having a cat declawed affect the cat’s everyday activites? It doesn’t, AFAIK. A significant number of owners, however, will report that declawing causes cats to avoid their kitty litter boxes. Probably because the cats find the litter granules to be irritating to their nubs. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410/50 "2003-01-24T15:32:12Z")
Unbiased cite? Our cat has not problem with the litter box. It’s just crushed clay — same stuff they use to clean up oil spills. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410/51 "2003-01-24T15:35:11Z")
Of course, in the grand scheme of things **ElJeffe** you are right, removing something like your earlobes probably won’t significantly affect your way of life. Suppose parents starting doing this to their children. What sort of outrage would you expect to hear? No, cats are not people. But I have loved my pets as intensely as I’ve ever loved anyone or anything. My compassion is not limited by my estimation of another creature’s intelligence or physiological appearance. I think declawing is wrong because of the love I feel for them, and though I am glad enough people see fit to pass a law about it, I would never vote for such a law. Animals are there to do with as we please. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410/52 "2003-01-24T16:23:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Posit that there is a cat and that ours is the only home for him. We will take him in if he is declawed; otherwise, he must fend for himself in the wild. From what is given, do those who applaud West Hollywood prefer that we not take the cat? \*\* **Lib** , as our resident expert on logical fallacies, can you tell me what this is called? False dilemma, maybe? Excluded middle? I’m not sure, but I smell a rat. What we would prefer, of course, is that you educate yourself about how to prevent the cat from scratching furniture, and take the cat. From the [Humane Society of the United States](http://www.hsus.org/ace/11780): > [@](#): > > [W]hile there have been advances in the way that cats are declawed, it’s still true that for the majority of cats, the pain and expense of this surgical procedure are unnecessary. Educated cat owners can easily train their cats to use their claws in a manner that allows cat and owner to happily coexist. Declawing and tenectomies should be reserved only for those rare cases in which a cat cannot be properly trained, and, as a result, must be surgically altered or removed from the home. From the [American Humane Association: > [@](#): > > Declawed cats are completely defenseless if they get outside, as they can have difficulty defending themselves or climbing out of harm’s way. Indoor cats, if there is more than one cat in the household, can even have difficulty playing normally with other cats because their natural abilities and characteristics have been altered. Most cats can be “trained” to scratch only certain areas, without requiring this unnecessary and potentially harmful surgery. From the [url=http://www.ddfl.org/behavior/scratch.htm]Denver Dumb Friends League]([http://www.americanhumane.org/site/PageServer?pagename=pa\_care\_issues\_behavior\_scratching](http://www.americanhumane.org/site/PageServer?pagename=pa_care_issues_behavior_scratching)[/url) (one of the best animal shelters in the nation): > [@](#): > > We strongly discourage cat owners from having their cats declawed. Scratching is a natural behavior for cats and can be directed to appropriate items. However, if you feel that you must either declaw or give up your cat, we would rather see your cat stay in her home and be your lifelong companion. If you do decide to have your cat declawed, we suggest\* you have the surgery done at the same time she’s spayed (or neutered if your cat is a male), that you only declaw the front paws and that you always keep your cat indoors. Folks who work in animal welfare are pretty consistent in their message: the surgery is usually unnecessary, risks adverse behavior changes in the cat, and is usually painful for the cat. This is different from sterilization: sterilization is (considering the 5 million animals euthanized each year in US shelters) very necessary, usually results in beneficial behavior changes in the animal (decreased aggression, decreased roaming, decreased spraying, etc.), has a rapid recovery time, and has a host of beneficial side-effects (decreased cancer risks, for example). It is foolish to compare declawing to sterilization. I don’t know how I feel about the law. On the one hand, it’s obviously easy to circumvent it. On the other hand, the law might function as a moral statement by the town: it’s a way of broadcasting the message to folks that this is generally not a good idea. And some folks respect the law for its own sake, and won’t look to circumvent it. On balance, I don’t think the law is a bad idea – assuming it makes exceptions for therapeutic declawing. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410/53 "2003-01-24T16:27:29Z")
Crap! Click anywhere on the American Humane Assocation quote to go to the full article. The third and final cite was to the [Denver Dumb Friends League](http://www.ddfl.org/behavior/scratch.htm). Sorry for the crappy coding. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Threadkiller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@Threadkiller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Threadkiller)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410/54 "2003-01-24T16:46:42Z")
Of course if you make declawing illegal, back alley declawing establishments will spring up and people will still be able to get there cats declawed—at much greater risk to the cat. This issue will, of course, decisively divide the country into pro choice and pro cat camps. Pro cat extremists will protest and vandalize veterinarian establishments that offer this service and pro choice advocates will maintain that it is the right of the owner of the cat (who bears the burden of caring for the cat) to make this decision. 😃 Seriously, I’m personally not in favor of declawing (I like indoor/outdoor cats) but I don’t really care what other people want to do. I have also had cat scratch fever (given to me by a clawed cat) but bear no ill will to the cat. I have to admit that I have had two cats declawed, but only because the apartment complex I lived in required it. The cats were fine with it (once they figured out how to climb the cat stand without front claws). They never went outside but I did keep a careful eye on them. Their declawed status made it much easier to give them away to a good home when I got married and moved into a larger apartment that didn’t allow pets. If a government made it illegal to declaw cats, cat ownership would decline. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410/55 "2003-01-24T16:50:21Z")
There’s only a few sites I found with Google searches which are ambivalent about declawing, with the great majority of sites being strongly against it. Seems like those who care greatly about the issue are near-unanimous in recommending against the procedure, but most admit there’s no rigorously collected data supporting the expectation of subsequent behavioral problems. Here’s a well balanced consideration of the [ethics of declawing](http://www.catsonly.com/Eth%20Declawing.htm). Here’s a [relatively neutral](http://www.vetinfo.com/cencyclopedia/cebehavscr.html) page from “[vetinfo.com](http://vetinfo.com)”. Here’s a [relatively ambivalent](http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_declawing_and_its_alternatives.html) page. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410/56 "2003-01-24T17:10:16Z")
It depends on the cat. I could see declawing an overtly aggressive mean cat. Those cats are more likely to get the “river treatment” **SPOOFE** mentioned. Declawing a poor kitten because you are too lazy to train it to scratch on a post is sad. Having had five non-declawed cats over 15 years the destruction total goes: four dining room chairs ruined over about eight years by one particular cute little black Persian (replacement cost $300.00), rug damaged by black and white domestic shorthair (no cost), one office chair destroyed by Ragdoll and Chocolate Point Persian (replacement cost $100.00). Related costs: scratching posts (one huge $150.00, approx. three small $60.00), cat nip $50.00, one large Super Soaker water cannon $20.00) Not having to disfigure and cripple poor little kitties, rendering them defenseless: PRICELESS ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410/57 "2003-01-24T17:35:46Z")
Actually, **Beagle** , it can be an especially bad idea to declaw an aggressive cat: they’ll sometimes start biting instead of scratching, and a cat bite is much more dangerous than a cat scratch. But otherwise, I agree with your post. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410/58 "2003-01-24T17:42:03Z")
Is laser declawing still a no-no in the anti-declawing world? The cat in this case does _not_ have its digit removed. Just no more nails. Further, there is very little pain or recovery time for the cat from this procedure (if done during spaying/neutering you need only put the cat under once as well). For those who maintain it is a ‘simple’ matter to train yoru cat are welcome to come ovwer to my place and have a shot at my cat. My wife and I read books and spent a good deal of time trying to train appropriate claw places. The cat did claw on her designated claw tree mroe often than not but she still had at furniture with gusto and she would cause fairly severe damage to that furniture. Fortunately we were poor and and crap furniture anyway at that point but we had plans for new furniture and that behavior could not be tolerated. As for clipping the nails I tried that too and my cat nearly killed me. Even our vet, who is well practiced at clipping the nails, had a bad time with our cat. The cat fought so vehemently against this that you couldn’t hold her hard enough to keep her still without hurting her. I tried twice myself after being shown. First time she bit me and the second time she managed to lay four separate, fully bleeding scratches on me. Never again. You might be getting the sense that our cat is somewhat of a bitch and you couldn’t be more right. She cuddles with me but she seems to hate every other living thing on the planet (including our other cat who she’s shared a house with for six years…still hisses at the other cat if it gets within three feet of her). As a result this cat likely could never be adopted by anyone else. Our choices were declawing or the pound (we couldn’t make up our mind about a no-kill shelter and if she’d be ok there). She no longer has her front claws and for the life of me seems no different from before or after. FWIW she is strictly an indoor cat. Fortunately the few times she made a dash for the door she got only a few feet out the door, decided the big world scared her and ran back in. She will never ever be roaming outside short of a major mistake on our part. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410/59 "2003-01-24T17:45:04Z")
It’s rather hard to find a non-biased source on the web about anything let along about hot topics like declawing, but here’s the best I could to. [http://www.api4animals.org/doc.asp?ID=555](http://www.api4animals.org/doc.asp?ID=555) from the link: > [@](#): > > Veterinarian Kimberly Harrison refuses to perform declaw procedures. She states that “behavioral problems frequently haunt declawed cats. By far the commonest thing we see is cats not using the litter box. When cats have stress beyond what they can take it often shows up as a litter box problem and declawing makes them stress intolerant, in general, for the rest of their lives.” **Dr. Harrison gets 3 to 12 calls a day about litter box problems in cats and, after ruling out medical problems, 90% of the cats with litter box aversion are declawed cats.** ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410/60 "2003-01-24T17:58:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Is laser declawing still a no-no in the anti-declawing world? The cat in this case does not have its digit removed. Non-laser declawing doesn’t remove the digit, only the tip of the digit (i.e. first knuckle on up). The lasar procedure does the same thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/declawing-a-big-round-of-applause-to-west-hollywood/150410.md?page=4)