# Deconstruction of the Book of Mormon **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287 "2005-03-07T01:45:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/41 "2005-03-09T19:09:20Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > This is a thread on literary deconstructionism. Let’s see if we can get some real chewing on that, okay? Remarkable comment considering that _you were the one_ who first hijacked the thread. > [@dropzone](#): > > Look. I, personally, care very little about your religion. > [@dropzone](#): > > I am itching to do a point by point rip of the entire Mormon belief system but I catch myself and stop. :dubious: > [@dropzone](#): > > and the nitpick that the book’s name is “Revelation,” singular and, to paraphrase **emarkp** , your usage of the term suggests you spend far more time reading analyses of the Bible than the Bible itself. The difference being that _I_ have actually read anti-Mormon works, whereas _you_ apparently haven’t read any Bible analysis. “Revelations” is a common and annoying error, but I’ve never seen it in Bible commentaries. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/42 "2005-03-09T19:32:24Z")
:rolleyes: I know it’s mostly a verbal error that rarely sneaks into print. It was intended as a play on your comment, son. You know, like a joke; something to cut through the dead seriousness of this thread. Yeesh! ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/43 "2005-03-09T20:02:50Z")
We have the archaeological event of the century (comparable to Howard Carter’s discovery of the tomb of Tutankahmen), and NOBODY pays any attention? Ancient Hebrews migrating to North America? Ancient egyptian writings found in upstate New York? Prof. Anthon must have been a dope…why would’nt he want to cover himself in glory…the first scientist to read ancient egyptian texts found in the USA? Yep, there’s a reason that scholars didn’t flock to Palmyra NY…there wasn’t any artifacts, no texts, and joseph Smith made the whole thing up! As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Nobody seems to realize that the discovery of a single egyptian (geniune ) hyroglyphic text in NY state would interest a lot of scientists…so we can safely conclude that nothoing of the kind did happen. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/44 "2005-03-09T20:29:43Z")
You know, I’m sorry for hijacking it, emarkp. I didn’t intend for it to be a full-fledged hijack, I just didn’t want it to fall off the page before someone with knowlege answered. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/45 "2005-03-10T02:58:24Z")
I’m sorry I haven’t answered anything today–the baby’s been sick and I had to take her to prompt care with a 103 fever. So I’m kind of tired, and my brain quit working a few hours ago. Maybe tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/46 "2005-03-10T03:11:03Z")
Don’t be sorry, dangermom. Your baby comes first, last, and always. 103? Wow. That’s not good, especially for a baby. I hope you can bring it down. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/47 "2005-03-10T05:39:13Z")
> [@](#): > > First of all, I only mentioned Revelation because it is the single most common argument against the Book of Mormon, I’ve heard it dozens of times, and I’m surprised it didn’t come up here. It did not come up, here, becuse this is a different sort of crowd than you are apparently used to dealing with. Generally, anyone who drags Rev 22:18-19 out to make a point, here, (any point) gets laughed at pretty heartily. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/48 "2005-03-10T16:06:45Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > But, generally, they’re good people. So poking at what I see as tissue paper, I’m aware, will hurt them. I try not to do it. If someone asks, I’ll wave gently in a direction that might give a hint, but it just feels rude and insulting to go further. But is it a good thing to let lies “as thin as paper” get spread all over the place, just in order not to offend some pleasant individuals who had swallowed said lies? It’s not like Mormons are quietly sitting in thier chapels or temples without attempting to recruit new members, who are going to be lied to too… Should this principle also apply to people believing in, say, astrology? I’m sure there are friendly posters believing in it. Should we abstain from criticizing this other “thin as paper” lie in order not to piss them off? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/49 "2005-03-10T16:32:03Z")
That attitude is why we haven’t had any religious wars over here, **clair**. Some religious violence, as the Mormons will be happy to remind us (I see their Hauns Mill massacre and Carthage City lynchings and raise the Mountain Meadows massacre), but nothing like the Thirty Years War. It is also why the US has always been fertile ground in which to plant new religions. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/50 "2005-03-10T19:06:08Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > But is it a good thing to let lies “as thin as paper” get spread all over the place, just in order not to offend some pleasant individuals who had swallowed said lies? So you’re calling all people who believe in God liars? Are you calling me a liar? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/51 "2005-03-10T19:27:11Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > But is it a good thing to let lies “as thin as paper” get spread all over the place, just in order not to offend some pleasant individuals who had swallowed said lies? What can anyone do to prevent the spread without trampling on people’s rights? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/52 "2005-03-11T01:49:37Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > What can anyone do to prevent the spread without trampling on people’s rights? freedom of religion doesn’t mean your beliefs can’t be challenged. It means the government can’t pass laws that prohibit your worship. It means others can’t persecute you for gathering and worshiping as you choose. I believe Clair was saying that if any religion publishes its beliefs and actively tries to convert people and convince others that their beliefs are right and/or true, then they better be prepared to defend their beliefs. I heartily agree. I respect peoples rights to worship as they choose and believe what they will. I have dear friends in LDS and RLDS {now called Community of Christ} and I wouldn’t stomp on their feelings or beliefs. If they tried to convert me or raised the issue I’ll tell they exactly what I think. This doesn’t just apply to the BOM. There is a lot of myth and tradition in Religion in general and I think we have every right to challenge it when people try to spread their “truth” It’s called tuff love. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/53 "2005-03-11T02:29:39Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I believe Clair was saying that if any religion publishes its beliefs and actively tries to convert people and convince others that their beliefs are right and/or true, then they better be prepared to defend their beliefs. I heartily agree. Well, sure. We can challenge their beliefs, but if they stick by them, what then? He used the term “let” which could mean “let them do it unchallenged” or could mean “let them do it at all.” How far should the challenges extend? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/54 "2005-03-11T13:24:34Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Well, sure. We can challenge their beliefs, but if they stick by them, what then? He used the term “let” which could mean “let them do it unchallenged” or could mean “let them do it at all.” How far should the challenges extend? I won’t speak for Clair but I think we need to support free speech but not let the context of “religous freedom” excuse their behavior. Example; In my home town a religous group would post people on the street corners and read VERY loudly from the Bible. It drove buisiness away from local stores and diners. I think they should have been arrested for disturbing the peace and made to stop, but becuase of the religous freedom aspect the police didn’t do anything. For the most part I would hold the challenge to the printed and spoken word.I think the process of discussion and debate is very helpful in defining and refining our beliefs.I support peoples right to worship as they choose but when their choices encroach on others lives in some way they should be prepared to accept the consequences without useing God as an excuse. Think about it. That’s what the terrorists are doing. ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/55 "2005-03-11T17:16:23Z")
For what it’s worth, here’s a thirty-year-old book called [Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon?](http://thedigitalvoice.com/enigma/wrw/1977DavB.htm) (well, parts of it). As I recall, they argue that large chunks of _TBoM_ actually came from an unpublished novel that Smith had gotten his hands on. There is also some stuff on the _Pearl of Great Price_/“Reformed Egyptian” flap. ---
**Author:** ![Eran\_of\_Arcadia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eran_of_arcadia/32/7277_2.png) [@Eran\_of\_Arcadia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eran_of_Arcadia)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2005, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/56 "2005-03-12T17:26:04Z")
Like I said, pretty much every Latter-day Saint has heard all these arguments before and seen them debunked. No one is going to destroy our “frail little beliefs” by repeating the same stuff I, at least, have heard dozens of times. Yes, there are many books out there purporting to debunk the Book of Mormon. Their arguments tend not to hold water. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2005, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/57 "2005-03-13T02:52:51Z")
> [@emarkp](#): > > So you’re calling all people who believe in God liars? > > Are you calling me a liar? Let’s not descend into a trainwreck over the unsatisfactory definition of “lie”. Usually the word is used to mean “knowing untruth”, but it can also be used to mean “untruth, knowing or not”. One can for example speak of someone spreading a lie, meaning not that the spreader of the lie knows they are spreading an untruth but that they are unknowingly spreading someone else’s knowing untruth. I don’t think that anyone is suggesting that any Morman in this thread, or 99.9% of modern Mormans in general, are liars in the knowing untruth sense. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2005, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/58 "2005-03-13T06:52:10Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Usually the word is used to mean “knowing untruth”, but it can also be used to mean “untruth, knowing or not”. Yes, and to call all who believe in God, he’d better have a proof of the nonexistence of God handy, or shut his yap. Problem is, such a proof isn’t possible. > [@](#): > > I don’t think that anyone is suggesting that any Morman in this thread, or 99.9% of modern Mormans in general, are liars in the knowing untruth sense. There are no such thing as Morm **a** ns (at least not that I know of). Hard atheists who think they know the truth value of all spirituality irritate me, because their claims are impossible to prove, and in fact require more faith than that of a Christian, Hindu, Muslim, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Leroy\_Brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@Leroy\_Brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leroy_Brown)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2005, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/59 "2005-03-13T07:05:24Z")
> [@Eran of Arcadia](#): > > First of all, I only mentioned Revelation because it is the single most common argument against the Book of Mormon, I’ve heard it dozens of times, and I’m surprised it didn’t come up here. My point on the spiritual aspect is only that we tend not to get carried away regarding the literal truth of the book not because we doubt it but because it’s pointless. I’ve heard all the objections raised here before many times, and heard them refuted. **I have spiritual reasons for believing the Book of Mormon is factually true**. **Bolding mine**. The BoM closes with “Moroni’s challenge” for the reader to pray for spiritual confirmation that the BoM is true. Described affirmations run the range from subtle feelings of peace to overwhelming joy. Joseph Smith called the Book of Mormon the keystone of the church. If the BoM is true, the prophecies it contains about the restoration of the Lord’s true church in the Latter Days is true; ergo, Joseph Smith was a true prophet and his further translations of other documents are true. If we agree that a “burning of the bosom” after taking Moroni’s challenge is ultimate proof of the book’s/church’s truth, wouldn’t a lack of said burning indicate their falseness? As a Mormon missionary, I would counter this arguement by telling people that they needed to pray with “pure intent”. No burning didn’t mean the book was false, it only meant the reader prayed under false pretenses or needed to study more. It was this kind of circular reasoning that contributed to my break from Mormonism. I agree in large part that looking for physical proof in sprirtual matters is pointless, but logic is another matter. BTW I wasn’t excommunicated. I just haven’t gotten around to having my name removed from the church’s records (not worth the conflict with family - yet.) I just ordered the new H.P. Lovecraft collection. Perhaps Cthutlu has the answer. I’ll read the book, pray about it and let you know. A cheap shot? Yes, but it’s not too far removed from the logic of Moroni’s challenge. Eran, this is not meant as an attack. I quoted your post because I think it raises some interesting aspects about proof of Book of Mormon’s truth that other Dopers may not be aware of. I’ll understand if you choose to label me a bitter ex-mo who tortures kittens and prays to Baal in his basement. Not making any presumptions, it just seems to be the standard treatment dished out by Mormons to apostates. I’m sure you’re a fine human being and we’d get along nicely in person as long as we avoided religion as a topic. I AM looking forward to spending next weekend in Vegas, though! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2005, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/60 "2005-03-13T09:54:05Z")
> [@emarkp](#): > > Yes, and to call all who believe in God, he’d better have a proof of the nonexistence of God handy, or shut his yap. > > Problem is, such a proof isn’t possible. > > There are no such thing as Morm **a** ns (at least not that I know of). > > Hard atheists who think they know the truth value of all spirituality irritate me, because their claims are impossible to prove, and in fact require more faith than that of a Christian, Hindu, Muslim, etc. Oooh, are we a bit touchy and defensive? At all? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287.md?page=4)