# Deconstruction of the Book of Mormon **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287 "2005-03-07T01:45:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2005, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/61 "2005-03-13T12:52:20Z")
As a former missionary for the Mormon Church, what were your experience when proselytizing in upper-class neighborhoods? Surely educated people arenot likely to be creduluos enough to accpet the BOM…so do areas like Beverly Hills, Ann Arbor, San Marino, etc. attract many missionaries? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2005, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/62 "2005-03-13T14:58:31Z")
Just a reminder, folks: the topic is the deconstruction of the Book of Mormon. It is not a general attack on or defense of religious belief or LDS religious belief. It is not a an attack on or defense of anyone’s personal beliefs. We’ve got lots of threads for that stuff and you can always start a new one if you feel they are inadequate to your needs Try to stick to taking relevant information from or regarding the Book of Mormon and discussing that in light of known historical, archeological, linguistic, (or even theological) traditions. Neither dismissing the book or its adherents when one does not really know the actual text or tradition or taking personal umbrage at the the language of skeptics will move this discussion forward. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2005, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/63 "2005-03-13T16:24:30Z")
[QUOTE] > [@emarkp](#): > > Yes, and to call all who believe in God, he’d better have a proof of the nonexistence of God handy, or shut his yap. > > Problem is, such a proof isn’t possible. You are correct in that there is no scientific eveidence to prove or disprove the existance of God. My choice is to believe based or personnel experiences. He did not call all who believed in God liars. That was your interpertation of the statement. Science and worship are both involved in the search for truth. Jesus told us to not embrace the traditons and the teachings of man. When a religion makes outrageous claims that can be examined by any of the sciences then those who are committed to the truth should be willing to look at and consider what science has to say. I once believed the Book of Mormon story. Over the course of own spiritual searching I came to believe otherwise. There may not be sufficient evidence to completely disprove the J. Smith story but for me there was enough to tip the scales toward highly unlikely. Coming up with thin evidence or some rationlization to allow the possibility to remain open is not the same as disproving contradictory evidence. . > [@](#): > > Hard atheists who think they know the truth value of all spirituality irritate me, because their claims are impossible to prove, and in fact require more faith than that of a Christian, Hindu, Muslim, etc. I agree with you. I support someones right to not believe if thats their choice. It seems egotistical and narrow minded to think that everybody who believes in God are either delusional or a fool, just becuase you don’t believe. There are atheists on SDMB that freely admit the possibility of God’s existance and respect peoples right to believe. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/64 "2005-03-13T16:37:40Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > As a former missionary for the Mormon Church, what were your experience when proselytizing in upper-class neighborhoods? Surely educated people arenot likely to be creduluos enough to accpet the BOM…so do areas like Beverly Hills, Ann Arbor, San Marino, etc. attract many missionaries? There are millions of members of the LDS and RLDS church. There are even members of other denominations which have accepted the BOM. Do you really think none of these people are highly educated? Religous belief seems to reside in a different area of the brain. People hold on very tightly to traditional beliefs even in the face of evidence against them. It’s like hearing something awful about your mother or your dearest friend. Even if there’s evidence your gut reaction is to think “There must be some other explanation” When a plausible explanation is offered {apologetics} it is eagerly accepted. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/65 "2005-03-13T17:01:26Z")
> [@Eran of Arcadia](#): > > Like I said, pretty much every Latter-day Saint has heard all these arguments before and seen them debunked. No one is going to destroy our “frail little beliefs” by repeating the same stuff I, at least, have heard dozens of times. Yes, there are many books out there purporting to debunk the Book of Mormon. Their arguments tend not to hold water. Eran, I respect your right to believe what you will but just for the sake of accuracy Debunk means to prove something false. In general refute means the same thing although it can just mean denial. Offering an alternative explanantion that leaves the possiblity open as in “maybe it’s true but maybe it isn’t” is NOT debunking. Rationalization :to bring into accord with reason or cause something to seem reasonable: to attribute (one’s actions) to rational and creditable motives without analysis of true and especially unconscious motives;occurs in a lot of areas of life. Religous belief is heavy with it. It’s just one of the things humans have to deal with as we seek the truth. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2005, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/66 "2005-03-13T17:47:37Z")
Well, I still don’t have any time to sit down and compose a real reply to this thread–I’m sorry about that, but it’s just been too crazy around here to spend time on the computer–but Dopers may be interested to know that studies have shown that Mormons tend to correlate education with faithfulness; that is, more educated Mormons are also more likely to be faithful. I don’t try to explain this, I’m just throwing the information out there. (Mormons place a high value on education.) That said, missionary work is well-known to be more difficult in wealthy areas, regardless of educational attainment. Former missionaries will know more about that than I will. The baby is fine now, btw–she just has an ear infection, her very first one. We’ve been pretty sleepless around here. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Eran\_of\_Arcadia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eran_of_arcadia/32/7277_2.png) [@Eran\_of\_Arcadia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eran_of_Arcadia)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/67 "2005-03-15T05:08:32Z")
For what it’s worth, I spent 6 months serving in the Spanish ward that covers San Marino, but as no one there speaks Spanish, I didn’t go there much. (It also covered almost all of Pasadena, all of South Pasadena, and a lot of other places thereabouts). And debunk, refute, whatever; my point is not that the anti-Book of Mormon arguments are conclusively false but that having heard them, we see them as such and our beliefs are not threatened by hearing them again. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/68 "2005-03-16T13:50:44Z")
> [@Eran of Arcadia](#): > > And debunk, refute, whatever; my point is not that the anti-Book of Mormon arguments are conclusively false but that having heard them, we see them as such and our beliefs are not threatened by hearing them again. That’s all. Fair enough. I think it is importent to understand the difference. Faith in God requires a committment to the truth. The truth seems to be that there is evidence that J. Smith story of where the Book of Mormon came from is untrue. At this time that evidence is inconclusive. Perhaps more will be discovered. For me the spiritual value of the BOM has nothing to do with it’s origin. The term scripture is a construct of man and studying the “Holy Books” isn’t much different than studying any other book. There’s always a way to rationalize the evidence away and maintain a belief. It’s up to you to decide how honest you’re being with yourself. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/69 "2005-03-16T15:14:02Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > There are even members of other denominations which have accepted the BOM. There are? CHRISTIAN denominations? I’d be interested in hearing more, since most Christian denominations consider Mormon teachings heretical, clear down to the very nature of God. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/70 "2005-03-16T18:53:06Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > There are? CHRISTIAN denominations? I’d be interested in hearing more, since most Christian denominations consider Mormon teachings heretical, clear down to the very nature of God. [http://www.centerplace.org/library/bofm/baptistversionofbofm.htm](http://www.centerplace.org/library/bofm/baptistversionofbofm.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Eran\_of\_Arcadia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eran_of_arcadia/32/7277_2.png) [@Eran\_of\_Arcadia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eran_of_Arcadia)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/71 "2005-03-16T21:49:32Z")
Also, I have met individuals who believe the Book of Mormon is true but belong to denominations that don’t; but for whatever reason, they maintain membership in their other denomination. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/72 "2005-03-16T22:10:58Z")
**cosmosdan** , **dropzone** asked about Protestant _denominations_ that accepted the Book of Mormon. You came up with _an individual_ who has, (and, based on his own words, an individual who has a rather tenuous grasp on the meaning and history of much of Protestant belief). Now I figure he can believe whatever he chooses, (and, moreso, as a member of a sect that, until the very recent coup by the etreme Right, was extraordinarily committed to individual belief), but he does not a denomination make. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/73 "2005-03-16T22:36:39Z")
Aw, Tom, I’d settle for ANY Christian denominations, not just Protestants, who accept the BoM as true. Sure, you can find some individuals (Are you saying that since the Right Wing takeover the Southern Baptists FINALLY have **central beliefs shared by _all_ congregations** that go beyond, “We’re not Methodists and we _absolutely_ aren’t Episcopalians?” Too bad; it was always fun getting members of two congregations into fights over theology. ☹ ) who accept it. You can find denominations, like the RCC, who will change the subject by saying, “We like the focus on families and being nice,” but former Mormons will have to get re-baptized if they want to convert and the BoM is treated with as much acceptance as “The DaVinci Code.” Face it, Judaism and Islam have more in common with Christianity and to find a denomination (like you say, it takes more than one person to make one) that accepts the BoM as anything but heretical fiction is unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/74 "2005-03-16T22:38:41Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > **cosmosdan** , **dropzone** asked about Protestant _denominations_ that accepted the Book of Mormon. You came up with _an individual_ who has, (and, based on his own words, an individual who has a rather tenuous grasp on the meaning and history of much of Protestant belief). > Now I figure he can believe whatever he chooses, (and, moreso, as a member of a sect that, until the very recent coup by the etreme Right, was extraordinarily committed to individual belief), but he does not a denomination make. My mistake. My comment was poorly worded, I should have said individuals from other denominations. On that same page there are stories of others who have accepted the BOM. Sorry dropzone, my bad. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/75 "2005-03-16T22:43:59Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > former Mormons will have to get re-baptized if they want to convert and the BoM is treated with as much acceptance as “The DaVinci Code.” Face it, Judaism and Islam have more in common with Christianity. I’m surprised to hear you say that. LDS do preach Christ as saviour and the BOM is said to be an additional testimony of the divinity of Christ. How do you figure Judaism and Islam have more in common? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/76 "2005-03-16T22:47:13Z")
HEY!!! I just reread my post. I said \*\*members \*\* of other denominations. I officially retract my apology. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/77 "2005-03-16T22:49:26Z")
Yeah? Then I retract the nice thank you I was writing! TWO can play THIS game, pal! _big wink_ ---
**Author:** ![jeffh3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/34f0e0/32.png) [@jeffh3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeffh3000)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/78 "2005-03-16T22:58:57Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > But is it a good thing to let lies “as thin as paper” get spread all over the place, just in order not to offend some pleasant individuals who had swallowed said lies? It’s not like Mormons are quietly sitting in thier chapels or temples without attempting to recruit new members, who are going to be lied to too… Ok, there are clearly problems with the book of mormon, however this statement I take issue with. It is unfair to call mormons liars, because they DO believe what they are saying and teaching to new members. Whether they is right or not is a seperate issue. While self deception may be an issue, but liars they are not. We simply have to delineate here between attacking individuals and discussing errors in the book of mormon. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/79 "2005-03-16T23:05:33Z")
Now, where was I? Oh yeah… Not being Trinitarians, our Jewish and Muslim pals may disagree with me on the comparison but mainstream Christians, Jews, and Muslims agree on the single (in “Pearl of Great Price” Moses and Abraham seem to disagree on that one), eternal, and universal nature of God. ---
**Author:** ![jeffh3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/34f0e0/32.png) [@jeffh3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeffh3000)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287/80 "2005-03-16T23:31:49Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Now, where was I? Oh yeah… > > Not being Trinitarians, our Jewish and Muslim pals may disagree with me on the comparison but mainstream Christians, Jews, and Muslims agree on the single (in “Pearl of Great Price” Moses and Abraham seem to disagree on that one), eternal, and universal nature of God. Well and there is also the popular christian debate that the Mormon Jesus can not be the same Jesus that christians believe in. [example here](http://www.carm.org/lds/lds_jesus.htm) This is also not helped by LDS President Hinckley’s statement in June 1998 when mormons were accused of not believing in Jesus > [@](#): > > No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deconstruction-of-the-book-of-mormon/293287.md?page=5)