# Decreasing gun violence/crime WITHOUT restricting the 2nd Amendment **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 14, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443 "2014-05-14T15:41:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MacTech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MacTech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacTech)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/21 "2014-05-14T17:34:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > As is the OP of this thread: No changes in the 2nd Amendment. Felons lose their 2A rights, do they not? All I’m saying is commit a felony, say bye-bye to your gun rights Nonviolent felons could petition for rights restoration after they have served their sentence and have been successfully rehabilitated ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/22 "2014-05-14T17:40:10Z")
One law I’d like to see is a “if you guess wrong, you pay the price” law. In essence, it would say that if you shoot someone, seemingly in self-defense, because you _thought_ they had a gun out that they might be about to use on you, and you’re wrong about that (either they weren’t carrying, or were carrying but the weapon was holstered, or out of immediate reach, then you’re guilty of second-degree murder. Another one is a restriction of the ‘castle doctrine’ to not apply to your yard (except when you were protecting your family and guests who were outdoors at the time) or outbuildings (unless you had reason to believe family or guests might be in them). No, you shouldn’t be able to shoot someone for cutting through your yard, or poking around in your toolshed. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/23 "2014-05-14T17:43:08Z")
Add to that, if you leave a gun unsecured and someone is killed with it, example if a child picks it up and discharges it, you’re charged with murder. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/24 "2014-05-14T17:43:14Z")
> [@MacTech](#): > > Felons lose their 2A rights, do they not? All I’m saying is commit a felony, say bye-bye to your gun rights > > Nonviolent felons could petition for rights restoration after they have served their sentence and have been successfully rehabilitated “Kid, have you rehabilitated yourself?” 1. Everyone loses their gun rights - and most of their other rights - while serving their sentence. 2. The NRA’s been on a pretty successful crusade to make it easier to get your gun rights back after doing your time, even after violent crimes. Nice guys, they are. Here’s a dual-purpose suggestion: a felon gets his gun rights restored 10 years after his voting rights get restored. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/25 "2014-05-14T17:44:57Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Add to that, if you leave a gun unsecured and someone is killed with it, example if a child picks it up and discharges it, you’re charged with murder. Murder? I think that’s excessive. Manslaughter, though, I could go along with. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/26 "2014-05-14T17:55:18Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Isn’t there a “blame the victim” assumption behind your logic here? Or are you arguing that black male shooting victims are somehow responsible for their own deaths? Who do you think is responsible? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/27 "2014-05-14T17:56:22Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Add to that, if you leave a gun unsecured and someone is killed with it, example if a child picks it up and discharges it, you’re charged with murder. You want to drastically change the definition of “murder”, then. Since that’s not at all what it means now. Might want to pick another word there. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/28 "2014-05-14T17:56:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So…more abortions and gay marriages? Sounds like a plan to me. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/29 "2014-05-14T17:59:08Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > You want to drastically change the definition of “murder”, then. Since that’s not at all what it means now. Might want to pick another word there. Fine, can we say “charged with _something serious_ then?” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/30 "2014-05-14T18:03:30Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > If we’re going to be the one country on earth with relatively free access to deadly firearms, we ought to cultivate a culture of healthy respect for their power. And by “respect” I don’t mean “paranoia”. We already have paranoia, what we lack is education. We have 700 accidental gun deaths every year with our current level of gun education, I don’t know how much lower we can drive that number with education but I bet it would go down at least a little bit. > [@MacTech](#): > > Infringement on the 2A, charging for a guaranteed right, raising the cost to discriminate against low income citizens Heller didn’t seem to find licenesing and registration requirements problematic. We currently have a nominal NICS background check fee paid every time you buy a gun from a store. As long as the fee isn’t burdensome, I don’t see why we couldn’t impose a licensing and registration requirement. > [@](#): > > Ineffective and a waste of taxpayer money, multiple ways to change the rifling marks, the very act of firing the gun slowly changes the profile of the lands and grooves, a brand new barrel will not have the same pattern as one that has fired multiple rounds It is not very easy to wipe out the ballistic fingerprint of your gun without damaging your gun (or swapping out parts). If you have to leave a ballistic fingerprint every year, I suspect it would be useful in some minority of cases where a criminal decides to commit a crime with a gun he has registered in his own name. The problem with the idea is not that forensic ballistics is too easy to circumvent. The problem with the ballistic fingerprint idea is that an annual certification of 300 million guns every year would be a fucking nightmare and the people most likey to engage in crime would never register their guns (at least not the ones they intend to use for crimes). Licensing and registration is really only useful to reduce the flow of guns into the hands of people who are not allowed to own guns through straw purchases. > [@](#): > > Ineffective, criminal could steal a gun or use another weapon instead, this rule inconveniences collectors and hobbyists Its ineffective but not because criminals could steal a gun. Its ineffective because crimibnals aren’t getting their guns from people taht would impose taht waiting period while people who might really need a gun now have to wait 2 weeks. > [@](#): > > already implemented on Federal Form 4473 I don’t recall getting a psychiatrist’s note to fill out form 4473. But I think the psych evaluation requirement is probably unconstitutional and a huge infringemetn on the second amendment. > [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Ballpark, 1/2 of gun deaths are suicides. While many of those are impulsive, and absent the gun, will choose methods with less guaranteed lethality, or will reconsider attempting suicide, IMHO you aren’t making a big dent in the number of those deaths by restricting firearms access from competent adults. I used to think we could reduce suicide with gun control, but after comparing suicide rates in developed countries, our suicide rate is right about in the middle despite having a shitload of guns. So I no longer think that gun control can significantly reduce suicides. > [@](#): > > ~35-40% are committed in the course of organized criminal activities; the participants in which, are already prohibited from owning a firearm. Not to mention their organized criminal activities are already illegal—primarily the drug trade. Getting rid of The War on Some Drugs may help lower this number. Beer distributors these days don’t use Tommy guns to settle territorial disputes, but back during Prohibition, they did. Decriminalizing drugs might make a difference, I agree. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > This could be interpreted as a new restriction on 2nd Amendment rights, couldn’t it? I think you are going to have to define what you mean by the second amendment right. > [@Debaser](#): > > Expand the NRA’s child safety program. It’s called the “Eddie Eagle” program and consists of simple rules for kids who find a gun: > > 1. Stop. > 2. Don’t touch. > 3. Leave the area. > 4. Tell an adult. > > It should be mandatory for kindergartens everywhere. And all of elementary school until they are 10 when they should have shooting class in physical education. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/31 "2014-05-14T18:09:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And all of elementary school until they are 10 when they should have shooting class in physical education. Oh, don’t even get me started on how to fix gym class! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/32 "2014-05-14T18:17:30Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > One law I’d like to see is a “if you guess wrong, you pay the price” law. > > In essence, it would say that if you shoot someone, seemingly in self-defense, because you _thought_ they had a gun out that they might be about to use on you, and you’re wrong about that (either they weren’t carrying, or were carrying but the weapon was holstered, or out of immediate reach, then you’re guilty of second-degree murder. I don’t see how this would reduce gun deaths by any appreciable amount (the number of justified gun killings is very low to begin with). Can you give me an example of when someone has gotten away with murder in the sort of situation you are talking about? > [@](#): > > Another one is a restriction of the ‘castle doctrine’ to not apply to your yard (except when you were protecting your family and guests who were outdoors at the time) or outbuildings (unless you had reason to believe family or guests might be in them). No, you shouldn’t be able to shoot someone for cutting through your yard, or poking around in your toolshed. Once again, how often does this sort of thing happen and where is it legal to shoot someone just for cutting across your lawn or poking around in your toolshed? > [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Add to that, if you leave a gun unsecured and someone is killed with it, example if a child picks it up and discharges it, you’re charged with murder. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > Murder? I think that’s excessive. Manslaughter, though, I could go along with. > [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Fine, can we say “charged with _something serious_ then?” We already have that in almost every state. The charge runs from more amorphous felony child endangerment that carries a sentence of up to 50 years, to manslaughter and in some states there are statues taht are specific to the situation you are talking about that punishes people whose unsecured firearms result in a dead child. Calling it murder usually just means that the minimum sentence goes from 5 years to 20 years and the maximum sentence goes from 50 years to life. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/33 "2014-05-14T18:19:49Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Who do you think is responsible? I’m going to go out on a limb and say the people who shot them are responsible. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/34 "2014-05-14T18:43:09Z")
End the culture of pointlessly polarized politics in the US. Currently the loudest and most prominent members of any side of a debate seem to feel they must take their opponents’ views and reject every single one of them, refusing to give a millimetre on anything. In the case of guns, it’s most noticeable (to me - I don’t claim to be unbiased) among the pro-gun types who will oppose anything that even hints at the idea that there’s any link between guns/gun availability and people being shot. For example, you can often see people insisting that would-be criminals will simply obtain a gun illegally, and so any restrictions are pointless. Anyone thinking rationally, rather than ideologically, would see that this is an extreme oversimplification in more ways than one. The pro-gun lobby should be the loudest voices decrying gun violence - without it, no one would oppose their hobby. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/35 "2014-05-14T18:49:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m going to go out on a limb and say the people who shot them are responsible. Who is that? ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/36 "2014-05-14T19:22:17Z")
Education. Knowledge is power. There are many young people who will never encounter a firearm in their home. Or get any training from a parent or trusted individual. This does not mean that they won’t encounter a gun at some time in the larger, real world. Guns are just another mechanical device. Dangerous if you don’t understand how they work, simple to disarm and check for safety if you do. Every young person should be taught how to handle a firearm. The ABC’s of guns. [http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4\_750001\_750051\_757990\_-1\_757978\_757978\_image](http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_757990_-1_757978_757978_image) **Five Basic Handgun Safety Rules** Always keep your firearm pointed in a safe direction. Treat **ALL firearms as if they were loaded.** Keep your trigger finger outside the trigger guard and off of the trigger until you are ready to fire. Be certain of your target, your line of fire, and what lies beyond your target. Always wear appropriate eye and ear protection when shooting and maintaining your firearm. People un-educated in gun handling, children or adults, will pull the magazine out of the gun and think that the gun is empty, ignoring that last bullet that might be in the chamber. And the #1 basic rule is to never, ever point the thing at anything that you don’t want to shoot. Even if you are absolutely certain that it is unloaded, especially then. Even when it seems safe, even when you _know_ it is unloaded. You may have kids and a home that will never, ever have a firearm in it. You may be completely against the whole idea of guns. But still, you and your kids should know how to handle them, what to do when you find one, how to handle one safely if you have to take one away from someone who may be about to harm themselves, etc. You may be very anti-gun, you may never expect to see one, but if you do you need to have this knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/37 "2014-05-14T20:10:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t see how this would reduce gun deaths by any appreciable amount (the number of justified gun killings is very low to begin with). Can you give me an example of when someone has gotten away with murder in the sort of situation you are talking about? Guy named Dunn was in the news a little while ago. Apparently the only thing he was convicted of was for continuing to shoot at the car as it was driving away. [QUOTE] Once again, how often does this sort of thing happen and where is it legal to shoot someone just for cutting across your lawn or poking around in your toolshed?It’s happened a number of times this year. I’ve got cites already looked up on my home computer; I’ll try to remember to post them here tonight. Thing is, the law is kinda blurry, and the permissive climate (SYG, expansion of ‘castle’ doctrine to include one’s property and not just one’s house) makes some gun owners think they can get away with murder if someone’s on their property, or if they say the right words (“I’m in fear for my safety, and I’ll shoot if I have to” or similar words), even when the law isn’t on their side. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/38 "2014-05-14T20:11:42Z")
Licensing and registration for handguns and their owners. Early childhood education and exposure to guns in a controlled environment. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/39 "2014-05-14T20:22:50Z")
Education I think is the most important thing. Not just skills, but the facts, ma’am. I find that both the pro- and anti- sides have a _terrible_ definition of mental illness and how that relates to guns. They want to restrict it to “mentally ill people,” but whoTF is that? The 26.2% of Americans with a diagnosable mental illness (NIMH)? The 6.7%+ who are depressed? The ~1% schizophrenics, who are oh-so scary in movies, yet aren’t actually associated with violence? Some on the anti-gun left sometimes turn into a law-and-order conservative on this issue. “Snake phobia? That’s crazy, no gun for you! Ever!” Safety, what **Dallas Jones** explains (although the safety equipment rule is usually removed from the more common “4 rules.”) Some people have serious phobias of firearms, as in full body quivering. You may not wish to own one or hold one, but if you cannot be near one then I don’t trust your safety skills if you do have to encounter one. Also, cockpunches should be legal if a friend waves a gun around in your direction. Mass shootings are an emotional thing. But they are very rare, and media coverage is huge making them seem more frequent, like how people think stranger kidnapping are common due to their enormity. We can’t prevent all death but we should look to what is actually causing it. X kids die in a school shooting, while 5X died in the same day in gang violence. And also, 5X the next day, and so on. One kid got shot and the nation went crazy, The fact that the news came from Florida should make people realize that this isn’t typical. People debate “stand your ground” without it being an issue in that case or even knowing what it entails (I again count both sides here). If we were to reform that, you’d first have to demonstrate that it is a problem in the first place. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And all of elementary school until they are 10 when they should have shooting class in physical education. No way! High school PE sucked enough, at least a shooting class would make it tolerable up to age 18. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/40 "2014-05-14T20:32:48Z")
Are there any hard statistics that show that Eddie Eagle programs(and other gun safety/training programs) work in reducing gun related accidents? If so, I’ll support them, but if they turn out to be as effective as the _D.A.R.E._ program…not so much. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443.md?page=3)