# Decreasing gun violence/crime WITHOUT restricting the 2nd Amendment **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 14, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443 "2014-05-14T15:41:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/41 "2014-05-14T20:36:14Z")
\*\*Czarcasm \*\*- I notice you hadn’t responded to[this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17370715&postcount=373). You ask a lot of questions but avoid responding. Did you miss it or was that intentional? Just trying to gauge if you are serious and if it’s worth the time to engage. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/42 "2014-05-14T20:41:57Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > \*\*Czarcasm \*\*- I notice you hadn’t responded to[this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17370715&postcount=373). You ask a lot of questions but avoid responding. Did you miss it or was that intentional? Just trying to gauge if you are serious and if it’s worth the time to engage. That question from another thread on another subject? Actually, I did miss it. When I get a chance I’ll hop on over there and see if I have an answer for it. Now…back to the topic of _this_ thread. People have made a few suggestions in this thread, and I have had questions about whether some of them fall afoul of the OP’s premise that any solutions must not change or limit the 2nd Amendment in any way. Which ones in this thread do you think fall on the right side of that line? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/43 "2014-05-14T21:08:08Z")
End the War on Drugs. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/44 "2014-05-14T21:10:23Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > End the War on Drugs. Simple…and simple ain’t always wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/45 "2014-05-14T21:22:58Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There seems to be a correlation between crowding COMBINED with poverty and gun violence - so either decrease the population density or increase general wealth. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > Reduce poverty and income inequality. This. Give everyone who doesn’t have $50 million enough money to get their bank account up to $50 million. This will end poverty and thus most petty crimes. Especially people stealing for money like knocking up 7-11s and home break ins. This will also end a lof of gang violence as they will no longer be so poor that they rely on selling drugs to get by. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/46 "2014-05-14T21:27:08Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > This. > > Give everyone who doesn’t have $50 million enough money to get their bank account up to $50 million. And sometimes it is. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/47 "2014-05-14T22:27:26Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Give everyone who doesn’t have $50 million enough money to get their bank account up to $50 million. Let’s see: 300,000,000 Americans who have less than $1M in their bank accounts x $50,000,000 each is $15,000,000,000,000,000. That’s fifteen quadrillion dollars. That’s what, a thousand times U.S. GDP? I’ll look under the sofa cushions. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/48 "2014-05-14T22:44:23Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Who is that? Seriously? The person that shot the victim. I can’t think of any way to break down that concept to simpler terms. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/49 "2014-05-14T23:04:24Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Ok, but is it clear how the Second Amendment is currently defined by the Supremes? > > If so, can we have the thumbnail description, so we know what the parameters of the discussion are? > > If not…? At the federal level, it’s nebulous at best. It may come down to a case-by-case ruling on things like waiting periods, licensing requirements, registration, mandatory storage laws, etc. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > One law I’d like to see is a “if you guess wrong, you pay the price” law. > > In essence, it would say that if you shoot someone, seemingly in self-defense, because you _thought_ they had a gun out that they might be about to use on you, and you’re wrong about that (either they weren’t carrying, or were carrying but the weapon was holstered, or out of immediate reach, then you’re guilty of second-degree murder. Hypothetical (under your proposed law): an armed, 100 lb woman is being approached by her (historically, documented) abusive, 180 lb boyfriend/husband. She pulls the trigger, kills him. What happens to her? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/50 "2014-05-14T23:28:22Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Add to that, if you leave a gun unsecured and someone is killed with it, example if a child picks it up and discharges it, you’re charged with murder. Fail. Murder requires intent to kill. At most, this could be charged as negligent homicide, and even that is a stretch. If the shooter commits a felony by stealing a gun, the gun’s lawful owner should not be held responsible for later crimes committed with the stolen weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/51 "2014-05-14T23:31:40Z")
The biggest impact is reducing overall crime and the temptation of crime: End the war on (some) drugs - thereby reducing crime, criminals, and a fair amount of cash business. Fix the inner city schools where crime is predominant. Better options, better training, etc. Change how firearms are viewed: Elective course on firearms in Middle School Required bit on safety along with the usual sex and drugs stuff. I don’t think it is too effective (yet), but at least TRY to get the conversation going instead of ignoring the topic. Change how we buy firearms: Clean up the Instant Background Check (and keep it Instant). This mainly revolves around the need for better tracking of mental health. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/52 "2014-05-14T23:32:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This could be interpreted as a new restriction on 2nd Amendment rights, couldn’t it? Not really. My state currently has a law that makes possession of a firearm by a convicted felon a felony offense. Carries a sentence of up to 10 years in prison. I suspect that other states have similar laws. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/53 "2014-05-15T01:35:20Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Seriously? The person that shot the victim. I can’t think of any way to break down that concept to simpler terms. The FBI keeps stats on who kills who. (To the best they can, given most murderers aren’t eager to claim credit.) Double check their stats, but IIRC most of the time, the same ethnicity/race kills the same victim. Inter-racial violence is comparatively rare. Therefore, I made the inference that the horrifically high rate of violent death among African-Americans resulted from a horrifically high violent crime rate among African-Americans. Again, most of that is likely due to organized crime killings, (for a given value of “organized”: gang members killing each other counts) mostly the drug trade. But go look at the stats. I certainly could have remembered them wrong. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/54 "2014-05-15T02:33:57Z")
How about encouraging - NOT requiring, mind you - safe storage, as in those quick-access safes, including the ones that mount in vehicles. I’m not sure how you would do this, but I do think all gun shops should _offer_ them. They might not need much encouragement, don’t most stores of any kind want to sell their customers accessories? Motorcycle dealers sell helmets even where they are not legally required. I can picture the gun culture changing to where most gunowners have one, which would cut down on stolen guns. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/55 "2014-05-16T06:04:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Gun violence and/or crimes involving guns have decreased by about 50% in the last 20 years. So - keep doing what we’re doing? Whatever it is. Well, I agree, but I respectfully doubt whether you do. The following chart shows the decline in crime over the past 20 years. It is superimposed on the decline in lead in the environment, 20 years earlier when one age’s criminals were still experiencing brain development. [http://www.motherjones.com/files/Lead\_Crime\_325.gif](http://www.motherjones.com/files/Lead_Crime_325.gif) More: [Lead: America’s Real Criminal Element – Mother Jones](http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline) Still more: [Lead and Crime: A Linkfest - By Kevin Drum, Mother Jones](http://www.lead.org.au/lanv13n2/lanv13n2-2.html) It’s a striking correlation, but one that hasn’t been fully established yet. If it is, further lead abatement wouldn’t have effects as dramatic but it would probably be cost effective. Governmental program. I have a suspicion that the effectiveness of the handgun as a home defense tool is overrated. I assert that evidence on this question is unsettled and frankly not especially good. So I advocate ramping up the science: we should spend some millions generating harder evidence on personal risk assessment and self defense strategy. Research and technological development is always welcome by me. Finally, I would outsource further Federal Gun legislation to the gun owning community. To the extent that they oppose background checks, I would advocate ridicule. Organizations that prioritize gut feelings over science also deserve derision. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/56 "2014-05-16T06:23:07Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Well, I agree, but I respectfully doubt whether you do. The following chart shows the decline in crime over the past 20 years. It is superimposed on the decline in lead in the environment, 20 years earlier when one age’s criminals were still experiencing brain development. [http://www.motherjones.com/files/Lead\_Crime\_325.gif](http://www.motherjones.com/files/Lead_Crime_325.gif) > > More: [Lead: America’s Real Criminal Element – Mother Jones](http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline) > Still more: [Lead and Crime: A Linkfest - By Kevin Drum, Mother Jones](http://www.lead.org.au/lanv13n2/lanv13n2-2.html) > > It’s a striking correlation, but one that hasn’t been fully established yet. [http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/337398/lead-and-crime-jim-manzi](http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/337398/lead-and-crime-jim-manzi) She puts forward a regression model that she says is “the best way to determine the relationship between lead exposure in childhood and criminality in adulthood.” This model purports to show a causal relationship between lead exposure and violent crime. But here’s a funny thing about her regression:\*\* It also shows no statistically significant relationship between lead exposure and property crime, and no statistically significant relationship between lead exposure and murder. This is extraordinarily counter-intuitive. \*\*Loss of IQ (and hence earnings power and foresight) plus loss of impulse control makes me more likely to assault people, but not more likely to kill them or steal from them? Anything’s possible, but that sure undercuts the intuition behind the case. Either the impact of lead on crime is incredibly specific to non-property crimes other than murder, or we have a problem with the measurement method. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/57 "2014-05-16T06:29:19Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > The FBI keeps stats on who kills who. (To the best they can, given most murderers aren’t eager to claim credit.) Double check their stats, but IIRC most of the time, the same ethnicity/race kills the same victim. Inter-racial violence is comparatively rare. Therefore, I made the inference that the horrifically high rate of violent death among African-Americans resulted from a horrifically high violent crime rate among African-Americans. > > Again, most of that is likely due to organized crime killings, (for a given value of “organized”: gang members killing each other counts) mostly the drug trade. > > But go look at the stats. I certainly could have remembered them wrong. Shouldn’t you be starting with the statistics and then forming a conclusion from them? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/58 "2014-05-16T07:47:21Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There seems to be a correlation between crowding COMBINED with poverty and gun violence - so either decrease the population density or increase general wealth. How are we supposed to decrease the population density without gun violence?😕 ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443/59 "2014-05-16T08:49:46Z")
[QUOTE=Jim Manzi of the National Review She puts forward a regression model that she says is “the best way to determine the relationship between lead exposure in childhood and criminality in adulthood.” This model purports to show a causal relationship between lead exposure and violent crime. But here’s a funny thing about her regression:\*\* It also shows no statistically significant relationship between lead exposure and property crime, and no statistically significant relationship between lead exposure and murder. This is extraordinarily counter-intuitive. \*\*Loss of IQ (and hence earnings power and foresight) plus loss of impulse control makes me more likely to assault people, but not more likely to kill them or steal from them? Anything’s possible, but that sure undercuts the intuition behind the case. Either the impact of lead on crime is incredibly specific to non-property crimes other than murder, or we have a problem with the measurement method.[/INDENT] [/QUOTE] 1. It’s not just the study by Reyes. 2. Kevin Drum: [INDENT]Reyes didn’t find a correlation in every possible subset of data. For example, lead didn’t have an effect on property crime, only violent crime. Nor did Reyes find an association with murder rates. Manzi calls this “extraordinarily counter-intuitive,” which I find odd. It actually makes perfect sense that a higher propensity for violence would increase the rate of violent crime, but might not have much effect on property crime. As for murder, other studies have found a relationship, but in any case, it’s certainly possible that other factors could swamp the effect of lead. The absolute number of murders is low, and small, localized effects could easily move the numbers enough to make the relationship fail a standard test of statistical significance. [/INDENT] There is [more here](http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/01/lead-and-crime-response-jim-manzi). All that said, the lead hypothesis currently remains an hypothesis: I’d like to see it evaluated in a multivariate and lit review context and the results subjected to peer review. For the moment though it seems to be a fairly robust result, covering two peaks in lead exposure over time and some cross-US state and cross-country evidence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/decreasing-gun-violence-crime-without-restricting-the-2nd-amendment/688443.md?page=2)