# De'endee Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 6, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052 "2011-07-06T16:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 101
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2001 "2011-08-11T05:41:18Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > The only person in the game capable of roleblocking remaining is Inner Stickler Just out of curiousity… Why? There are several who either haven’t claimed or haven’t had our claims proven to be true. Why not the elusive **pedescribe** or the terse **Weedy** or the slippery **Hirka** or the ever-safe **Mental Guy** or the cool-minded **Stanislaus** or the mysteriously dual-named Renata/ **Normal Phase** or the sorry-I-can’t think-of-an-adjective **USCDiver** or hell, the alternately loquacious and lame partial lurker **choie**? I’m not claiming anything at all, except that I’m town, because reading back to recent posts, it’s apparently not recommended for someone in my position to do so. But still. Why is _all_ the focus on these repeat suspects rather than the rest of us? (Especially **pedescribe** , about whom we know absolutely nothing AFAICT). Please explain to someone who could use the guidance. And btw to **LightFoot** , I didn’t just pop up to vote or unvote **ShadowFacts**. If you scroll up I posted earlier too. Not much, I grant, but I do explain my thoughts. Indeed I have been completely sincere about my mindset throughout the game. I know there’s no reason to believe me, but FWIW that’s the truth. 🙂 And you can prove it, in fact, if you really want to. But as a good townie I am forced by loyalty and pragmatism to recommend you not waste it. Go for **Suburban** or one of the other non-obvious scanees. ---
**Author:** ![Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirka_T_Bawa)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2002 "2011-08-11T05:45:00Z")
**ATPG** , as you mentioned in one of your wall of words, I will not be comfortable lynching a claimed doctor unless there is a counter claim… However, I will take your thoughts and words in consideration, and if **IS** still survives two nights past today, I WILL vote to lynch him… Unless the next two nights show no NK’s, which might just show that **IS** won a WIFOM game with the scum… Though, if there is a NK, and and **IS** is still alive, I’ll be on the lynch **IS** bandwagon for you, even if you end up dead before then. However, I do have doubt on your ideas… While you’ve been doing very good over all, and I do believe you’re town, you thought I was the real “Doctor”, (which I’m not), so, I do think it is possible you are mistaken… But, at least I know your heart is in the right place, and if it comes down to LYLO I will defiantly take your thoughts into serious consideration. In the mean time, I would really like to hear your thoughts on **MentalGuy** , I thought **Normal Phase** made a really convincing case on him, and I’m totally willing to lynch him over it… Personally, I think **MentalGuy** would be a better lynch then either of **Red** or **ShadowFacts**. And for the record… I don’t think the color between “Arcane” and “Divine” to mean much, and don’t think it is a good case. I’ve never played actual DnD, just various games that took inspiration from DnD, and I’ve always understood “Arcane” to just mean “Really Old”… It wouldn’t surprise me is **Astral** took it to mean the same thing. Besides, **Suburban** ’s stated PM even said it was a “helpful” spell. ---
**Author:** ![Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirka_T_Bawa)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2003 "2011-08-11T05:50:46Z")
> [@choie](#): > > …or the slippery **Hirka** … Slippery? Slippery? Why, I don’t think I’ve ever been called “Slippery” before. I honestly don’t know how to take it… At first glance, I would thing that’s bad, but, I know you were just trying to find an adjective to describe the ones of us who are… well… “Lurkers”, for lack of a better word. But “Slippery”? Do I really seem like I’m being “Slippery”? ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2004 "2011-08-11T06:07:53Z")
> [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > However, I do have doubt on your ideas… While you’ve been doing very good over all, and I do believe you’re town, you thought I was the real “Doctor”, (which I’m not), so, I do think it is possible you are mistaken… But, at least I know your heart is in the right place, and if it comes down to LYLO I will defiantly take your thoughts into serious consideration. I never claimed I was flawless; and since I’ve taken contradictory positions throughout the course of the game, I’ve in fact proven I’m quite fallible. You shouldn’t be considering ME in this equation though. The source of the data is not me, the conclusion I’ve drawn comes from me. Draw your own conclusions. And regardless of a track record of rightness or wrongness, even a stopped clock is right at least once a day. Even if a complete fool told the truth about something by accident, it would still be the truth. Do not consider the advocate too much when examining the data as reliable, especially if the advocate is not the source of the data. > [@](#): > > In the mean time, I would really like to hear your thoughts on **MentalGuy** , I thought **Normal Phase** made a really convincing case on him, and I’m totally willing to lynch him over it… Personally, I think **MentalGuy** would be a better lynch then either of **Red** or **ShadowFacts**. I think he’d be a fine vigilante kill. However, in order to prove my case on Stickler is correct, you will need ShadowFacts and Red Skeezix dead. You have to remove the cover that Stickler is hiding in. Remove the other options, so you can believe what I’m saying. Go for ShadowFacts. if he flips townie he definitely didn’t block Lightfoot last night, and even if he flips scum, he was busy blocking Skeezix the night prior, not Lightfoot. Red Skeezix can either kill the scums for you or be killed by them, as such, go for ShadowFacts, right or wrong. > [@](#): > > And for the record… I don’t think the color between “Arcane” and “Divine” to mean much, and don’t think it is a good case. I’ve never played actual DnD, just various games that took inspiration from DnD, and I’ve always understood “Arcane” to just mean “Really Old”… It wouldn’t surprise me is **Astral** took it to mean the same thing. Perhaps in other games, but that’s definitely not the case in Dungeons and Dragons. Read any official DnD article about it, if you don’t trust the wikipedia entry. There’s a \*\*major \*\*distinction between magic which comes from the earth and this plane of existence, the arcane kind, and the kind which comes from the heaven or the underworld, which is granted by the gods. They are divided like plant and animal classification in biology: split into completely separate camps and for fundamental reasons. > [@](#): > > Besides, **Suburban** ’s stated PM even said it was a “helpful” spell. I believe Suburban Plankton is a scumbag, trying desperately to keep Inner Stickler alive by “confirming” Stickler’s story. I’ve done the same thing before as scum, confirm what my partner was saying. Yeah it is risky… but not in the short term, if people believe you. It only becomes a problem in the endgame. Right now, everyone but me is willing to swallow these claims as true. They’re in no danger and have exhaustively prevented a Stickler lynch. That’s not “retarded” as Stickler would have you believe, which by the way is a Wine In Front Of Me defense. “I wouldn’t do it because it is dangerous” is NOT a defense. It worked, didn’t it? But anyway. I will either be proven wrong in time or your own lynches, vig-kills, and the mafia murders, will eliminate the other options for you. Keep in mind what I said, don’t let him survive the game. Have fun. _"In the Dungeons & Dragons game, magic is a force of nature, and a part of the world. In the game’s 3rd Edition there are two main types of magic: **arcane** , which comes from the world and universe around the caster, and **divine** , which is inspired from above (or below): the realms of gods and demons. Wizards, sorcerers and bards learn to cast arcane spells, which are typically flashy and powerful, but, prior to 4th edition, often require complex movements and gestures known as somatic components, which are impeded by wearing bulky armor. Clerics, druids, rangers and paladins cast divine spells, which draw their power from a deity, from nature, or simply the caster’s inner faith._" ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2005 "2011-08-11T06:21:28Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Just out of curiousity… Why? There are several who either haven’t claimed or haven’t had our claims proven to be true. Why not the elusive **pedescribe** or the terse **Weedy** or the slippery **Hirka** or the ever-safe **Mental Guy** or the cool-minded **Stanislaus** or the mysteriously dual-named Renata/ **Normal Phase** or the sorry-I-can’t think-of-an-adjective **USCDiver** or hell, the alternately loquacious and lame partial lurker **choie**? The reason being that 2 roleblockers in a smallish game is unusual. Usually, one is scum and the other is townie. Here, two of them can be explained by a backup townie role or a role-stealing scum role. ShadowFacts’ claim is not only believable (not proving townie or scum, just believable in terms of capability) but pretty much proven. A third one is obviously a scumbag. But here we also have a mysterious number 4 and number 5. And yet, I can cross off every other role one by one because of certain reasons. Even if SF is scum, he wasn’t blocking Lightfoot all 3 nights. Only possible last night. His other block was used on Skeezix. As such, his death will remove him as a possibility, but my reasoning suggests he’s not a possibility anyway. Not likely. Special ed is dead, therefore, he’s out. Red Skeezix being blocked last night can be confirmed by his townie status on his death. His being blocked means there was someone else blocking Skeezix, and not blocking Lightfoot. That role was too busy to have done it. ShadowFacts and Skeezix’ death therefore leaves only two options of the 5 claimed roleblockers. One- the elusive fifth roleblocker that Suburban Plankton mentioned he was blocked by, with delayed results and STRANGE results (I should have been informed). And by N2, when Lightfoot starts getting blocked by a “headache” causing “Strength draining” magic user, this person was still not level 3. Which means their original “delay” mechanic was still in effect. That rules out that role as having done this. It was still a delaying blocker and under-leveled. That leaves just Inner Stickler. Or, a SIXTH roleblocker. And sorry, I don’t buy this game has 6. I don’t even buy that it has 5. I think SP’s roleblocker is fictional. I also think Inner Stickler as cleric is fictional. I don’t need anyone else in the game to claim. There aren’t 5 or 6 roleblockers in this game. Prove me wrong, somebody step up and claim and clear this up. As such, I deduce that Stickler did it. Then I look at the color which is identical for 3 nights, including the night Stickler claims he couldn’t have done it, the same night SP says he was using a colorful spell on Lightfoot. That’s either a ridiculously astonishing coincidence and we have a 6th roleblocker, or Lightfoot was blocked by a scum Stickler. I am not asking you to believe me now. Believe me later, when it’s the only option remaining. ---
**Author:** ![gnarlycharlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@gnarlycharlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarlycharlie)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2006 "2011-08-11T06:40:47Z")
> [@LightFoot](#): > > Yep If I wasn’t BLOCKED (nice stabby stabby gloat there) > > I said ‘smells funny’ not smells ‘bad’ AND I’m not drinking the koolaid (btw who is Stix?) just a little ribbing. 😛 oh, sometimes **Inner Stickler** is called Stix. > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > snipped > > Perhaps in other games, but that’s definitely not the case in Dungeons and Dragons. Read any official DnD article about it, if you don’t trust the wikipedia entry. There’s a \*\*major \*\*distinction between magic which comes from the earth and this plane of existence, the arcane kind, and the kind which comes from the heaven or the underworld, which is granted by the gods. They are divided like plant and animal classification in biology: split into completely separate camps and for fundamental reasons. > > snipped i played for a few years in my younger days and you are correct that there are distinctions between paladin/cleric spells and mage spells. because of the effort put in by the mods i believe the color isn’t \*only \* color. that said looks like **Inner Stickler** or **Suburban Plankton** is scum or even both. but it looks like it will be **ShadowFacts** or **Red Skeezix** that will be lynched. vote for who is most likely scum or vote who is likely scum between the two leaders? will have to think about that. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2007 "2011-08-11T06:50:00Z")
> [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > that said looks like **Inner Stickler** or **Suburban Plankton** is scum or even both. but it looks like it will be **ShadowFacts** or **Red Skeezix** that will be lynched. vote for who is most likely scum or vote who is likely scum between the two leaders? will have to think about that. Thank you gnarlycharlie. You and Normal agreeing with the case presented as a possibility brings warm feelings to my heart. I see you guys haven’t locked yet; but if you were to listen to me and reverse the vote now, it would be a highly dangerous maneuver. You have to agree beforehand, more or less unanimously, or else you risk someone besides Inner or Shadow dying (Skeezix) and I predict very strongly that his lynch is a bad move. It’s very risky. I also doubt in my fellow townies to steel themselves and pull it off. And, maybe, it’s possible that eliminating ShadowFacts is the better, safer option anyway. After that, if you’re willing to go for Stickler, not much was lost (No offense Shadow; your powers are mostly used up and you are a suspect still). If you want me to lay out the reasons why Shadow must go before Skeezix, I will gladly do so. I support SF’s death if Stickler doesn’t go down today. I will also accept a MentalGuy vig-kill tonight, though I’m not nearly as certain as others about him. It removes a suspect that several people are stuck on, and has a good chance of being scum, if not great. Just say the word; but the imminent threat of the non-paranoid doctor, unblocked detective, unblocked tracker, proven innocent Pizzaguy, likely innocent Normal Phase and others, and unblocked and still breathing vigilante poses the mafia extreme problems tonight if Skeezix is townie. if he’s scum that will become obvious in short order. ShadowFacts’ blocking power technically makes him a long shot candidate as being the one who blocked Lightfoot last night, taking over for whoever had previously been doing it on the scum team (I believe the color indicates scum on those N2 and N3 blocks). Therefore, ShadowFacts edges Skeezix as a default lynch. If you had it within you to devour Inner Stickler today, I’d risk an all-out assault and go for it. It would be fun… ---
**Author:** ![Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirka_T_Bawa)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2008 "2011-08-11T06:54:11Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > And regardless of a track record of rightness or wrongness, even a stopped clock is right at least once a day. Even if a complete fool told the truth about something by accident, it would still be the truth. Do not consider the advocate too much when examining the data as reliable, especially if the advocate is not the source of the data. I don’t, honestly, this is only my 3rd game of Mafia, and I was subbed into 2 of them.. I am not the best at making cases, but, from my experience so far, I’m decent at evaluating cases. In the two previous games, I’ve never been that good at figuring out who is scum, but, what I have been good at it figuring out who I can trust as town… Honestly, the only one who has ever really thrown me for a loop is **Normal Phase** , who I really though was town in my first game, until I started having doubts at LYLO… Unfortunately in that game, while I would have voted with **Red Skeezix** (Who I was trying to kill most of the game, and was the other lynch candidate), the one confirmed townie left refused to change their vote, I followed their lead (with reservations), and town lost… And the 2nd game she was a PFK. So, I never know what to think about **Normal Phase** , except that she is a DAMN good player! So, I try to look at y’alls data, and judge the case, even if I’m not good enough to make one on my own so far. > [@](#): > > Go for ShadowFacts. if he flips townie he definitely didn’t block Lightfoot last night, and even if he flips scum, he was busy blocking Skeezix the night prior, not Lightfoot. Red Skeezix can either kill the scums for you or be killed by them, as such, go for ShadowFacts, right or wrong. See, I’ve never liked lynching someone “just” because we want more info.. While I know that Town trades deaths for info, it just never seemed right to me. I’m more of one to vote who I think is actually scummy, I don’t necessarily like voting just to see if someone is telling the truth… **ShadowFacts** has proven all his claimed powers at this point. And since I really do think a universal backup is more likely then a scum stealing, I feel like I’m doing something wrong if I don’t: **Unvote ShadowFacts** > [@](#): > > Perhaps in other games, but that’s definitely not the case in Dungeons and Dragons. Read any official DnD article about it, if you don’t trust the wikipedia entry. There’s a \*\*major \*\*distinction between magic which comes from the earth and this plane of existence, the arcane kind, and the kind which comes from the heaven or the underworld, which is granted by the gods. They are divided like plant and animal classification in biology: split into completely separate camps and for fundamental reasons. I believe you that there really is… in actual “DnD”, however, I don’t know what **Astral** ’s experience playing actual DnD is. He could be someone like me, who has never actually played DnD, but has played many games “Based” on DnD, which don’t differentiate between Arcane and Divine. While I’ve understood almost every term used so far in the color of this game without thinking, I never thought anything of the term “Arcane”, since to me it always just meant “Old Magic”, as in magic from before the current time period. I can’t base a vote **Astral** being an expert on DnD… Specially when it was **Mahaloth** who had the original idea for this game, and asked **Astral** to help him “Balance” the game. (Yea, I know that is meta gaming, sorry if I can’t help it) > [@](#): > > I believe Suburban Plankton is a scumbag, trying desperately to keep Inner Stickler alive by “confirming” Stickler’s story. If you honestly believe that **Suburban Plankton** is lying, then why didn’t you make a case against him? Personally, I think I would be much more receptacle to a case against a claimed watcher, who only has had results from claimed power / non-power people, and hasn’t actually provided any “New” information since he claimed. I would be much more willing to join a lynch bandwagon against **SP** then I would against a claimed doctor like **IS**. After All, the only independent verification of **SP** ’s power is in **Red** ’s posted PM about seeing someone tracking him… Which was pointed out by **SP**. > [@](#): > > Keep in mind what I said, don’t let him survive the game. Have fun. Oh, a claimed doctor is a perfect target for scum. I’m sure he will be their prime target the next couple nights. I figure it will be a WIFOM battle between the scum and **IS** as will he self-protect, or protect **Lightfoot** … Either way, I figure that tonight, there will be one of three options… 1. Lightfoot dies. 2. Inner Stickler dies, or 3. There is no NK. (Assuming everyone is telling the truth that is). If something else happens, then my suspicions will be raised. On Preview: Has **LightFoot** actually posted her role PM? I’m just wondering if the color on role blocking has to do with the role blocker, or if it might have to do with the type of action the player does. Obviously, a “Seer” will be using their mind, while an “Assassin” would be physically attacking their target. Maybe the type of role block only has to do with the type of action that is being blocked, not the blocker? ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2009 "2011-08-11T07:02:15Z")
> [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > If you honestly believe that **Suburban Plankton** is lying, then why didn’t you make a case against him? On every single round of the game (save round 1, perhaps) I have argued vociferously that Suburban Plankton is a big fat Lord of Slaughter. I’ve stated reasons why; those reasons were always based on his votes and behavior. It was never anything so solid that it was widely agreed with. Here, I have some additional meat. He’s claiming that Stickler was using arcane magic, and that he was blocked by a mysterious 5th blocker. You hate this, but Suburban Plankton’s death would prove both of those things are real and part of this game. Suburban Plankton could make an excellent third alternative to Inner and Shadow. I believe he is in fact scum. Why he’s scummy, I’ve laid it out before and I could do so again, but I’m exhausted too. You guys only had to read these posts, I had to think them, write them, and make sure they made sense in the first place. That’s harder. Just go with “Pizza strongly believes he’s scum based on behavior, gut instinct and experience say so”, long story short. Plus, his death reveals much about the mysteries surrounding this plot. Turn the page, see what happens. But you CANNOT afford to split the vote 3-4-5 different ways, you must decide and decide quickly. You have only half a day remaining. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2010 "2011-08-11T12:08:50Z")
SP’s block is the odd one out. He got a delayed result. Doesn’t fit with the block on LF, or the block on RS. None of the colour is consistent, unless Inner Stickler is lying. Why would he lie? Why would he claim doc if he isn’t? USC Diver, Hirka, Mental Guy, claimed vanilla. People talked about a mass role-claim but we never decided to. Why did you claim? Claiming vanilla reduces the pool for scum to look for powers. Did you think they had all claimed? We certainly seem to have a few. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2011 "2011-08-11T12:32:15Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > The days are just too long for you aren’t they. You come up with great cases but then you talk yourself out of them and down false trails. S’okay, I forgive you. > > Meanwhile, I’m not so easily misled. > > [color=blue]\*\*Vote Shadowfacts > Vote Shadowfacts > > If we don’t lynch scum today, it won’t be my fault. _frowny face_ Scummy post, Stickler. I mean, just for one thing, the late Septimus bandwagon yesterday was _right_. Just for another, I don’t remember you ever taking such a strong position on Shadowfacts that it would justify this kind of statement. I’m getting more convinced that Pizza is right. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2012 "2011-08-11T12:47:59Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Out of curiosity, do you think there was a particular person who would have been a good target for me that Night? Or do you just think \*\*ShadowFacts \*\*wasn’t it? I’m always for information. Pretty much anyone would have been a more likely choice than Shadowfacts. – Septimus. Has been under suspicion, including of being a third party. Has claimed bulletproof, a passive role. If active, is a liar. – me or Pizza. Claimed vanillas. If active, are liars. – anyone in the unclaimed pool. Inactives are more likely town than scum; though it’s not foolproof, it is a data point. Actives are power roles or scum and warrant special attention; if they claim before you die, you have a chance of catching active scum trying to hide in the vanilla pool. I’ll be more suspicious of you if SF is scum than if he is town. If he is town, it seems clear given that result PM that someone was observing him, and I can’t think of a reason for the scum to do that. They’d know he’d be reporting his result truly in the morning anyway. Even if scum were trying to kill him that same night (Red) and thus didn’t expect him to produce a result, I’m struggling to come up with a motive. If he’s scum, though, it’s simple. It’s just your way of “confirming” each other and you probably didn’t track him at all. I need to go find Stanislaus’ case against Red Skeezix now; I’d rather be wrong about him than just miss something obvious someone else pointed out. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2013 "2011-08-11T13:12:42Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > I’m getting more convinced that Pizza is right. It’s not too late. We still have almost 9 hours to make things right. Yep, I’m going to be the cheerleader for this lynch all the way up to the end. - To all:\* If you’re willing to switch to Inner Stickler, please indicate so and move 1 vote to Stickler. Don’t lock unless you’re not coming back. If we can get a substantive group of you to agree on this, let’s do it. I know you guys are worried if I’m wrong. What if I’m right? Inner Stickler is the scum roleblocker… Lightfoot and Red Skeezix suddenly have one less murderer to worry about and one less blocker. We deal a crushing blow to the scum team. They cannot recover from this, because they tossed EVERYTHING at preventing this move from happening. Plankton is likely scum. Their whole team unravels. Inner is the key to everything. Let’s unlock this mystery. Let’s take the big risk, place a big bet, and emerge surprisingly victorious. **It’s fun…** ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2014 "2011-08-11T13:23:09Z")
> [@Weedy](#): > > SP’s block is the odd one out. He got a delayed result. Doesn’t fit with the block on LF, or the block on RS. None of the colour is consistent, unless Inner Stickler is lying. Why would he lie? Why would he claim doc if he isn’t? > > USC Diver, Hirka, Mental Guy, claimed vanilla. People talked about a mass role-claim but we never decided to. Why did you claim? Claiming vanilla reduces the pool for scum to look for powers. Did you think they had all claimed? We certainly seem to have a few. For all the people counting blockers: what if Red wasn’t blocked? What if the discrepancy in colour isn’t suggestive of a mystery 4th (or 5th, or 6th) block power, but of poor improvisation by twisting scum? Doesn’t that solve all the mysteries? Normal - most recent case is [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14120432&postcount=1905). Also [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14114213#post14114213). ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2015 "2011-08-11T13:25:40Z")
I think there’s another post, but I found this one first and never really talked about it the first time around. First thing you have to understand here is that I was _expecting_ Shadow to frame someone. In fact, I rather thought he might frame me. When I read his first post that day (which was prior to his naming Red), I sent this to Astral with the title “if Septimus is scum”: [QUOTE=Normal Phase] Let me just say for the record right now that I CALLED IT he would have a “successful” roleblock to report this morning. Very interested, in a trainwreck sort of way, to see who he will name. Would be nice if he’s town, but … [/QUOTE] You have to consider the situation. If Shadow is scum, he and his godfather have just very narrowly avoided lynching. The two loudest townies in the game are riding him hard, and have pretty much dropped the godfather for the moment. That’s good. What’s not good is he’s probably going to be lynched tomorrow. And if not him, Septimus might! (And if the mafia do know that Red is the vig, they know he’s very likely to shoot at one or the other of them. I don’t think that scenario requires scum doc, btw, but that’s beside the point.) How the heck can you blow some smoke into this situation and keep the town from chugging along in default lynch mode and take you both out? No kill, frame a townie, and see if you can WIFOM it out the next day (scum shot at LF? doc protected someone else?) doesn’t sound so bad in that light, does it? Anyway. > [@Stanislaus](#): > > This is a silly conversation: > Let’s say Shadow is scum. Why did he announce a successful block after a no-kill Night and put Red in the frame? > > Scenario 1: Red is Town. > > Scum have narrowly avoided a lynch of both septimus and Shadow on D3. They have, somehow, failed to kill on N3. This is not good for them. So rather than being circumspect, Shadow brings further attention to himself by framing Red. Astonishingly, Red turns out indeed to be a Vig and to have targeted Shadow. Could Shadow have known this? I can buy having protection, just about. But that the protection would also involve revealing the identity of the attacker? That seems highly unlikely. Do Scum also have an investigator? If so, we’re looking at a scum team consisting of: Godfather (septimus), Role-stealer (Shadow), Blocker (probably), Doc, Investigator. Really? Even if we subtract the Blocker, that’s a lot. But that’s what you need to have Shadow know that Red is a Vig. > > But let’s say that scum did know Red was the Vig, somehow. That means they know he’ll claim. And the precise claim (“Yes, I was blocked. Yes, I am a killer.”) that will have the best chance of neutralising Shadow’s accusation. Why is this a good plan? There’s no certainty of getting Red lynched under these conditions, and it draws further attention to Shadow. > > Even if we assume that Shadow didn’t know Red was a Vig, and got lucky in his accusation of a random townie, what was the point? Framing someone works well right up until they die, and the frame becomes obvious. What was Shadow going to do at that point - “Heh, heh, oops.”? To have already avoided the lynch and then put yourself in a position where you’d be directly responsible for the death of a town power role is a crazy stupid risk. There’s no cred to be gained here for anyone. At best, Red dies, then Shadow dies, then septimus dies. > > Certainly, the pile up of votes on septimus strongly suggests that they changed their minds. But if they wanted a big bandwagon on septimus, they just had to do nothing. > > Scenario 2: Red is scum. > > This scenario makes marginally more sense, in that Red’s death would actually gain Shadow some credibility. Except consider again the circumstances. Scum have two players exposed from D3. A no kill on N3. Red is flying more or less below the radar, except for a little suspicion from Normal, and more from Shadow. He’s not really in any danger of being lynched. Unlike, say, septimus. So Scum decide to throw Red to the wolves, when otherwise he’d have been good for at least a few more Days. Why? > > If they wanted a distraction from Shadow, they had septimus ready to go. And even if they’d got Red lynched first (which they failed to do by a wide margin) septimus would still have been on the hook. So rather than a plan which costs 2 scum, you’ve got a plan that costs… 2 scum. I can see that, with powers, Shadow might be more valuable to Scum than Red. But again, why bring Red into it? If Shadow’s going to bluff a successful block, why not pin it on septimus? It’s just as easy to put his name in your claim as Red’s; he’s already under suspicion and this would nail it down. Easy credit for Shadow, and Red gets to stay out of the spotlight. Again, why does Red fight it? If the plan is to sacrifice himself for Shadow, why make the Vig claim? Once he sees that it’s working, why not deliberately screw up or throw himself on the sword? If the whole plan was for Red to swing to prove Shadow’s bona fides, why is Red still alive? > > None of this makes sense . What does make sense is: Shadow blocked Red and there was no scum-kill. Ergo Red is scum. Once we kill Red, we can decide if we think this is a crazy gambit by a scum Shadow, or just a Town player who hit what he was aiming at. I do understand where you’re coming from. Off to find your other post. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2016 "2011-08-11T13:25:54Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > For all the people counting blockers: what if Red wasn’t blocked? What if the discrepancy in colour isn’t suggestive of a mystery 4th (or 5th, or 6th) block power, but of poor improvisation by twisting scum? Doesn’t that solve all the mysteries? > > Normal - most recent case is [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14120432&postcount=1905). Also [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14114213#post14114213). If Red wasn’t blocked, then Red bussed septimus and septimus bussed Red in such a way that, again, discredited them both and made them both more likely to die. And, if Red is just plain lying about being blocked, then he chose not to murder last night instead of murdering someone. Why? To make himself MORE suspicious? Have Lightfoot scan Red Skeezix. Have Suburban Plankton track Red Skeezix. Have Red Skeezix do nothing tonight. Watch what happens. You can eliminate Red as an option. It makes no sense, these moves of his, if he’s scum. That doesn’t mean it’s correct, but you have him in a corner… ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2017 "2011-08-11T13:27:00Z")
NETA: That was supposed to be “if Shadowfacts is scum”, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2018 "2011-08-11T13:29:54Z")
@ AtPG – as I mentioned, Red is not quite in a corner in a town-favorable way, unless there are four scum and we lynch one today. Currently we are positing two scum blockers (and one other scum), if Red is town. That means if no scum die today, scum can still lock down Red _and_ LF tonight, and still kill, leaving us at status quo as far as Red is concerned. Same thing if there are five scum, unless today’s lynch takes out one of the blockers. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2019 "2011-08-11T13:32:41Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > @ AtPG – as I mentioned, Red is not quite in a corner in a town-favorable way, unless there are four scum and we lynch one today. > > Currently we are positing two scum blockers (and one other scum), if Red is town. That means if no scum die today, scum can still lock down Red _and_ LF tonight, and still kill, leaving us at status quo as far as Red is concerned. > > Same thing if there are five scum, unless today’s lynch takes out one of the blockers. ShadowFacts is a possible candidate for blocking Lightfoot, but not a candidate for blocking Red Skeezix. Inner Stickler, I’ve determined, is probably the one who blocked Lightfoot. Saving him until later is “safe” but if you nail this guy, it’s all over but the crying. I guess the question is,\* do you really want to hurt the Lords? Do you really want to make them cry?\* ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2020 "2011-08-11T13:43:29Z")
**For you safeaholics:** You know there’s a scum between Shadow, Skeezix, and Stickler. If Skeezix is townie, you want him alive tonight. If you can’t bear to part with Stickler today, then ShadowFacts is a blocker who could have blocked Lightfoot, technically, even though the color didn’t change to indicate that’s the case. You eliminate SF, that leaves Skeezix or Stickler. You can either force Skeezix to not move, or force him to kill say, MentalGuy. Track him and scan him. That eliminates Skeezix. Then you’re left with the big kahuna for tomorrow. Nice and safe. Slow, but safe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=100) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=102)