# De'endee Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 6, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052 "2011-07-06T16:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 115
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2281 "2011-08-14T11:19:59Z")
> [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > Yea, it was, but the fact I didn’t remember and was wrong has to be a point on my side right? 😃 On review, yes… it’s a \*minor \*point in your favor. Still my pizza senses are tingling and it involves choie and Diver’s reaction. Either choie was defending you or Diver, I’m certain of that, and even if you’re townie, choie could discredit me by pointing out my failures to get the suspicion off of Diver, and obviously curry your favor and look good if you pop townie. I’d be willing to put either of them ahead of you, just to be on the safe side. But you did do a very impressive job sparing septimus’ life and then willingly allowed the same mistaken reason for why you were townie that I mis-remembered. I can’t whitewash everything you’ve done. You’re on notice, and it will end with your head on a pike should choie and Diver, either one, flip scum. **unvote: Hirka T’Bawa vote: choie** ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2282 "2011-08-14T11:26:03Z")
Grrr, I’m confused. I like the case on Hirka well enough. I like the case on Diver well enough. Who’s the everybody who thinks Mental needs to die, save for Hirka? I’ve been feeling like I’ve been talking to a brick wall on him. (Unless it’s on the last page and I didn’t read it yet.) And how does a block on Inner demonstrate anything abotu Red? We know they have two, if Red is town. We expect they have only one, if Red is a lying scumbag. Either way Inner gets blocked. And don’t even ask me to explain the color; I thought that was the Ed/Shadow block, the memory thing. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2283 "2011-08-14T11:29:04Z")
At one time or another, I do remember… bad memory aside… that many folks have voted for MentalGuy and some have recently been pushing for him. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2284 "2011-08-14T11:32:32Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > And how does a block on Inner demonstrate anything abotu Red? We know they have two, if Red is town. We expect they have only one, if Red is a lying scumbag. Either way Inner gets blocked. Blocking Inner means blocking Red isn’t necessary. Inner can’t self-protect, and given how much I had been defending Red, if Red was at all grateful for my help, he might have read my case and attacked Inner. So, Inner couldn’t protect himself, couldn’t protect Suburban. Why block Red? He might have hit pedescribe again, or Inner. At no time was there even a hint that he might go for any of choie or Hirka, or Diver that I can recall. **Blocking him would have been a waste of their talents**. They might have blocked, murdered, and prepared another Day Kill. We’ll see after today. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2285 "2011-08-14T12:36:29Z")
Grrr… I keep going back and forth and I’m not sure it even bleeping matters. That Hirka forgetting which way he voted thing could have been an act, but if it wasn’t, then it likely means something… maybe? I may need help on this one. I think you’ve got at least 2 scummers in the Diver, choie, Hirka group, just from sheer process of elimination, and there are good cases to be made on all three. Yet I really, really don’t want to hit the townie among them, if any. Some people put on their brains and figure this out. I almost want to unvote Diver and put one vote back on Hirka… oh if I had three votes or could lynch two people today. Frickin-frack. Knowing my luck it will be the townie who looked scummy among these three that gets the axe and the two guilty parties scamper away with their tail tucked betwixt their legs. I still think it’s all three but please gimme reasons why two of them are guiltier than the remaining third. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2286 "2011-08-14T12:41:24Z")
I’ll get on this after sleep plus a 10-hour shift tonight. My objective at this point is to look at Diver, choie, and Hirka’s stances toward each other all game, their stances toward septimus all game, their stances toward any other suspects all game, and so forth. I think such an analysis would be illuminating but I just don’t have the time or the energy right this second. I have to force myself to sleep or I will never have a good night at work. And why can’t I count on the Lords of Slaughter to get me nice and dead like I requested, dammit. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2287 "2011-08-14T12:50:32Z")
Looking at my three suspects, Hirka first: Firstly, I don’t find Hirka posting from his phone to be scummy (I’m not even sure if that’s meant to be a joke or not). He mostly has been coming in, casting his votes and off to study. I do find some of the things he’s said this past day or so quite odd, like that he didn’t notice the push to lynch Septimus on Day 4. There were 14 votes placed on Septimus between Hirka’s first vote on Red Skeeezix and his second, so I’m surprised he didn’t notice any of it. Hirka voted Septimus quite quickly after S.'s last minute save, but then unvoted him because he believed his claim. He said when he voted for Shadowfacts that he thought he was town. Why does a town player vote for someone that they think is town? The way he talks about his vote has this air of ‘I was just resetting the situation to see fair play, and it doesn’t really matter much to me who gets lynched’, but if Red Skeezix flips scum, then it looks really bad to me. Too tired for the other two tonight. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2288 "2011-08-14T16:01:12Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > _hugs_ It’s really nothing personal, man. 🙂 > > But I’d like you to answer my poll. Would you lynch Hirka today if I asked you to? “If I asked you to?” No. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2289 "2011-08-14T17:06:04Z")
Okay, time for my own Wall of Words. I just cannot believe you guys are falling down the **pizza** hole _again_. This is the guy who was **dead wrong** about not just one but three townies, and I’m not talking early on in the game, but yesterday (literally, not just game yesterDay). Up until Dawn, **pizza** was utterly convinced, 100% certain, that he was right about **Suburban Plankton** , whom he’s called “scumbag” for a month now. And all Day yesterDay he was pushing us, pleading with us, haranguing us, to join him and kill **Inner Stickler**. For that matter, he also thought **ShadowFacts** was guilty, and it was only once it was clear the majority was already on that train that he switched to **Inner**. (Dang that’s a scum move right there. If a townie acts like scum even when proven townie… we’re all in big trouble!) Now **ShadowFacts** has been proven townie, **Inner Stickler** is proven townie, and **Suburban Plankton** has proven townie. And **pizza** is proven to be … not a very good guesser. But he quickly comes up with an entirely new set of characters to tar with the scum brush. He’s once again utterly convinced, 100% certain, that he’s right about these three new suspects. And my guess is that he’s gonna start pushing, pleading and haranguing us with his opinions yet again. So his only reason for not turning against **Red Skeezix** , who was seen attacking the innocent **ShadowFacts** and who hasn’t managed a kill the entire game? "Gee, everyone else is against him, so I’m gonna be for him. If everyone’s against him he MUST be innocent! Look at **Kelly** and **Silver** and **ShadowFacts**! Um, but not **Septimus**.) Is that argument really sound? Jesus, that’s the same argument I used when voting for the then-unproven **LightFoot** , and it was dumb then and it’s dumb now. Difference is, I knew my vote didn’t matter, and I was rather pathetically trying to copy **pizza** ’s idea for drawing people out into discussion via pressure. Anyway, so today, what do a couple of my alleged fellow townies do, now that **pizza** has been proven wrong and not a very good guesser after all? They _listen to this guy’s words as if he really is Yoda_. Double-u Tee Eff?!! > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > Yeah, I place long shot bets sometimes. But as with most everything I do, there’s a dual purpose to it. Remember pressure voting with no case? It acts like scum bait. It could lynch a scum, but it also attracts scum’s attention. “He’s not making cases that make sense, he’s scummy, wah wah wah.” Which is _exactly_ the way you reacted when I voted for **LightFoot**. But it’s different for you, because you have _reasons_ and _dual purposes_ for “most everything” you do. A master chess player… who was dead freakin’ wrong about THREE townies less than 24 hours ago. Remember where you asked me why I think you think you’re infallible? This kind of self-aggrandizing stuff right here. > [@](#): > > This time, I wanted to see if anyone would leap at the case on Stickler, but apparently, Red Skeezix is too large a threat and **NO ONE** took the bait at all. Damn you, Suburban Plankton, Damn you for making him look so townie. If you hadn’t done that, some scum MIGHT have flinched and taken the bait. I worked, VERY, HARD, to make him look scummy, even in spite of what you did. I still love you though. I really, really hope you took none of it personally. You are also quite awesome. Can we use a **pizza** -to-English translator and just say “I was wrong about **Suburban** all game and pushed for the death of **Inner Stickler** all day yesterday, and if everyone had bought it, we’d have lynched the innocent town doctor”? > [@](#): > > Now, here’s why \*\*Red Skeezix \*\*is innocent. Well, because he only voted once last round, never showed up to see what happened, didn’t send any night actions, and EVERYONE WANTS HIM DEAD, and EVERYONE ALWAYS WANTED HIM DEAD EXCEPT ME. This is why MentalGuy is innocent. I’m flabbergasted by this. It’s the biggest load of twaddle I’ve read all game. The argument for **Red Skeezix** ’s innocence is solely “EVERYONE ALWAYS WANTS HIM DEAD EXCEPT ME.” Seriously? And yet you stil think you don’t come across as egocentric? > [@](#): > > \*\*Everyone \*\*agrees he’s been too fence-sitting. Yep, everyone wants him dead. Except a scum team already bussed septimus, and they cannot bus their partners all game long and hope to win. “Everyone” doesn’t want him dead. We’ve only heard from a few people so far, and it’s very early in the Day, and there’s plenty of time for them to “bus” **Red** early to get some town cred and then change their mind later on. Note that no one has locked in on him yet. > [@](#): > > My saving grace is it looked too horrible to be truly scummy. I was written off as an idiot, \*\*and maybe rightly so. \*\*Thank my lucky stars I suck that badly that it couldn’t be scummy. Self-deprecation?! But that’s a scum-tell, isn’t it? Everyone says it’s a scum-tell! Oh wait, no, it’s only a scum-tell when **choie** does it. In her first game. Because to admit you’re not good at the game is to try and manipulate everyone and be eeeeevil. (Yes, I mentioned my newbieness again. Lynch me, hurry up!) > [@](#): > > Now, everyone and their mother wants Red Skeezix dead, or MentalGuy. And without examining anything, like maybe checking to see i_f Red had even logged in since the 8th_, we’re now dumping all our votes on Red and MentalGuy. Firstly, there are four days left to this Day. Placing one vote is easy as hell, and the natural result of learning that **ShadowFacts** ’s desperate pleas and accusations were right all along. **Red** attacked him. **Red** hasn’t attacked anyone who’s been proven scummy all game long, in fact. That’s damning, and all Day yesterday the smart money was saying that if **ShadowFacts** flipped town, we’d go after **Red**. And so some of us are. But no, you insist that ONLY YOU are examining everything. (There’s that famous humility again.) The rest of us are mere lemmings, unable to think without Daddy **pizza** reminding us of our duty. > [@](#): > > When criticized by me, choie showed a massive increase in interest in both the game and what I had to say. It needed refuting and discrediting. > > I’ve been looking at choie all game long. But she has also been off the mark in terms of where her votes go, who she accuses, and nervous to take a stand on who needs to die. > > Except she won’t be nervous to take a stand on other things. That’s the duality. She’s not a pushover, I’ve said it since the beginning. And she’s damned good at what she does. Yeah, that’s nice flattery. Except you’re only saying that because you think I’m scum. Which I’m so incredibly not. Every single thing you accuse me of is explained by my newness. Yes, again I’m using that as a defense, but fuck it, since it looks like you’re rolling up the **choie** -lynch Express, I might as well use what I got. I’m becoming more vocal for two reasons. First, I know it’s better for town if we all talk more, and people – people like **LightFoot** and **ShadowFacts** – suggested that I need to participate more. Second, because _you_ are almost single-handedly derailing this game and acting like the Pied Piper of De’endee by leading people down the wrong paths. And you were pushing people so loudly to vote against folks I believed to be innocent, which chafed the hell out of me. Again, if **LightFoot** hadn’t confirmed you, I’d be dead certain you were scum, because you are acting incredibly anti-Town. You were riding **Suburban** nearly _all game_, and were pushing us all to vote against **Inner** yesterday. That was wrong. That was, frankly, scummy. And now everyone’s just gonna follow your words? Jesus, I wasn’t really serious when I asked if it’s possible to have _two_ Mafia godfathers. But dayum, if anyone’s a Beguiler, it’s **Askthepizzaguy**. > [@](#): > > Who I find scummy has changed, and who I find townie has changed, as the game progresses. Yes, you’re very very flexible. To repeat: up until 6PM ET, you were **100% convinced** that **Inner Stickler** and **Suburban Plankton** were scum, and pretty certain **ShadowFacts** was scum too. Indeed, you have thought **Suburban Plankton** guilty throughout almost the entire game, continually calling him “scumbag” and dismissing his arguments because of his _obvious_ guilt. The only thing that changed your mind was the inescapable proof of his murder at Dawn. > [@](#): > > No one countered Red’s claim. No one countered Lightfoot’s claim. No one countered ShadowFacts’ claim. No one countered Suburban Plankton’s claim. No one countered Inner Stickler’s claim. Why is it certain that we _have_ a vigilante? Does every game have one? > [@](#): > > Gnarly and Weedy I just have a good feeling about. Mental is indeed a suspect, but everyone likes to kill this guy, and that’s why I don’t. That’s why I don’t like Red Skeezix for scumbag. That’s why I didn’t like Silver Jan for scumbag. That’s why I didn’t like KellyCriterion for scumbag. But you liked **septimus** for scumbag, and everyone though the was guilty. So you don’t think maybe, possibly, you’re wrong on this one too? Nah! C’est incroyable! > [@](#): > > Choie didn’t want to be blocked and that’s why she chimed in one round. Her reaction after I accused Hirka makes her scum. I reacted to the idea of blocking me the way any normal person would – especially a vanilla – because it was a waste of a move by our investigator. How should I have reacted instead, O Swami? I have _no_ idea how I failed your test on whether I’d vote for **Hirka** or **USCDiver** , two names seemingly pulled from out of your-- uh – let’s say out of thin air. My response was simple. Since I believe **ShadowFacts** and think **Red Skeezix** is guilty, I looked back on their votes and saw that they both voted for him. Nothing else stands out as scummy to me in their play, so I currently said I’m leaning townie. I also said I wanted to take another look at **Koldanar** ’s posts, since s/he played the same role as **Hirka** before pulling out of the game. But apparently this was a bad answer. I guess I was supposed to say “AW _HELL_ YEAH, KILL THE BASTARDS!” out of nowhere, is that it? Because you have a “hunch” that you weren’t even gracing me with, yet? See, this is how you play things – you actually just play hunches. You just talk so loudly and longly that eventually people thinkj you have great cases. But you don’t. Your casework helped get **ShadowFacts** killed, and could’ve lost us **Suburban** and **Inner** too, if people had listened. Your reason for believing **gnarlycharlie** and **Mental Guy**? “I just have a good feeling.” Now there’s solid logic and reasoning for ya. > [@](#): > > And, right or wrong, you three are awesome players. And I’m sorry my style is so grating. Nah, you’re not sorry, because if you were really sorry you’d change. And thanks for the flattery but since it involves stringing me up, I’ll just say nertz! A mass claim was never decided upon, right? Well, since our power roles have been outted (except the real vig, if we have one), I might as well claim now too. > [@Astral Rejection](#): > > Your character sheet > > * * * > > Class: NPC Townsperson > Alignment: Defenders of De’endee > Role: NPC > Win Condition: You win when all threats to the Defenders of De’endee are vanquished and at least one member of the Defenders of De’endee is still alive. > Powers: None. So there it is. Singularly underwhelming, isn’t it? I know, easy to fake. But if you guys remember my questioning of **Silver Jan** back in the day, it explains why I was suspicious of her. The chief reason I disbelieved **Silver Jan** was her claim – which was very different from what I was expecting from a self-confessed vanilla townie. The reason being it was different from then-proven townie **Kelly** ’s and my own. I didn’t buy that someone would have a D&D role, especially one like Mage, without any power. And since my own character sheet was vanilla, and my blah NPC role makes _sense_ for a vanilla, I immediately felt the hair on the back of my neck standing on end. **Silver Jan** ’s sheet was so different, it seemed that either she was a secret Town power role or she’d faked her claim to seem Townie. I didn’t think a town power role _would_ claim so early, a huge mistake according to everything I’d read, and thus I assumed her scum. Obviously I was embarrassingly wrong. But that was my thinking at the time. Let’s see, who else did I vote for? Oh yeah, **Normal**. Heck, I’m still not sold on her. But my reasoning then was because of her quickness to piggyback on **Jan** ’s early claim. That really didn’t make sense to me, again, because all the past threads I’d read indicated that claiming early was incredibly bad for Town. Trouble is, I didn’t understand her logic (for reasons I’m not gonna stress yet again), but when everyone else, including people I liked/trusted such as **Suburban Plankton** , seemed to believe her, I figured okay, I must be wrong. No more votes for **Normal**. I’ve already explained the **LightFoot** vote. My next vote was for **Red Skeezix** , because I believed **ShadowFacts**. So when **ShadowFacts** was proven town, you’re darn tootin’ I’m voting **Red Skeezix** again. But no double-voting from me, not yet. I think this has been a mistake, I see that now. Since everyone else is double-voting, all I’m doing by remaining true to my “double-voting sucks” conviction is denying myself half a voice. Admittedly I don’t think my voice counts for much, but still, this is how the mechanic works in this game, so I need to unclench and accept that double-voting is apparently a must. I do have strong convictions about things, but when it comes to _actually lynching_ a potential teammate, I get gun-shy. (Pardon the mixed metaphor.) I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Someone above said that my outbursts don’t make sense for a newbie. That’s dead wrong. I’m frustrated that my first game is turning out this way, and not just because of one loud, certain-he’s-right guy, but because I misjudged my own ability to understand the nuances of the game, and am so patently not cut out for it. I’ve turned into one of those annoying newbies like **Silver Jan** (sorry hon, but…) and **fluiddruid** and, uh, someone else whose name I forgot. You know the type, the one who gets hysterical and takes everything too personally. At this point, I shouldn’t mind if you lynch me or if I get murdered, because my enjoyment of the game is next to nil and this way I can vent my ass off in the spoiler thread. 😃 But that’s selfish of me, because the truth is, if you lynch me, you’re wasting yet _another_ lynch on an innocent townsperson when you could be going after **Red** , whose behavior has been proven scummy courtesy of the late lamented **ShadowFacts**. And to waste a lynch on me, just as to waste a block on me, would be a damn shame. I want town to _win_, and we’re not doing a very good job at it. _Stop listening to someone who thinks he’s 100% right_ about suspects a, b and c until he’s proven wrong, then claims that it was all a Masterstroke and the _real_ suspects whom he’s doubted all along are d, e, and f, most of whom he thinks scummy only 'cause of their reactions to a “baited” question, even though their reactions are pretty mixed and rather meh. Yeah, that’s genius strategy. You may be town, **Pizza** , but you’re doing the scums’ job for them. Nice going. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2290 "2011-08-14T17:13:13Z")
Missed the edit window. But this line: > [@me](#): > > But you liked septimus for scumbag, and everyone though the was guilty. So you don’t think maybe, possibly, you’re wrong on this one too? Should read: > [@me](#): > > But you liked septimus for scumbag, and everyone though s/he was guilty. So you don’t think maybe, possibly, they’re right on this one too? (Fixed typo and backwards logic.) ---
**Author:** ![gnarlycharlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@gnarlycharlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarlycharlie)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2291 "2011-08-14T18:02:36Z")
**choie** , if you think **Pizza** is wrong, fine. railing about it won’t help town either if you stop there. make your case. tell us who you think is scum. you can use another wall of words or just a couple of sentences. personally, i don’t understand your ‘tantrum.’ so far the only thing **Pizza** has dominated is the conversation. it has not translated to votes. sure he made a lot of cases. did we lynch who he wanted? when he wanted **Shadowfacts** lynched, did we? we lynched **Shadowfacts** after he said that he felt **Inner Stickler** and **Suburban Plankton** would be better choices. he’s arguing against lynching **Red Skeezix** and yet **Red Skeezix** is lynch leader. the only player we lynched that he wanted was **septimus**. we still control our votes. your wall of words just makes me shake my head. all you’ve said is that **Pizza** has been wrong so don’t bother to listen to him. does that really help town? maybe he’s finally right. you’ve reacted when you got some votes. it feels a lot like you’re squirming. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2292 "2011-08-14T23:32:41Z")
I must have been tired last night, I missed out half of what I meant to say about Hirka. I was thinking that he seems really solid, but there is some wobble after Septimus does the last-minute vote save Hirka votes him straight away for it, considers things, and lets the vote stand, then reconsiders, and unvotes him. Not that people can’t change their minds, but it is a break in his normal pattern. Then you get the same wobble when it is Shadowfacts vs. Red Skeezix. His claim: I think he wanted to claim, because he wanted to say how come he found Normal Phase so townie. This being why he accepts her cases as basis for his votes, I guess. This seems like an incredibly scummy voting practice to me. Find a townie, and do what they do. But it could also be a newbie voting practice (it’s not for me to call Hirka a newbie when he has as much experience as me, but I know how much I am influenced by the ‘senior’ players). In summary: I thought Hirka was solidly Town, but now I am seeing cracks everywhere. Not ready to make a vote yet,with so much time left in the day, and more suspects to look at, but Hirka does look suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2293 "2011-08-14T23:55:34Z")
USCDiver: Has been pretty quiet. He voted once for Septimus, because his claim didn’t have any levelling up details. He voted for Red Skeezix, and ATPG, then double-voted Red, single voted Red, and has voted for him again today. I am not really grasping the cases against him, except that hasn’t posted much. His claim: he was the first vanilla to jump in, in the latest round of claiming, and it felt forced to me, like he really wanted to get his claim out there. Since it was for vanilla town, it’s not much of a claim. I don’t know why he did that, but since he has been pretty consistently on Red Skeezix, if Red is scum, then I think Diver is probably town. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2294 "2011-08-15T05:04:09Z")
Let’s count some votes! Red Skeezix (4): Normal Phase [2221], Choie [2223], USCDiver [2226], Weedy [2249] Mental Guy (2): Normal Phase [2221], Hirka T’Bawa [2227] USCDiver (2): Askthepizzaguy [2230], gnarlycharlie [2280] Choie (2): gnarlycharlie [2280], Askthepizzaguy [2281] With these votes, Red Skeezix would be lynched. Remember, day ends on **Wednesday** , August 17th at\*\* 5 pm\*\* central time. Please note that Days are now one day shorter and one hour earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2295 "2011-08-15T09:07:37Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Okay, time for my own Wall of Words. > > I just cannot believe you guys are falling down the **pizza** hole _again_. > > This is the guy who was **dead wrong** about not just one but three townies, and I’m not talking early on in the game, but yesterday (literally, not just game yesterDay). Up until Dawn, **pizza** was utterly convinced, 100% certain, that he was right about **Suburban Plankton** , whom he’s called “scumbag” for a month now. And all Day yesterDay he was pushing us, pleading with us, haranguing us, to join him and kill **Inner Stickler**. For that matter, he also thought **ShadowFacts** was guilty, and it was only once it was clear the majority was already on that train that he switched to **Inner**. (Dang that’s a scum move right there. If a townie acts like scum even when proven townie… we’re all in big trouble!) I was pretty darned certain on septimus too, and I was correct. Sometimes townies make mistakes, and are fallible. The one holding me to a standard of infallibility is you. This above quote does nothing to find scum, has no point of any significance, and serves to discredit the only scanned townie in the game. Dang, that’s a scum move right there. > [@](#): > > Now **ShadowFacts** has been proven townie, **Inner Stickler** is proven townie, and **Suburban Plankton** has proven townie. And **pizza** is proven to be … not a very good guesser. I’d say better than, but I’ll stop myself right there. This isn’t a contest, it’s a friendly game. > [@](#): > > But he quickly comes up with an entirely new set of characters to tar with the scum brush. Should I just say well, I was wrong on people… I’d better stop trying? > [@](#): > > He’s once again utterly convinced, 100% certain, that he’s right about these three new suspects. And my guess is that he’s gonna start pushing, pleading and haranguing us with his opinions yet again. Maybe. > [@](#): > > So his only reason for not turning against **Red Skeezix** , who was seen attacking the innocent **ShadowFacts** and who hasn’t managed a kill the entire game? "Gee, everyone else is against him, so I’m gonna be for him. If everyone’s against him he MUST be innocent! Look at **Kelly** and **Silver** and **ShadowFacts**! Um, but not **Septimus**.) Is that argument really sound? Jesus, that’s the same argument I used when voting for the then-unproven **LightFoot** , and it was dumb then and it’s dumb now. Well, that’s a lie; that’s not the only reason. So either you didn’t read what I said (and that’s fine, but then you’re not in a position to be arguing against what I said) or you did read what I said and are now lying about it. Both are anti-town moves. So, why are you distorting the facts, choie? > [@](#): > > Difference is, I knew my vote didn’t matter, and I was rather pathetically trying to copy **pizza** ’s idea for drawing people out into discussion via pressure. I really wish you wouldn’t kick yourself over and over. At least keep it focused on me where it belongs… or on suspects, where it \*really \*belongs. > [@](#): > > Anyway, so today, what do a couple of my alleged fellow townies do, now that **pizza** has been proven wrong and not a very good guesser after all? They _listen to this guy’s words as if he really is Yoda_. Double-u Tee Eff?!! Today, I accused a couple people who are not proven innocent, have no alibi, and haven’t gotten serious pressure. Today, I showed why Hirka’s moves spared septimus twice and seemed to be deliberately for that purpose, and then started fence-sitting when two (I believe) townies were on the block. Today, I showed that Diver’s vote on septimus was pretty weak when it could have been a double-vote, a double-vote he then used the next day for the purposes of sparing the guy he apparently thought was guilty enough to die the day before, and then followed up with a single vote on Red Skeezix the day after that. Why was the double-vote necessary in the middle? The single votes indicate either not sureness, or not wanting someone to die from your vote, or not wanting to seem most responsible for their death. Two of those things are scummy, and I’ve ruled out “not sureness” as a reason because double-voting Red was sureness. I showed all these things, and choie’s response is to go “Why are people listening to a confirmed townie’s reasoning and evidence? Why aren’t they bashing him for his mortal failures and criticizing his play style?” Double-U Tee Eff indeed. > [@](#): > > Which is _exactly_ the way you reacted when I voted for **LightFoot**. But it’s different for you, because you have _reasons_ and _dual purposes_ for “most everything” you do. A master chess player… who was dead freakin’ wrong about THREE townies less than 24 hours ago. Yeah, it’s amazing that in a guessing game, someone can be wrong. Are you suggesting that makes me guilty? No? Well, are you suggesting that makes me completely incompetent? Is that what you’re suggesting? I’m not sure you are. You have also said that I have “a lot of experience and can be a tremendous help to us”. \*\*Okay, so I’m not mafia and I’m not incompetent, and I can be of help. But, no one should listen to what I have to say.\*\* > [@](#): > > Remember where you asked me why I think you think you’re infallible? This kind of self-aggrandizing stuff right here. You’ve promoted me \*as \*promoting myself far more than I’ve promoted myself. **Right now, I’m trying to find scum and you’re saying I’m full of myself. Which behavior is more likely to find scum?** > [@](#): > > Can we use a **pizza** -to-English translator and just say “I was wrong about **Suburban** all game and pushed for the death of **Inner Stickler** all day yesterday, and if everyone had bought it, we’d have lynched the innocent town doctor”? I guess you’ve never been wrong this game. Oh wait. > [@](#): > > I’m flabbergasted by this. It’s the biggest load of twaddle I’ve read all game. The argument for **Red Skeezix** ’s innocence is solely “EVERYONE ALWAYS WANTS HIM DEAD EXCEPT ME.” Seriously? And yet you stil think you don’t come across as egocentric? See, here you said “solely”, which is false, and reading egocentrism into my behavior when I mention that I’ve been trying to not lynch him. That’s a fact, the \*\*egocentrism \*\*is what you’re READING INTO the behavior, that’s not what’s actually happening. Kindly stop doing that, thanks in advance. It is not game-related and is insulting. Instead of ad hominems, show why I’m wrong on suspects or accuse your own. Leave the **person who types** as Askthepizzaguy out of this discussion. It is not relevant to the game and is grating on MY nerves now. > [@](#): > > “Everyone” doesn’t want him dead. We’ve only heard from a few people so far, and it’s very early in the Day, and there’s plenty of time for them to “bus” **Red** early to get some town cred and then change their mind later on. Note that no one has locked in on him yet. Fine, I’ll go through the game and mark down all the people who have voted for him or mentioned him as a top suspect and give some context to that comment. > [@](#): > > Self-deprecation?! But that’s a scum-tell, isn’t it? Everyone says it’s a scum-tell! Oh wait, no, it’s only a scum-tell when **choie** does it. In her first game. Because to admit you’re not good at the game is to try and manipulate everyone and be eeeeevil. (Yes, I mentioned my newbieness again. Lynch me, hurry up!) 😕 …moving on. > [@](#): > > Firstly, there are four days left to this Day. Placing one vote is easy as hell, and the natural result of learning that **ShadowFacts** ’s desperate pleas and accusations were right all along. **Red** attacked him. **Red** hasn’t attacked anyone who’s been proven scummy all game long, in fact. That’s damning, and all Day yesterday the smart money was saying that if **ShadowFacts** flipped town, we’d go after **Red**. And so some of us are. > > But no, you insist that ONLY YOU are examining everything. (There’s that famous humility again.) The rest of us are mere lemmings, unable to think without Daddy **pizza** reminding us of our duty. Did anyone give any reasons why Red might not have been responsible for last night’s death? Anyone? That would be “examining” things. Repeating the same things from days ago (and not adding new reasoning) isn’t examining things in my book. It’s not doing nothing, but it’s also not thinking critically, or if there’s thinking critically involved, it’s not showing others, with posts, that you’re doing it. > [@](#): > > Yeah, that’s nice flattery. Except you’re only saying that because you think I’m scum. Which I’m so incredibly not. So anytime I compliment choie, it’s insincere, but anytime I even mention myself, I’m self-aggrandizing? I’m only being seen as a bad guy here, and not for game-related scumbag-related reasons, and I’m not going to respond to it. > [@](#): > > Every single thing you accuse me of is explained by my newness. Yes, again I’m using that as a defense, but fuck it, since it looks like you’re rolling up the **choie** -lynch Express, I might as well use what I got. > > I’m becoming more vocal for two reasons. First, I know it’s better for town if we all talk more, and people – people like **LightFoot** and **ShadowFacts** – suggested that I need to participate more. Second, because _you_ are almost single-handedly derailing this game and acting like the Pied Piper of De’endee by leading people down the wrong paths. What exactly have I done that’s wrong, to you? 1. Being the first or second major accuser of someone 2. Arguing for someone’s lynch 3. Lynching someone who was townie 4. Lynching someone who was scum 5. Changing my mind when new evidence is presented I’m wondering how any of this is unusual behavior in a mafia game. Also, as others have noted, I’ve gotten the person I voted for lynched once, and that guy was scum. Pied piper? Really, if you’re going to play the track record game, you’re on very shaky ground choie. You’ve argued against septimus as being scummy while agreeing with the reason why someone would find him scummy, and did nothing to lynch him. You did vote for some now dead townies. Let’s play the compare history game if you want to play it. I don’t want to, because it’s petty and pointless and doesn’t catch scum. > [@](#): > > And you were pushing people so loudly to vote against folks I believed to be innocent, which chafed the hell out of me. Yeah, like how you pushed for Lightfoot and Normal, one of whom was townie and the other of whom is one of the reasons why we have any dead scums, and it chafed me when you did it. That said, I didn’t stop you from doing it, because what if you were right? I said it was a bad idea, which I’m entitled to, but I’m not after you because you accused some townies. I’m after you and others for other reasons, such as defending scumbags, which is scummier in my book than lynching townies, especially since townies are going to end up lynching townies way more often than they will be defending scumbags, and scumbags are going to defend scumbags way more often than zero times. > [@](#): > > Again, if **LightFoot** hadn’t confirmed you, I’d be dead certain you were scum, because you are acting incredibly anti-Town. Why? Because I’ve voted for two or three suspects this round and stated why? You’re the one who is focusing on the person who types as Pizzaguy and complaining about play style instead of focusing on the game. That is anti-town. > [@](#): > > You were riding **Suburban** nearly _all game_, and were pushing us all to vote against **Inner** yesterday. That was wrong. That was, frankly, scummy. Okay, so vote for me. I’m scummy, therefore scum, right? > [@](#): > > And now everyone’s just gonna follow your words? Like they have all game long? Oh wait, that was just fiction invented by you. They’ve lynched my top suspect in a round exactly once, and I argued AGAINST the TexCat lynch and I argued against the ShadowFacts lynch. I did press hard for Inner Stickler, yes I did, and people rightly ignored me on that one. I pressed hard for septimus, and people didn’t ignore me and good for them. But if Hirka is scum, then ignoring me on Koldanar was a wrong move. If you are scum, ignoring me on you is a wrong move. If Diver is scum, ignoring me on Diver is a wrong move. Instead of focusing on the fact that I’ve made cases on townies in the past, why not talk about who the current suspects are and why they are or are not guilty. It’s not a defense to smear a confirmed townie up and down and sideways, mostly for things that aren’t even related to the game itself, just your seeming personal dislike for them. > [@](#): > > Jesus, I wasn’t really serious when I asked if it’s possible to have _two_ Mafia godfathers. But dayum, if anyone’s a Beguiler, it’s **Askthepizzaguy**. 'kay. > [@](#): > > Yes, you’re very very flexible. To repeat: up until 6PM ET, you were **100% convinced** that **Inner Stickler** and **Suburban Plankton** were scum, and pretty certain **ShadowFacts** was scum too. Indeed, you have thought **Suburban Plankton** guilty throughout almost the entire game, continually calling him “scumbag” and dismissing his arguments because of his _obvious_ guilt. > > The only thing that changed your mind was the inescapable proof of his murder at Dawn. But of course you knew people were innocent before the fact, even before they were revealed as power roles and confirmed by one another? Did you happen to know who the guilty parties were? Why didn’t you tell us who they were, choie? > [@](#): > > Why is it certain that we _have_ a vigilante? Does every game have one? No, there will be a vigilante in some games and not in others. I could repeat the reasons why I believe Red Skeezix is a vigilante, assuming you’ll kindly read those reasons and not pick one thing and then say that’s the only reason. > [@](#): > > But you liked **septimus** for scumbag, and everyone though the was guilty. So you don’t think maybe, possibly, you’re wrong on this one too? Nah! C’est incroyable! Nuance, choie. You are doing a scummy thing when you ignore the context and meaning of my words and insert your own. What did I say? Did I say “it is always a wrong case when everyone agrees” or did I give an exception? What was the exception? Does giving an exception in my example, followed by you ignoring that exception, mean I never gave an exception or had nuance to what I was saying? You’ve been very persistent in putting words in my mouth that I did not say, and ignoring words I did say which affect the entire meaning of my thoughts. Speculating as to the motive for what I actually said, that’s fair game. But saying I said things I didn’t and ignoring things I did say is scummy. **Now, kindly spare me your defense of “Oh now everything I do is scummy? Predictable, Pizzaguy! Roll eyes.”** Because that’s scummy, and predictable. Roll eyes. > [@](#): > > I reacted to the idea of blocking me the way any normal person would – especially a vanilla – because it was a waste of a move by our investigator. How should I have reacted instead, O Swami? Well, I’ll tell you my reaction to this quote. This is your claimed reason for doing so, and I respectfully and IN-GAME disagree with you and am IN-GAME, respectfully, suggesting that you’re lying, and you’re guilty, and the reason you did so was because for the reasons I suggested, and we agree to disagree, and I vote for you or someone I find scummier, and that’s all part of the game. How you should have reacted, I’ll give my thoughts on after the game if you’re townie. Right now, it’s not even remotely relevant to anything. > [@](#): > > I have _no_ idea how I failed your test on whether I’d vote for **Hirka** or **USCDiver** , two names seemingly pulled from out of your-- uh – let’s say out of thin air. My response was simple. Since I believe **ShadowFacts** and think **Red Skeezix** is guilty, I looked back on their votes and saw that they both voted for him. Nothing else stands out as scummy to me in their play, so I currently said I’m leaning townie. I also said I wanted to take another look at **Koldanar** ’s posts, since s/he played the same role as **Hirka** before pulling out of the game. All right, well I could continue this line of inquiry and ask, as I have asked you before, should Red Skeezix flip townie, what would your opinion be then? Well, it’s been done, so I’m discontinuing this line of inquiry. > [@](#): > > But apparently this was a bad answer. I guess I was supposed to say “AW _HELL_ YEAH, KILL THE BASTARDS!” out of nowhere, is that it? No… but your opinion on those two people sort of matters if they’re scum, or if you are, at least it matters to me, because you’re all currently suspects and I’m trying to figure out who the guilty parties are, among said suspects. It’s really not such a crazy idea, really. It’s sort of a basic thing that’s done every round, asking questions, asking opinions, and finding the opinions of others to be more or less incriminating, or more or less exonerating. Is this really bothering you? > [@](#): > > Because you have a “hunch” that you weren’t even gracing me with, yet? Yes, I wanted to know what your opinion was before I stated several reasons why I felt Red Skeezix was innocent, and several reasons why Hirka and Diver were guilty, so I could see where your thoughts were at, and if you’ve thought about them as suspects at all or not, and why. It’s all part of the game. > [@](#): > > See, this is how you play things – you actually just play hunches. I could play with exact knowledge based upon knowing who the mafia are, but it wouldn’t be much of a game then would it. > [@](#): > > You just talk so loudly and longly that eventually people thinkj you have great cases. That theory didn’t quite pan out in practice, did it? And people didn’t think I had great cases. > [@](#): > > But you don’t. Your casework helped get **ShadowFacts** killed, and could’ve lost us **Suburban** and **Inner** too, if people had listened. Your reason for believing **gnarlycharlie** and **Mental Guy**? “I just have a good feeling.” Now there’s solid logic and reasoning for ya. Well what do you want me to do, choie? Would you like me to state several brief reasons, so you can ignore all but one and go “THIS IS YOUR SOLE REASON?”, would you like me to post a big long case detailing why they’re innocent, so you can go “you just talk so loudly and longly that eventually people think you have great cases”, or would you like me to say I have a hunch they’re innocent? Because all three of those are wrong. So I suppose doing nothing, and then voting for someone, and unvoting that someone in the same post, would be a better strategy, and more pro-townie of me. Is that it? Or what is your point, because it eludes me. > [@](#): > > Nah, you’re not sorry, because if you were really sorry you’d change. I am not going to change my style just because choie doesn’t like it. Sorry, that’s a bit egocentric of you to assume. > [@](#): > > And thanks for the flattery but since it involves stringing me up, I’ll just say nertz! You’re welcome, and it wasn’t flattery, it was sincere, and I’ll repeat it after the game if you’re still not sure. > [@](#): > > So there it is. Singularly underwhelming, isn’t it? I know, easy to fake. What does this part mean? " --------------------------------------------------------------------------------" This line, which doesn’t exist in the townie NPC roles I’ve seen? Could it be the dividing line between your real, mafia role, and your pretend, townie role? That thing which separates the two role PMs? Possibly. But I also believe it could be just something Astral threw in to make sure the NPC roles weren’t cookiecutter. Still, since I’ve hosted some games (yes, I’m drawing on my past experiences, which involves referencing the word “I” or “I’m”, and in most contexts, this does not mean that I am suffering from thinks I’m God syndrome) since I’ve hosted some games, and been mafia before, I know that sometimes game hosts like to save time by including the cover role with the scum role in the same PM. Now, if that were the only reason why choie could seem guilty, it would still be a better case than zero. I’d find it kind of lame to win or lose a game based on that, so I’m going to ignore it for the sake of being fair. I’m only focusing on your votes and behavior, which is more than fair in a game where all we do is vote and expose our behavior through posts. It’s not unfair, right? Okay. > [@](#): > > At this point, I shouldn’t mind if you lynch me or if I get murdered, because my enjoyment of the game is next to nil and this way I can vent my ass off in the spoiler thread. 😃 But that’s selfish of me, because the truth is, if you lynch me, you’re wasting yet _another_ lynch on an innocent townsperson when you could be going after **Red** , whose behavior has been proven scummy courtesy of the late lamented **ShadowFacts**. And to waste a lynch on me, just as to waste a block on me, would be a damn shame. Yes, if you’re town it is a shame if you get lynched. So, how about if I voted for Hirka, or Diver instead? And of those two, do you have ANY preference whatsoever as to which one I should vote for? Is Red Skeezix the only person you’re prepared to talk about today? > [@](#): > > I want town to _win_, and we’re not doing a very good job at it. _Stop listening to someone who thinks he’s 100% right_ about suspects a, b and c until he’s proven wrong, then claims that it was all a Masterstroke and the _real_ suspects whom he’s doubted all along are d, e, and f, most of whom he thinks scummy only 'cause of their reactions to a “baited” question, even though their reactions are pretty mixed and rather meh. Yeah, that’s genius strategy. I think septimus also said for people to stop listening to me before he died. It’s getting to be a tired refrain. You know, if I’m wrong, and the townies listen to me, and we lose the game, it is not just my fault, it is also their fault. They have free will, and they’ve exercised it by \*\*almost always \*\*not doing what I’ve suggested, and when I’ve been correct, they’ve followed through. I have faith in them to withstand the evil certainty of my posts and mind-altering loudness, and actually make up their own darned minds when I give reasons for stuff. Would it be okay if I kept giving reasons for things? Or is that anti-town? > [@](#): > > You may be town, **Pizza** , but you’re doing the scums’ job for them. Nice going. One might define that as the role of a vanilla townie. To provide cover and distraction for, and to provide the bad reasoning for the bad cases on the wrong suspects, so the mafia can win. Or, that vanilla townie might guess correctly, and be ignored. Or, that vanilla townie might guess correctly, and help win the game. Except that vanilla townie doesn’t get to knowingly choose which one it is that they’re doing. They can only try to win, and succeed and fail on their and their team’s own merits. I would lock on choie here, because for several reasons, some of which I’ve stated before, I think choie is scum. And I am kind of growing tired of being the sole focus of her not-game-related attention. That said, voting based on oog reasons isn’t very fun. Now, unless I get something more constructive out of choie, I’m going to ask other people what their thoughts are, and skim past choie’s posts without reading them. It’s a favor I’d like returned from choie until she’s willing to talk to me instead of sneer at me. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2296 "2011-08-15T09:20:03Z")
> [@USCDiver](#): > > “If I asked you to?” No. **Two questions:** Would you have any preference whatsoever if I voted for Hirka or choie today? Would you like a shorter version of the case on either one to assist you in answering question one? ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2297 "2011-08-15T10:31:52Z")
I’m not the first person to look at Mental Guy. Stanislaus,and especially Normal have been questioning him for a while. The gist is that Mental Guy, while ‘safe’, has a tendency to use ‘empowered’ smudges. Having voted for someone, he then has a list of people that he has mostly rejected voting for, but still thinks would make good lynches. E.g. Day 1, he votes Kelly, unvotes Kelly and votes Koldanar, but still likes the idea of a Kelly lynch. So it’s subtle, but I see what she means. He votes for septimus, because he didn’t know if he had been targetted or not. Voting for septimus seems good, but the reason is less convincing, and maybe designed to be unconvincing. I find Mental Guy a bit hard to get a handle on. I am uneasy about him now, because of little things (e.g. defending Septimus on Day 2, before anything happened), but I am not totally convinced. I find Hirka scummier, and I don’t think they would be scum together, because Mental Guy voted for Koldanar twice. Not that Koldanar was ever in any danger, but voting for a scumbuddy unprovoked seems quite daring to me, and Mental Guy does not come across as daring. His claim: he wanted a mass claim, so I can’t blame him for claiming. Whether or not a mass claim was a good idea, I don’t know. He wasn’t the only one talking about it. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2298 "2011-08-15T10:36:18Z")
I’d agree with your analysis that if either one is scum, Hirka and Mental are probably not scum together; especially with Hirka voting for MentalGuy today. Hirka wasn’t under pressure when this happened, so I tend to believe it is more genuine a vote. He really does want MentalGuy dead. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2299 "2011-08-15T11:26:18Z")
I’m doing a full re-read of the game again, this time noting the following persons: **choie Koldanar/Hirka Diver septimus MentalGuy** I note what their stances towards everyone in the game are, and what others’ stances towards them are, and I note their votes and who voted for them and when. So far, it’s very interesting. I can rule out lots of scum pairings and I’m only on day 2. And I’ve found absolutely nothing that counterindicates against choie being scum with Hirka, or Diver being scum with Hirka. And I do see some of our living players have voted in such a way that they’re almost certainly not scum with Hirka, namely gnarlycharlie, MentalGuy, Weedy, and the dead townies Lightfoot, Jan, and Scathach also all voted for him. Velly intellesting. At post 801 now. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2300 "2011-08-15T12:04:52Z")
> [@MentalGuy](#): > > Before I post my preliminary thoughts on the events of the previous Day and Night, I thought I would share this vote record for anyone who is interested. I spent the time to make it, might as well let players use it if they can. > > Day 1 > > RedSkeezix - [del]Askthepizzaguy 137[/del] 225 > Tom Scud - [del]Normal Phase 140[/del] 196 > choie - [del]pedescribe 150[/del] 184 > pedescribe - [del]Stanislaus 159[/del] 204,\*\* Silver Jan\*\* 382 > **special ed** - [del]Suburban Plankton 169[/del] 277, [del] **special ed** 372[/del] 436 > **Kelly Criterion** - [del]Normal Phase 196[/del] 338, [del]ShadowFacts 203[/del] 360, Stanislaus 204, [del]MentalGuy 217[/del], choie 247, [del] **Silver Jan** 285[/del], **Scathach** 293, **Special Ed** 295, **TexCat** 315, Suburban Plankton 342, LightFoot 361, Normal Phase 397, USCDiver 432, **special ed** 449 > Koldanar - [del] **Scathach** 211[/del] 293, Askthepizzaguy 225, MentalGuy 319, Romanic 363, **Scathach** 411, **Silver Jan** 416 > Normal Phase -\*\* KellyCriterion\*\* 213, [del] **Silver Jan** 227[/del] 274 > Askthepizzaguy - gnarlycharlie 228, Koldanar 238, septimus 248 > **Silver Jan** - Red Skeezix 233, ShadowFacts 360, pedescribe 369, choie 419, [del]MentalGuy 429[/del] 431, USCDiver 432, Suburban Plankton 433 > Romanic - [del] **Silver Jan** 324[/del] 366 > septimus - Normal Phase 338, [del] **special ed** 371[/del] 372 > Suburban Plankton - [del] **special ed** 436[/del] 449 > Day 2 > septimus - Askthepizzaguy 488, Askthepizzaguy 528, Normal Phase 658, **special ed** 680, septimus 829, **special ed** 832 > ShadowFacts - [del]Normal Phase 490[/del] 829, [del]Red Skeezix 601[/del] 790, Hirka T’Bawa 820, Hirka T’Bawa 826 > **special ed** - [del]Stanislaus 531[/del] 591, **Silver Jan** 721, **Silver Jan** 752, [del]Weedy 761[/del] 773, **TexCat** 783 > gnarlycharlie - MentalGuy 542, [del]Normal Phase 543[/del] 658 > Koldanar - MentalGuy 542 > Normal Phase - [del]\*\*special ed \*\*544[/del] 680, choie 566, gnarlycharlie 649, ShadowFacts 812 > Askthepizzaguy - [del] **special ed** 544[/del], pedescribe 553, pedescribe 553, [del]septimus 572[/del] 838, [del]Weedy 611[/del] 740, USCDiver 628 > **Silver Jan** - choie 566, [del]ShadowFacts 575[/del], [del] **special ed** 588[/del] 832, Suburban Plankton 595, Red Skeezix 601, Inner Stickler 610, Weedy 791, septimus 838, septimus 838 > choie - [del] **Silver Jan** 569[/del], [del]Suburban Plankton 595[/del] 722 > Koldanar - LightFoot 597 > USCDiver - gnarlycharlie 649, LightFoot 821 > MentalGuy - Stanislaus 659 > **TexCat** - Suburban Plankton 722 > pedescribe - ShadowFacts 770 > Day 3, > septimus - [del]Hirka T’Bawa 885[/del] 1091, [del]Normal Phase 887[/del] 947, [del]Inner Stickler 888[/del], Stanislaus 893, gnarlycharlie 959, MentalGuy 968, Red Skeezix 1065, USCDiver 1098 > ShadowFacts - Hirka T’Bawa 885, Askthepizzaguy 1030, Red Skeezix 1065, Normal Phase 1080, Hirka T’Bawa 1091, **TexCat** 1192, **TexCat** 1192 > choie - [del]Askthepizzaguy 905[/del] 988, [del]Weedy 923[/del] 1205, [del]Normal Phase 1047[/del] > pedescribe - [del]Weedy 923[/del] 1044 > Normal Phase - choie 930, [del]septimus 1009[/del] 1121, [del]ShadowFacts 1090[/del] 1195 > MentalGuy - gnarlycharlie 959 > gnarlycharlie - MentalGuy 968 > Stanislaus - [del]Askthepizzaguy 988[/del] 1067 > **TexCat** - [del]Askthepizzaguy 988[/del] 1030, Normal Phase 1007, Suburban Plankton 1014, septimus 1023, Weedy 1044, LightFoot 1109, Suburban Plankton 1167, septimus 1178, ShadowFacts 1195, ShadowFacts 1195, Weedy 1205, Inner Stickler 1210, Inner Stickler 1210 > Suburban Plankton - [del]\*\*TexCat \*\*1018[/del], [del]Askthepizzaguy 1067[/del] 1175 > Askthepizzaguy - [del]septimus 1121[/del] This thing needs to be reposted, updated, and filled in with more color. Please, I need volunteer for that task. I am very busy atm but I really want to see the new chart. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=114) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=116)