# De'endee Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 6, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052 "2011-07-06T16:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/221 "2011-07-13T05:35:16Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Thanks **special ed,** does that mean mods have been known to change up even the vanilla town PMs? Yes, if that’s the method they chose. I did that in a recent game I co-moderated on a different board ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/222 "2011-07-13T05:43:32Z")
Can you give an example of how a mod might change up the “same” role PM for different players? ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/223 "2011-07-13T05:48:14Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Can you give an example of how a mod might change up the “same” role PM for different players? Here is the spoiler board for that game that I co-modded with Ulla. > **[Oops, there was an error! | The Lost World of Mafia](https://ullz.proboards.com/board/4)** > > Visit our forum at: ullz.proboards.com Pay attention to the Vanilla PM thread as well. We made each and every PM individual and didn’t repeat any of the win conditions. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/224 "2011-07-13T05:50:56Z")
And the Scum and 3rd party players were provided with some of those PMs as cover roles. In addition, somewhat controversially, we agreed to create fake PMs for any players who wanted one. They just provided the role and the powers they wanted, and we created them. handshaking would have been impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/225 "2011-07-13T07:16:48Z")
**unvote: Red Skeezix** **vote: Koldanar** Vote on Skeezix isn’t going anywhere, others mentioned Koldanar as a possible choice. Not going to join the Kellywagon just yet. I prefer to make Koldanar squirm a bit first. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/226 "2011-07-13T07:54:08Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > **unvote: Red Skeezix** > **vote: Koldanar** > > Vote on Skeezix isn’t going anywhere, others mentioned Koldanar as a possible choice. > > Not going to join the Kellywagon just yet. I prefer to make Koldanar squirm a bit first. Your reasoning seems unreasonable ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/227 "2011-07-13T08:28:43Z")
Well, it looks as if I have pinged **Normal Phase** already, was that a FOS? I am definitly Town in this game so all Normal has on me really is from metagaming (where I was scum) so **Vote Normal Phase** It might be an OMGUS vote but in the last game (metagaming) I was too scared to vote for her because then she would have known for sure that I was scum. This is also to get a vote in so that I have a voting record whether I am right or wrong. I must admit I haven’t read everything as carefully as I should because I became a Grandmother yesterday 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![gnarlycharlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@gnarlycharlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarlycharlie)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/228 "2011-07-13T09:01:02Z")
welcome **USCDiver**! > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > **unvote: Red Skeezix** > **vote: Koldanar** > > Vote on Skeezix isn’t going anywhere, others mentioned Koldanar as a possible choice. > > Not going to join the Kellywagon just yet. I prefer to make Koldanar squirm a bit first. i was leaning towards voting for **Kelly** because of his reaction to **Stanislaus** ’ citing previous games where a misphrase isn’t necessarily a scum tell. i would have been embarrassed but thankful that a flaw in my reasoning was pointed out so i wouldn’t vote for a fellow Town player. his reaction was more like ‘Fine. Whatever.’ however, **Askthepizzaguy** ’s logic for voting **Koldanar** makes no sense at all. **Vote Askthepizzaguy** i’m still suspicious of **Kelly** but i’m not ready to make a second vote. **Ed** , any reason for pointing out **Askthepizzaguy** ’s post but not voting for him? you haven’t voted yet so it’s not going to lock you in. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/229 "2011-07-13T10:00:50Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > Your reasoning seems unreasonable I’m still getting warmed up. I have not yet \*begun \*to unreason. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/230 "2011-07-13T10:09:50Z")
> [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > however, **Askthepizzaguy** ’s logic for voting **Koldanar** makes no sense at all. I challenge you on that. How does it not make sense? Vote on Red Skeezix isn’t leading to his death, meanwhile, at least two others have noted that Koldanar might be a good vote. I voted Koldanar as an alternative to the current Kellywagon. Now, your homework assignment is to explain in 400 words or less why there’s anything at all wrong with that logic. I will be awaiting your response with a bemused expression on my face. ---
**Author:** ![Scathach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Scathach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scathach)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/231 "2011-07-13T10:45:30Z")
Why does there have to be an alternative? You haven’t actually said you disagree with the “kellywagon” (love that phrase btw). You just wanted not to be on a bandwagon. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/232 "2011-07-13T10:54:00Z")
> [@Scathach](#): > > Why does there have to be an alternative? You haven’t actually said you disagree with the “kellywagon” (love that phrase btw). You just wanted not to be on a bandwagon. Why? Au contraire. I’ve been known to bandwagon, I just prefer to lead. When I am innocent, my accusations have a decent chance of hitting guilty parties. By following someone else’s wagon, I have no idea if they are guilty, and if they are, then the odds are poorer that I’d be wagoning a guilty person, just by virtue of the fact that the evildoers are not as likely to point fingers at their buddies. Therefore, I prefer to lead, especially if there’s no strong case on anyone else. That’s why I decided to go with Skeezix, since that was my pick and no one else had picked Skeezix. But, I’m not generating much interest in that wagon; therefore I looked at alternatives. I could wagon Kelly, but I’d prefer to spread pressure around. Looking at who others found worthy of a vote, I felt Koldanar might be someone who could generate some interest. I have no reason to disagree with Kelly as a lynch, but I do have reason not to wagon Kelly. A whole bunch of folks leaning one way generates no real pressure on anyone else, kills discussion, and gives nothing to analyze later on in the game. When such wagons are also on innocent targets, I call them “failwagons” because not only do they not catch evildoers, they handicap the innocents by making it harder to overturn the vote if they wanted to, and relieve all pressure on all evil people at the same time, and like I said, kills off discussion too. There is no bigger way to fail. So I don’t do big wagons early on for no reason. I generally disagree with them in all cases, except if there’s a positive result on someone, and even then… you don’t need 10 votes difference between the top candidate and the nearest leading candidate to lynch someone. You could do 4 and have it be safe. I know you folks are new to me, but I am not new to this. There are purposes to my doings. It might take a couple games to familiarize ourselves to one another. Anyway. I don’t mind being voted because my play is unfamiliar, but, you’re not going to get familiar with it if I die so soon. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/233 "2011-07-13T11:45:22Z")
> [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Well, it looks as if I have pinged **Normal Phase** already, was that a FOS? > > I am definitly Town in this game so all Normal has on me really is from metagaming (where I was scum) so > > **Vote Normal Phase** > > It might be an OMGUS vote but in the last game (metagaming) I was too scared to vote for her because then she would have known for sure that I was scum. This is also to get a vote in so that I have a voting record whether I am right or wrong. > > I must admit I haven’t read everything as carefully as I should because I became a Grandmother yesterday 🙂 [OOG]Congrats on becoming a grandmother.[/OOG] That said, I have problems with the rest of your post. 1. You have voted with reasoning that absolves you responsibility for your vote. 2. Your interaction with Normal Phase from previous games has no bearing on this game whatsoever. 3. You have not provided any sort of defense of the position on which Normal Phase has criticized your play. Instead deflecting the points, rather than addressing them. 4. You are asserting that you are “definitly Town” and that any suspicion of your play, is therefore suspect. **vote Silver Jan** ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/234 "2011-07-13T11:57:40Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > - I’m a **boy** townie > > So, the votes are a-coming. What can I say. Yeah, that was a bit aggressive the way I demanded **Stanislaus** show some cites for his claim, but I thought that was in keeping with the “everyone is a suspect tone” approach to Day 1. That I was suspicious of **choie** ’s “all the townies” comment prior to reading any post after it, is something I can merely restate as the truth, but can offer nothing more. I wanted to protect myself against “future criticism” with my bandwagony comment, yes. If I hadn’t, I’d have been accused of bandwagoning, which seems like damned if I do, damned if I don’t. > > So, if any of the votes I have attracted so far are from townies, then please reconsider, because I am not scum. > > vote NormalPhase, for starting a whole line of mis-reasoning that’s piled votes on someone I know to be town (me). Better not try and protect myself against OMGYS responses, coz pre-empting such criticism is apparently bad (or something). This was a great and townie-sounding response up to the vote on me. I don’t personally have a problem with OMGUS votes as such. They’ve caught more than a few scum out on cruddy logic, fake cases, or whatever. But “I voted her because she voted me and I’m obviously a townie”? Come on. If you are town your best move is to make a case on someone and make it a good one, and this isn’t it. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/235 "2011-07-13T11:59:41Z")
> [@TexCat](#): > > I had to laugh at this. I thought at first that we were all agreeing with the uncontroversial statement that Normal is scary. > > And I certainly agree with the welcome for USCDiver! You guys are so good for my ego sometimes. 🙂 Hi Diver. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/236 "2011-07-13T12:05:59Z")
> [@MentalGuy](#): > > On rereading, I was noticing how we were thinking of how we can level up Townies by them voting for scum. We were not considering how the scum level up. If the scum get experience from voting for Town, then if we lynched wrong and had everyone joining the bandwagon on that player, we would be giving the scum a perfect place to hide while they level up. This is just speculation since we don’t know how the scum level up, but I think we should keep in mind that our actions could also benefit them. Agreed in general, but I think in specific there’s little to fear here: voting townies is a scum’s default action. I’d be astonished if Astral gave level points for something as trivial as that. > [@](#): > > For myself, there is only a couple of situations that I am likely to cast a second vote. One, when the lynchee is almost certainly scum (e.g. we have a result from an uncounterclaimed investigator) or it is a very close vote and I want to make it clear that I am voting for the person I feel is most suspicious. > > I think both Normal’s case on Kelly and Scathach’s case on Koldanar are good cases. I also am pinged a bit by Silver Jan finding pede’s behavior scummy but giving him a pass because he unvoted. I like Scathach’s case too. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/237 "2011-07-13T12:15:34Z")
Thanks, Diver. Sorry, guys; at a convention for work next week and too much stuff to deal with before then. I really shouldn’t have signed up. ---
**Author:** ![Koldanar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@Koldanar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koldanar)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/238 "2011-07-13T12:19:12Z")
> [@MentalGuy](#): > > I was thinking I was going to vote for Koldanar, but Kelly’s most recent post has made me change my mind. Normal might ultimately be wrong, but I do not see “mis-reasoning” on her part. > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > unvote: Red Skeezix > vote: Koldanar > > Vote on Skeezix isn’t going anywhere, others mentioned Koldanar as a possible choice. > > Not going to join the Kellywagon just yet. I prefer to make Koldanar squirm a bit first. Damn. Ok, two years off from these games can make you rusty, but I have to assume at this point I’m just bad at this. I’d suggest you can go Meta, and see my first days in the past; I think every time I play I get voted on on day one (except once) and every damn time in the past, I was vanilla. I’m a cautious person, and an anxious one. I don’t like to commit until I’m fairly sure of a vote. Why respond, if I’m not scum? I take it a little personally :eek:. Not enough to make me not want to play, but certainly enough to respond. Now, Askthepizzaguy? A me too! vote on me, when things seem good? Yea, not very nice. You provided no reasoning whatsoever; at least **Scathach** tried to justify it. When challenged, you keep repeating that you felt I could generate interest. Not, you find me suspicious, not you can pull apart any posts I’ve made, but simply (to paraphrase) : Look, my first vote generated no interest, and people are voting for Koldanar. **vote Askthepizzaguy** This, I can get behind. These actions aren’t good. Unless you’re being a lazy townie, and seriously, don’t do that! ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/239 "2011-07-13T12:22:22Z")
> [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Well, it looks as if I have pinged **Normal Phase** already, was that a FOS? If you like. > [@](#): > > I am definitly Town in this game so all Normal has on me really is from metagaming (where I was scum) so > > Vote Normal Phase Giving someone a pass for scummy behavior just because they unvoted is wrong in terms of scum-catching strategy, but it’s the casual way you phrased it that pings. “Well, he was scummy, but he unvoted, so ok” – as if that has anything to do with anything. My experience with you in the last game does compound it. [For those who didn’t play that game: Silver Jan was scum. I was serial killer, but trying to bag at least one scum at some point to keep the town off my back. On day two I brought up Silver Jan for consideration as scum primarily on the basis of two suspicious unvotes from day one – she had voted a pair of townies, been challenged to some extent on both votes, and unvoted both times. I argued that her stated reasons for the unvotes were incongruent with the situation she was in, and that made her scummy. I was right.] So yes, Jan, I do think that the previous game has some relevance here. You were ultimately lynched that game because of scummy unvotes. For you to give Pedescribe a pass on scummy behavior – merely because he unvoted – feels wrong, coming from you. > [@](#): > > It might be an OMGUS vote but in the last game (metagaming) I was too scared to vote for her because then she would have known for sure that I was scum. This is also to get a vote in so that I have a voting record whether I am right or wrong. > > I must admit I haven’t read everything as carefully as I should because I became a Grandmother yesterday 🙂 I’ll give you a bit of a pass on the policy vote due to the grandmother thing, big congratulations. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/240 "2011-07-13T12:26:39Z")
> [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > however, **Askthepizzaguy** ’s logic for voting **Koldanar** makes no sense at all. That’s not true. It makes sense for the reason stated, to add pressure to an existing bandwagon. If you don’t think that quite qualifies as scum-hunting or whatever, that’s one thing, but it absolutely makes sense. More to the point: I think the Koldanar wagon is a good one. Askthepizzaguy, as implied by his vote, agrees. What do you think of it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=13)