# De'endee Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 6, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052 "2011-07-06T16:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 127
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2522 "2011-08-19T15:37:55Z")
Continuing on with looking at references to ShadowFActs. > [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > Day is coming to an end, and I’m busy studying. I’m going to use my 2nd vote to lock myself in, since Shadow is really the person I find scummiest right now. > > **Vote ShadowFacts** > [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > Let me start off the day with an obvious vote … > > **Vote septimus** > > Since I don’t want to lock in a vote this early, I’m also going to > > **Vote shadowfacts** > > For the same reasons as yesterday, disavowing his votes. > [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > About to leave to take my boards, I will be in the test at end of day, so this will probably be my last post toDay. > > I’ve been thinking about my vote for **septimus** , if he is being truthful with his claim, then his actions last night make a sort of sense. Since his actions are the main reason I voted for him, I think I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt (for now). > > **Unvote Septimus** > > I haven’t had time to really review the case against **Texcat** , but she didn’t seem that scummy to me when I was actually reading her posts, so I don’t feel comfortable voting for her right now. > > However, nothing so far has made me doubt the case against **ShadowFacts** , I still think he is most likely scum, and probably the most likely of the top three lynch candidates. Since I won’t be here later, there is no harm in me locking in my votes, so: > > **Vote ShadowFacts** > > Just a note, I believe this makes a three way tie between **Septimus** , **Texcat** , and **ShadowFacts**. I believe there is 7 hours left to End of Day… > > What is the tie policy in this game? > > Go town, I’ll be back after nightfall after I finish my test. > [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > Finished taking my boards, looks like I missed all the fun at end of day. I will say that I for one actually do believe **ShadowFact** ’s claim, even though I double voted for him early. The color he posted about finding Ed’s body just seemed too much like what **Astral** would write. So, I’m glad he lived… Though, I hate that a townie had to die, at least she was an NPC. > > So, if **septimus** , and **ShadowFacts** are telling the truth on their claims (which for now I believe), that doesn’t leave me much in the way of scum suspects. I’m really going to have to reread everyone’s cases against everyone else come Tomorrow. > > However, I won’t be around much toNight, took a long test, so now I’m enjoying some good EtOH all night, then I have to study for my law exam, which I take Monday morning. So… Don’t expect me around too much till Monday evening. > > Sorry I’ve been away and absent since I was subbed in. This is why I didn’t sign up originally. However, I will have much more time after Monday > > Oh, **ATPG** , I loved your color, very creative! This all looks convincingly scummy to me. It’s arguably a tad bit overexplained in places, it’s _definitely_ scum-friendly, and I for one actually think that Septimus’ actions were very much NOT explained by his claim, so I have my doubts that Hirka could have believed that either. He goes very quickly to trusting Shadowfacts, which bugs me, though I’m not sure it’s a scum tell objectively. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2523 "2011-08-19T15:39:48Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > No, because choie has to back up her assertion that she finds Hirka scum, or expose herself as lying about that. > > Thus, we can count on choie’s LOCKING VOTE support against Hirka T’Bawa, or else choie is in fact a scumbag. > > Then, when Hirka flips scum, I will implore the town to listen to me one more time and put choie to death. We can afford to be wrong on choie if we were right on septimus, Red Skeezix, and then Hirka T’Bawa. > > As such, her death is a really simple matter, all we need to do is pressure her to vote for Hirka T’Bawa. When she refuses, we lynch her instead. If she doesn’t refuse, and Hirka flips scum, you can afford to peek under her skirt for me. Jumping jiminy, is De’endee located on an Alpine mountaintop? 'Cause it’s like what I say goes right into thin air, the wind blowing my words away. I voted for **Hirka** yesterday when I didn’t have to. I didn’t double-vote 'cause I’m on record as not liking the double-voting convention, and besides, I thought **Red** was guilty too. Hell, I could’ve double-voted **Red Skeezix** early on to help myself, and probably should have. But despite the burgeoning choiewagon early on, when out of nowhere the tide turned and **Red Skeezix** was bound for the gallows, I realized I could vote my conscience, so I tossed a vote to **Hirka** as a sort of FOS vote. You guys are acting like there’s some rule that people _must_ double-vote on the same person, that it’s a litmus test, and that anyone who doesn’t completely lock in their votes is _de facto_ wishy-washy, ergo they’re scum. Well, I think that’s B.S. There’s a reason that the mods didn’t say that both votes had to be on the same suspect. I strongly believe it’s better and safer for town _not_ to lock in votes except perhaps right at the end of the Day. Because to lock in early means that we get cases where people are stuck with their choices, no matter _how_ the Day progresses and no matter what new information arises. Look at what happened yesterday – you double-voted me, and did your best to convince everyone else of **Red Skeezix** ’s innocence. Then **Red Skeezix** came out of hiding to claim remorseful vig, conveniently having waited for you to lock on me and make your strongest case against me. Despite your belief that this was a move to throw suspicion away from me, it had the opposite effect for a few players – **Inner** certainly and **gnarlycharlie** possibly (assuming he’s Town, which I don’t). So what if even more people had double-voted on me when it was too late to change their minds? Then we’d still have a scum assassin roaming the streets of our fair town. Double-voting is _not_ the only way to win, it’s not the only way to prove one’s convictions. I am absolutely certain that to the contrary, it’s damn reckless to lock in a double-vote early in a Day, and I wouldn’t do it even if you told me it was certain to make me a lynch target. I _would_ double-vote at the end of a Day if it became necessary to save an innocent person and tip the vote toward a guilty one, but I wouldn’t do it early, _ever_. If a double-vote won’t make a difference either way, then I will use my second vote to point the finger at someone. The only time I’ve regretted this was during the **Red Skeezix** / **ShadowFacts** standoff. I fucked up. My forgetting that Day ended an hour early meant I couldn’t place my second vote. (It’s possible that it wouldn’t have helped **ShadowFacts** anyway because everyone _else_ had locked on him and even my second vote would probably have tied things up, and ties go to the first person to reach the tie – **Shadow** , alas.) But even so, I wish I wish I wish my stupid brain had remembered the early Day deadline. Anyway, that’s what I did yesterday. I voted my convictions, which were/are that both **Red** and **Hirka** were scum. So despite my not double-voting for **Hirka** yesterday, hell yes, I think he’s scum. I told you why last night, and your own arguments (\*and on edit, **Normal** ’s too) push me even further in that direction. I also think **gnarlycharlie** is the second and presumably final remaining Lord of Slaughter, with **MentalGuy** as an option and **Stanislaus** as the dark horse option who fooled me by being so awesome. (My trust in **Septimus** is my _bete noire_, dammit. So I’m holding out the possibility that someone I’m convinced is innocent is actually a very very clever Lord of Slaughter.) But absent some astoundingly good defense of **Hirka** from a trusted source like **Inner Stickler** (despite his vote on me, I still trust he’s Town), I will probably cast both my votes on **Hirka**. At this point it may be the only thing that saves me. One more thing. I won’t continue to defend myself, as **pizza** has said there’s no point to it. But **pizza** , after all the evil scummy motivations you’ve ascribed to me, and after all the ultimatums you’ve made to others, I think it’s time for you to be on the other end of that for a change. And don’t worry, it’s not one that puts Town in any jeopardy. Indeed, it will only require you to do something if/when I’m lynched or murdered. With that teensy, vanishingly small benefit of the doubt you allegedly gave me (though it sure doesn’t read like one to me, considering you’re already plotting my death hours later), I’d like you to make a promise to me: If you have a webcam, please, when I die and **Astral Rejection** gives the color that shows the side I’m on, make sure that the cam gets a picture of your reaction. If I’m town, you must post: “I’m very sorry **choie** , I was wrong. And I’m sorry for wasting town’s time for Days by sticking with my _idee fixe_ that you were certainly scum.” With, of course, a link to said picture. If you don’t have a webcam, I’ll just take the statement. BTW, you must do this even if you’re dead. I want your ghostly spectre to arise in the De’endee town square and post that line. Now this may seem a drastic thing to ask of anyone. But what the heck, right? Since you’re so certain I’m scum, and that this result will never happen, you should be able to agree to this. No worries, it’s all good, just some words that you _know_ you’ll never have to write. Please, **pizza**. Agree to this condition. Why not? After all, it’s just for fun, and you won’t have to go through with it, 'cause I’m so absolutely certain to flip scum. So, what’dya say? I mean, there’s like _no chance_ you’ll have to hold up your end of the bargain, right? Right? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2524 "2011-08-19T15:56:03Z")
Next day is very much harder to unpack for me. > [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > No death tonight! That’s great news! Go Town!!! > > Now, about the accusation **ShadowFacts** has made about **Red Skeezix** , let me just play devils advocate for a moment. There are multiple reasons that there might not have been a death tonight. > > [ol] > [li]Red is scum who was doing the kill tonight, and ShadowFacts saved his own life by roleblocking him.[/li][li]We have a doctor who guessed correctly on the night kill.[/li][li]ShadowFacts is really scum, and the scum decided to not kill anyone in order to play a trick, and make us lynch a townie.[/li][li]Some other reason I haven’t thought of[/li][/ol] > > However, while I fear 3 could be a possibility, I’ve looked through **Red Skeezix** ’s posts, (which there weren’t many), and his vote history (He has only voted for known town, or the safe votes of the day [Like **Septimus**]), and I’m not seeing anything that yells “TOWNIE” at me, and honestly, it looked like Red was trying not to say much at all. > > So, for now, I’m going to: > **Vote Red Skeezix** > > Because number 1 could be true, but even if number 2 is true, there is nothing in Red’s posts that make me doubt he might be scum. > > Well, back to studying for my Law exam! Actually I take that back. I had some vague remembrances of this day that had me in a bit of a WIFOM-y quandary, but this first post’s specific wording does still ping. Devil’s advocate-ing a caught scumbuddy is so freaking dangerous it’s not something I’d really expect a scum to do. Voting him anyway … well all right. What’s getting me is the third point about Shadow being scum. Hirka’s last mention of Shadow prior to this was that he believed his claim, was glad he’s alive. Now he’s afraid Shadow could be scum and have pulled a ploy, with nothing in between? It’s just not emotionally consistent, and I don’t buy it. > [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > Thinking more about **Red Skeezix** ’s claim, if he is who he says he is, and did the actions he said he did, then why did he post this? > (snip, this was a day two comment about bulletproofs) > > You refused to believe **septimus** ’s claim that he was bulletproof, yet you say you targeted him. I would think that when you failed on your killing him, especially after you posted saying > (post 841) > you of all people would have believed his claim. Yet, you voted for him, and kept your vote on him all day. Your actions do not back the claim you made. I am getting more convinced that you are most likely scum, and **ShadowFacts** is telling the truth. This is all rather uncomfortably spot on, though, and unlike the thing with ShadowFacts, _does_ read as a natural evolution from his previous post. > [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > [OOG]I passed the NAPLEX I took Thursday! Woot! Took my law exam this morning (hope I passed!), and now only have the Georgia Wet Board on August 18th in the way of me getting my pharmacist license! Woot!!![/OOG] > > Ok, quickly reviewing, I see Red had some questions for me. > > Ok, looking at the vote history that **Mental Guy** posted, I see you’re actually one of the first votes on **Silver Jan** on day one. I wasn’t here on day one, so didn’t know all that led up to it, exept that I saw you voted for her, and she was 2nd in votes that day. I did see on day 2 (the day she got lynched), you voted in the middle of the pack, which I saw as a safe vote. You voted for **Septimus** on day 3 after his vote switching, which everyone (including me) voted him for at first. So, it was a safe vote. > > When I said “safe vote” I meant that as in someone who had a case already on them, so it would have been safe to vote them if you are scum, and wouldn’t have to necessarily defend your vote. > > Now, the fact that you are trying to OMGUS FoS me, I could take wrongly, but, you did the same thing in the last game we were in, Thundercats, when you disagreed with something I said, and where you were town after all. So, I’m taking that as a null-tell. > > ```auto > > Now, while I haven't heard anything to make me take my vote off Red at this point, that could just because he "might" be town, and the scum is just sitting back laughing at us since we've lynched nothing but town so far, and "if" he is town, they like that we're doing all the work for them. Honestly, I think the day's talk has been too centered on just **Shadowfacts** and **Red Skeezix**. Even if one of them is scum, there is most likely is at least 3 others. Who else seems scummy to people? > > I am looking forward to **Lightfoot** coming back, I'm really interested in what she (?) has to say about last night. > > Oh, and **ShadowFacts** , I would really like you to use the message power on someone, just to prove you have it. While it wouldn't prove you're town, it would help put some of my doubts to rest. And, I don't see what reason you have for not using it so far, as far as I can see, there is no point in saving it right now. And, the fact that you haven't complied with that one reasonable request, does give me pause. > > ``` Right back to scummy. First, Red’s criticism of Hirka was in fact off base. The effect is that Hirka comes off smelling better than Red does, which is nice for him if Hirka is scum. He wouldn’t have to be, though, could be Red just pickign on a townie. All the rest feels scummy to me, including the LF reference. Why would anyone even think she hadn’t been blocked? The whole post after the defense against Red feels like nervous chatter. > [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > Ok, that actually makes sense… I didn’t think of that… So that’s why you’re saving it… I am willing to lock in my vote on **Red Skeezix** since I think he is scum more then I think you are scum… However… > > Mods, If **ShadowFacts** uses his vote power on someone, will it be noticeable to us before end of day? > > I have no problems locking in my vote, but I want to see the response first. Same. > [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > **Pizza** , while I understand and respect your worries. I personally believe that a backup town player is within reason, and more likely then a scum power stealer, so I partially believe **ShadowFacts** is telling the truth. While I believe his claim to be true, I want “actual” proof his claim (or powers) is real. If it is, I’ll count him as town, but, I want proof he’s actually telling the truth and not making something up. > > I will not make a move until the mods make an announcement. I expect if I double vote Red, and he gives me the double vote power, there will be some sort of tell… If there isn’t, or he doesn’t give me the power, I expect everyone to turn on him and lynch him instead. > > Either way, I want to hear if there will be notice that is obvious. Since, if there is no way to know if he used the power before the lynch, then what is the point? I think the thing that’s bugging me is that Hirka’s questioning of Shadow never seems to get at the heart of the issues I had with him; it’s all superficial, serving to keep the pressure on him but always with a way out. > [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > No offense taken, trust me, I understand the worries. I double voted for him before he claimed remember? However, I believe his claim of town backup is more likely then him being a scum who steals power on death (can you show me how common that is?\*) However, I do have doubts about his claim, mainly if he actually has the power he says he does. So far, the only power he claimed to use is blocking Red, while Red agrees that he was blocked, I don’t _know_ that red is town either… So, really, I’m looking for some sort of “proof” that he really has the power he says he does. > > I would be totally agreeable to **ShadowFacts** giving his power to Lightfoot, since I have her marked as town in my book, however, the important thing to me right now is proving that he actually has the powers he claims. That means he has to do something that is vouched by someone he isn’t close to. A message to someone I believe is town, or a mod verified double vote, either would satisfy me. > > \*Since I haven’t played with you before, you should know, this is only my 3rd game of Mafia. I’m still learning. While I’ve done my share of research, and I’m trying to learn, I don’t have the knowledge of many games like y’all do. So if scum stealing town power roles is actually common, I would REALLY like to know. > [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](#): > > Been busy, haven’t had time to catch up, but, I do see that lightfoot confirmed she got a message, so I believe shadowfacts. I only remember voting once, even thought astral says I’m locked in… but only one vote is counted… eiter way to be safe. > vote red skeezix > > On phone please excuse typos. All right. Day Four was my biggest stumbling block to Hirka being scum in my recollection, particularly his having played devil’s advocate for Red. On closer inspection it’s not nearly as big an issue as I’d thought. So while I kind of wish I’d found otherwise (Mental Guy was my suspect, Pizza, Mental Guy!) I see nothing here to change my thought that Hirka should be lynched next. Other than _please_ Mental Guy after that if Hirka is wrong, I have no strong feelings beyond that nor time to get the posts to check things out. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2525 "2011-08-19T16:57:29Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Jumping jiminy, is De’endee located on an Alpine mountaintop? 'Cause it’s like what I say goes right into thin air, the wind blowing my words away. That’s okay, I’m sure you have more. > [@](#): > > I voted for **Hirka** yesterday when I didn’t have to. To no reasonable effect of him getting lynched, obviously. He was \*\*never \*\*in danger by your vote. > [@](#): > > I didn’t double-vote 'cause I’m on record as not liking the double-voting convention, and besides, I thought **Red** was guilty too. Hell, I could’ve double-voted **Red Skeezix** early on to help myself, and probably should have. But despite the burgeoning choiewagon early on, when out of nowhere the tide turned and **Red Skeezix** was bound for the gallows, I realized I could vote my conscience, so I tossed a vote to **Hirka** as a sort of FOS vote. Good; so I take it that means you wouldn’t mind locking onto Hirka, as he’s a top suspect of several people including yourself? Especially if I die. Consider it voting for Hirka for me. > [@](#): > > You guys are acting like there’s some rule that people _must_ double-vote on the same person, that it’s a litmus test, and that anyone who doesn’t completely lock in their votes is _de facto_ wishy-washy, ergo they’re scum. Well, I think that’s B.S. Surprise? > [@](#): > > There’s a reason that the mods didn’t say that both votes had to be on the same suspect. I strongly believe it’s better and safer for town _not_ to lock in votes except perhaps right at the end of the Day. But you’ll still do it, since Hirka is obviously scummy and we \*\*do \*\*of course want to lynch our top suspect instead of **you**. > [@](#): > > Because to lock in early means that we get cases where people are stuck with their choices, no matter _how_ the Day progresses and no matter what new information arises. What new information is going to rise? You and Hirka have both claimed your roles already. Both detectives are dead. No roleblocker on the town side remaining. The only claimed town power role remaining can be blocked. > [@](#): > > Look at what happened yesterday – you double-voted me, and did your best to convince everyone else of **Red Skeezix** ’s innocence. Then **Red Skeezix** came out of hiding to claim remorseful vig, conveniently having waited for you to lock on me and make your strongest case against me. How is this convenient, and for whom? > [@](#): > > Despite your belief that this was a move to throw suspicion away from me, it had the opposite effect for a few players – **Inner** certainly and **gnarlycharlie** possibly (assuming he’s Town, which I don’t). Well, yeah… it was a WIFOM-y move by a scumbag, designed to be confusing. > [@](#): > > So what if even more people had double-voted on me when it was too late to change their minds? Then we’d still have a scum assassin roaming the streets of our fair town. One that most players were dead sure was guilty, but we’d also know your alignment as well. If you’re guilty, that’s a far worse outcome than Red bussing himself. > [@](#): > > Double-voting is _not_ the only way to win, it’s not the only way to prove one’s convictions. I am absolutely certain that to the contrary, it’s damn reckless to lock in a double-vote early in a Day, and I wouldn’t do it even if you told me it was certain to make me a lynch target. Look, a shoe. Already stating for the record you won’t lock in on Hirka T’Bawa, your own suspect. > [@](#): > > I _would_ double-vote at the end of a Day if it became necessary to save an innocent person and tip the vote toward a guilty one, but I wouldn’t do it early, _ever_. If a double-vote won’t make a difference either way, then I will use my second vote to point the finger at someone. Well, we can count on at least one vote on Hirka that you’d promise not to remove at all even if you could then, right? Right? > [@](#): > > The only time I’ve regretted this was during the **Red Skeezix** / **ShadowFacts** standoff. I fucked up. My forgetting that Day ended an hour early meant I couldn’t place my second vote. (It’s possible that it wouldn’t have helped **ShadowFacts** anyway because everyone _else_ had locked on him and even my second vote would probably have tied things up, and ties go to the first person to reach the tie – **Shadow** , alas.) But even so, I wish I wish I wish my stupid brain had remembered the early Day deadline. Choie. Not convincing. Focus on suspects, not defenses. > [@](#): > > Anyway, that’s what I did yesterday. I voted my convictions, which were/are that both **Red** and **Hirka** were scum. Convictions which suddenly appeared after you felt I was being anti-town for voting Hirka and Diver, and you had no record of feeling that way about Hirka up to that point to my knowledge. > [@](#): > > So despite my not double-voting for **Hirka** yesterday, hell yes, I think he’s scum. I told you why last night, and your own arguments (\*and on edit, **Normal** ’s too) push me even further in that direction. Good, so you’ll be on board when we lynch him. > [@](#): > > I also think **gnarlycharlie** is the second and presumably final remaining Lord of Slaughter, with **MentalGuy** as an option and **Stanislaus** as the dark horse option who fooled me by being so awesome. (My trust in **Septimus** is my _bete noire_, dammit. So I’m holding out the possibility that someone I’m convinced is innocent is actually a very very clever Lord of Slaughter.) **Sure, I’ll even vote for gnarlycharlie… if you flip townie.** > [@](#): > > But absent some astoundingly good defense of **Hirka** from a trusted source like **Inner Stickler** (despite his vote on me, I still trust he’s Town), I will probably cast both my votes on **Hirka**. At this point it may be the only thing that saves me. Why so worried about saving yourself? You’re just a bog standard boring old vanilla role what couldn’t hurt a fly, miss choie. > [@](#): > > I won’t continue to defend myself, as **pizza** has said there’s no point to it. But **pizza** , after all the evil scummy motivations you’ve ascribed to me, and after all the ultimatums you’ve made to others, I think it’s time for you to be on the other end of that for a change. And don’t worry, it’s not one that puts Town in any jeopardy. Indeed, it will only require you to do something if/when I’m lynched or murdered. … > [@](#): > > With that teensy, vanishingly small benefit of the doubt you allegedly gave me (though it sure doesn’t read like one to me, considering you’re already plotting my death hours later), I’d like you to make a promise to me: Promise me you’ll vote for Hirka T’Bawa tomorrow and not remove at least one of those votes. 😃 > [@](#): > > If you have a webcam, please, when I die and **Astral Rejection** gives the color that shows the side I’m on, make sure that the cam gets a picture of your reaction. If I’m town, you must post: “I’m very sorry **choie** , I was wrong. And I’m sorry for wasting town’s time for Days by sticking with my _idee fixe_ that you were certainly scum.” With, of course, a link to said picture. If you don’t have a webcam, I’ll just take the statement. Oooh choie, I didn’t know you were so interested in sneaking a peek at me. I’ll take that as flattery! Tell you what. You vote for Hirka T’Bawa and he flips scum, I’ll ask for one last chance for you to pick a scumbag and live. You pick anyone in the game that’s a reasonable choice (Inner Stickler not being one of them) and we’ll lynch that person, giving you a chance to look totally awesome and win the game, alive, as town. Fail your saving throw, and it’s off with your head. You flip townie, and I’ll post a picture of myself with a frowny face with my apologies. Of course I’ll be dead by then, but maybe scummy Astral can make an exception. > [@](#): > > BTW, you must do this even if you’re dead. I want your ghostly spectre to arise in the De’endee town square and post that line. Sure why not. > [@](#): > > Now this may seem a drastic thing to ask of anyone. But what the heck, right? Since you’re so certain I’m scum, and that this result will never happen, you should be able to agree to this. No worries, it’s all good, just some words that you _know_ you’ll never have to write. So, you’ll be voting for Hirka then? Good. I’m not worried then. > [@](#): > > Please, **pizza**. Agree to this condition. Why not? After all, it’s just for fun, and you won’t have to go through with it, 'cause I’m so absolutely certain to flip scum. So, what’dya say? I mean, there’s like _no chance_ you’ll have to hold up your end of the bargain, right? Right? 🙂 Just so long as we lynch you if Hirka flips scumbag, I’ll agree to whatever you want. You want a picture of me in a _thong_, I’ll figure out a way to make it happen. 😛 Hint: I’ll likely paste a picture of a thong superimposed on top of a picture of me looking normal. Really sexy stuff. So worried about arguing your innocence, so reluctant to vote/lock Hirka when it might actually result in his death. Stanislaus or Normal Phase for scum? Really? All righty. I just hope they’re listening to your desires for their death, along with gnarlycharlie and Hirka T’Bawa. ---
**Author:** ![gnarlycharlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@gnarlycharlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarlycharlie)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2526 "2011-08-19T17:04:58Z")
> [@choie](#): > > snipped > > Anyway, that’s what I did yesterday. I voted my convictions, which were/are that both **Red** and **Hirka** were scum. > > So despite my not double-voting for **Hirka** yesterday, hell yes, I think he’s scum. I told you why last night, and your own arguments (\*and on edit, **Normal** ’s too) push me even further in that direction. I also think **gnarlycharlie** is the second and presumably final remaining Lord of Slaughter, with **MentalGuy** as an option and **Stanislaus** as the dark horse option who fooled me by being so awesome. (My trust in **Septimus** is my _bete noire_, dammit. So I’m holding out the possibility that someone I’m convinced is innocent is actually a very very clever Lord of Slaughter.) > > But absent some astoundingly good defense of **Hirka** from a trusted source like **Inner Stickler** (despite his vote on me, I still trust he’s Town), I will probably cast both my votes on **Hirka**. At this point it may be the only thing that saves me. well at least we are in agreement that **Hirka** stands out. if he’s town, **USCDiver** and i, perhaps even **MentalGuy** , will look bad. if he’s scum, i guess we’ll see. personally, town can lynch me after **Hirka** if it will cut through whatever doubt there might be. i win with town alive or dead . ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2527 "2011-08-19T17:05:23Z")
_I really really want to peek under your skirt choie. I gotta see the **choie card**. I’m almost sure there’s evil horns on it._ If you want to avoid that, then you’ve gotta SHOW ME THE TOWNIE! Demonstrate your commitment to the Defenders of De’endee order, vote for Hirka, cross your fingers he flips scum, and then vote for someone else, cross your fingers they flip scum… etc, until we’re done finding scums. That’s how I feel about you. For every scumbag you lynch, you’ll get 1 additional Pizza-approved **benefit of the doubt card.** And I’ll nod my head and not ask to see if you’ve got red or blue colored ones on underneath. Protect your modesty with the skulls of scumbags, and you shall have it, with my sincere apologies and sincere thanks. That’s the best I can promise you right now. You’re all over my scum-o-meter and have been all game long. I’ve given you room to work, but time is running short. Kill the scums or show me the choie card, please. You succeed and prove me wrong, I may yet wear a thong. It’s true because it rhymes. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2528 "2011-08-19T17:25:10Z")
So here’s what I’ve done. I’ve pulled up choie’s posts and am now going through them one-by-one to see if her suspicions of Hirka didn’t just appear out of thin air, only to disappear like her words in the alpine winds. Will report back on my findings. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2529 "2011-08-19T17:47:13Z")
151- Nope. 164- Nope. 187- Nope. 198- Nope. 199- Nope. 247- “I have to admit **askthepizzaguy** ’s voting post took me aback, because it seemed so out-of-left-field and without rationale. Like he was just blindly playing Pin the Tail on the Donkey. Especially since I don’t see anything particularly scummy in **Koldanar** ” In other words, Nope. 291- Nope. 308- Nope. 333- Nope. 364- Nope. 414- Nope. 419- Nope. 445- Nope. 447- Nope. 566- Nope. 568- Nope. 570- Nope. 581- Nope. 608- Nope. 731- Nope. 737- Nope. 863- Nope. 869- Nope. 911- Nope. 929- Nope. 930- Nope. 1177- Nope. 1406- Nope. 1562- Nope. 1571- Nope. 1976- " **Hirka** : Almost forgot him/her. I’ve got no real feel yet. See **pedescribe**. As I recall, people were kinda suspicious of the person **Hirka** subbed in for – **Koldenar** , wasn’t it? – but that was so far back, I doubt guesses then were of any use now." Almost 2000 posts and “no real feel”. Doubt the guesses were of any use now? In other words, **NOPE**. 1985- Nope. 1988- Nope. 2001- “Why not the elusive **pedescribe** or the terse **Weedy** or the slippery **Hirka** or the ever-safe **Mental Guy** or the cool-minded **Stanislaus** or the mysteriously dual-named Renata/ **Normal Phase** or the sorry-I-can’t think-of-an-adjective **USCDiver** or hell, the alternately loquacious and lame partial lurker **choie**?” Hirka is described as slippery, no reasons given, tossed into a pile of other suspects. I wouldn’t call this “real” suspicion. In other words, **Nope**. 2149- Nope. 2193- Nope. 2201- Nope. 2223- Nope. **This is Day Six, by the way.** 2224- Nope. 2225- Nope. 2243- Nope. 2253- “I’m certainly _willing_ to vote for **Hirka** and/or **USCDiver**. But I’m not seeing much of a reason to right now.” In other words, _ **NOPE** _. 2260- “Actually I’d like to look back to **Koldanar** ’s posts and see how s/he was playing **Hirka** ’s role. Not gonna do it now because I don’t know what time it is in pizzaland, but here it’s almost 3AM.” In other words, _ **NOPE** _. 2264- Nope. 2289- "I have _no_ idea how I failed your test on whether I’d vote for **Hirka** or **USCDiver** , two names seemingly pulled from out of your-- uh – let’s say out of thin air. My response was simple. Since I believe **ShadowFacts** and think **Red Skeezix** is guilty, I looked back on their votes and saw that they both voted for him. Nothing else stands out as scummy to me in their play, so I currently said I’m leaning townie. I also said I wanted to take another look at **Koldanar** ’s posts, since s/he played the same role as **Hirka** before pulling out of the game. But apparently this was a bad answer. I guess I was supposed to say “AW _HELL_ YEAH, KILL THE BASTARDS!” out of nowhere, is that it? Because you have a “hunch” that you weren’t even gracing me with, yet" _ **In other words, NOOOOOOOOOPE.** _ 2290- Nope. 2319- " I think the remaining scum are **Red** , **Hirka** , **Normal** (I think she’s playing deep) and either **pedescribe** or **Stanislaus**. The latter is only in there 'cause I like his posts so much. I’m at the point where I’m gonna assume my instincts are totally wrong, so probably **Stanislaus** is like the uber-evil type" You think the remaining scum are Red (bonus) Hirka (Why? WHY? WHY? WHY? WHY? WHY?) Normal, pede, and Stanislaus. So, you toss Hirka’s name in there on no reasoning after never doing a re-read, with 4 other names. Sounds like real strong suspicion to me. In other words: _ **Nope!** _ 2379- Now, at this point, you finally start mentioning Hirka’s name more. This is after I voted him and you said how anti-town it was and had no reasons to vote for him and that you haven’t re-read him yet and that you doubt guesses from that early mattered now. “For me, the person who stands out the most is **Hirka** , who seems to have been gunning for **ShadowFacts** for weeks.” Oh, also, there was a wagon forming on you. Coincidence? Does this sound like real suspicion, choie? _ **Nope.** _ 2389- “Right now the person who seems scummier to me is **Hirka** , and his double-voting of me doesn’t help (admittedly that’s kind of OMGUSish but when you know you’re innocent, you’re bound to feel suspicious of someone who’s rooting for your death). But there’s really no point in voting for **Hirka** considering the vote count right now. I’d be throwing my votes away.” Good, so you’ll vote for Hirka tomorrow, when the vote count is reset to zero then, then? Then? How about then? What about then? Indeed, then. 2408- "Fine. I’ll vote the way I genuinely feel then. **vote Red Skeezix** **vote Hirka T’Bawa** I don’t care if it makes no difference. I think both of these are scummy." Okay. Then prove it choie. Because, as you’re so fond of saying, that’s bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2530 "2011-08-19T17:53:16Z")
The air in the alpine mountains is very thin, and this is where choie’s suspicions of Hirka T’Bawa came from. Out of the thin mountain air. Also, during the re-read, choie said there was nothing suspicious about septimus, later said there was nothing suspicious about Red Skeezix, and has repeatedly said there’s nothing about Hirka that strikes her as scummy. Except of course, after I did my thing yesterday and voted for Hirka and started questioning people about this, and still you need to do a re-read. **Only when the choie wagon starts taking off does choie give any reasoning whatsoever as to why Hirka B’Guilty.** Interesting to me. Plus the defenses of septimus and Red Skeezix during the game. Choie, you didn’t find Hirka T’Bawa scummy until your neck was on the line. Bull poopie, that’s all this is. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2531 "2011-08-19T18:31:30Z")
I have only 2 hours left until work and my very likely death. Anyone have anything else they want to say to me? Hugs and kisses. Love you lots. Next time: strip poker, my place. All bets are “off” if you get my pun. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2532 "2011-08-19T19:16:25Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > That’s okay, I’m sure you have more. Wait, is that a “you’re too wordy” dig? From _thou_? 😃 > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > To no reasonable effect of him getting lynched, obviously. He was \*\*never \*\*in danger by your vote. That doesn’t matter to me. It’s what I believed. I’ll put it this way: **Red** was in no danger of _not_ being lynched by the time I placed my votes (votes that were waiting for you, by the way; you snooze, you lose!). So if I’m scum, why not just jump on the bandwagon and double-vote **Red**? Because a) I’m not scum, and b) I wanted to vote for **Hirka** in some fashion because by then I felt his behavior was scummy as hell, and I thought a finger-point was in order. Since the **Red** lynch didn’t require my second vote, I let my conscience ring out, like Joan of Arc on the flames. > [@pizza](#): > > Good; so I take it that means you wouldn’t mind locking onto Hirka, as he’s a top suspect of several people including yourself? Jeebus, how many times do I have to say the same thing? Why do you ask the same questions over and over when I _have said, twice now_, that I would vote **Hirka**? What are you trying to gain by constant repetition except browbeating me? This isn’t useful, **pizza**. I will _not_ agree, sight unseen, to double-vote **Hirka** , especially not first thing in the Morning. That would be crazy irresponsible and I don’t care if it means you lynch me instead, I will _not_ go against my conviction that double-voting early is absolutely irresponsible behavior. > [@](#): > > But you’ll still do it, since Hirka is obviously scummy and we \*\*do \*\*of course want to lynch our top suspect instead of **you**. Yes, I want to lynch our top guilty suspect instead of _anyone_ else. I will double-vote **Hirka** if the afternoon arrives and neither he or **Inner Stickler** or someone whom I mostly trust like **Normal** or **Stanislaus** (God, I hope I’m right about him) has posted some credible alternate reason why **Hirka** is innocent and/or someone else is scummier than him. (Do we know **Hirka** is male, btw? Sorry if I guessed wrong, I hate the default idea that everyone’s male on the interwebs.) > [@](#): > > What new information is going to rise? You and Hirka have both claimed your roles already. Both detectives are dead. No roleblocker on the town side remaining. The only claimed town power role remaining can be blocked. What new info is going to rise? Hell if I know. I didn’t even know there was such a thing as a Remorseful Vig when **Red** trotted it out and several people confirmed that it existed and started to believe him. For all I know **Hirka** (or maybe someone who’s been hiding – either literally like **pedescribe** or figuratively in plain sight, like **Normal** or **MentalGuy** or one of the less active folks) will reveal some other heretofore unknown-to-me role that makes everything make sense and ties a neat little bow on either **Hirka** ’s innocence or someone else’s guilt. For all I know there’s a Double-Secret-Remorseful-Paranoid-Cop-Who-Moonlights-As-Psychiatrist that I’ve never heard of before, and this person comes out and admits that s/he’s scanned **Hirka** ] and found him utterly clean and for reasons A B and C s/he found out **person X** is clearly scum, and every single thing this Double-Secret-Remorseful-Paranoid-Cop-Who-Moonlights-As-Psychiatrist says adds up. Meanwhile, we’ve all locked on **Hirka** and can’t do a blessed thing about it. Good going, us! Maybe this is impossible. I just don’t know. So I will repeat this till I’m blue in the face and I do NOT care if I’m lynched Tomorrow because of it: Double-voting automatically at the start of the Day is really, really **really** , **really** irresponsible behavior for a townie. So no, even if it costs me my life, I won’t double-vote automatically. Not even for you, dear **pizza** with the unwholesome obsession with looking at my nether regions. 🙂 > [@](#): > > How is this convenient, and for whom? For **Red** , obviously. (And his fellow scumbuddies.) Like it or not, you were the person with the most town cred, and you’d double-voted me and bewailed our folly in voting for **Red**. **Red** waited until you’d made such a strong stand against me/in his favor in order to play his boldest, most daring card, the last one he had: Remorseful Vig. Your own words had been convincing enough, but his truly put a virtual hush in the virtual town square. A few people started doubting. (Even me.) They had your apparently persuasive arguments anti-me and in favor of **Red** , _and_ a now-plausible role for **Red** that seemed to add up. It was a damn smart move from **Red**. And the unmovable, double-votes placed on me early in the Day nearly helped him. _Nearly_. Later in the day things turned around, thank goodness. But there were some scary hours when it seemed (at least to me) that I was going to be the sacrifice and more importantly, that **Red** had pulled off an amazing _coup de theatre_ that would have fucked town like a copper-piece harlot. > [@](#): > > Look, a shoe. Already stating for the record you won’t lock in on Hirka T’Bawa, your own suspect. You’re not listening to me, dammit. I said I wouldn’t pledge to lock in on **Hirka** , certainly not _early in the Day_. I did NOT say I wouldn’t lock in on him (or her, sorry) at all. I don’t think it’s in the town’s best interest to pledge to double-vote someone during the freakin’ Night. That’s… that’s crazily reckless disregard for the unexpected, which is something that does sometimes happen in this game (c.f. **Red Skeezix** ’s near-masterstroke). Seriously, am I the only one who thinks so? I’d really like an answer to this question from **Normal** , **Stanislaus** , anyone other than **pizza**. God, I wish the innocent dead could speak, because I cannot be_lieve_ that I’m the only one who thinks locking in automatically at the start of the Day – worse, pledging to do so during the Night before – is just about the stupidest thing a townie could do. > [@](#): > > Well, we can count on at least one vote on Hirka that you’d promise not to remove at all even if you could then, right? Holy mother of God. Y’know, I don’t believe you’re really a pizza guy IRL, I think you’re a lawyer. Only a lawyer is so implacable in trying to lead a witness. 🙂 Here’s a hypothetical, counselor. How would you feel if I locked one vote on **Hirka** , and something utterly unexpected happened. (What unexpected thing could happen? I have no freakin’ idea. That’s what makes it, y’know, unepxected. Especially to me. I am – sorry, I have to say this – inexperienced and I am quite unable to imagine all the possible permutations of role claims or bizarre rule-twists that could arise. So let’s say I vowed that one locked vote and this Unexpected Thing occurs, a revelation of some kind, that completely proves **Hirka** ’s innocence or, more importantly, someone else’s guilt. And let’s say it’s a tie between all those double-voted and locked votes on **Hirka** and **person X** , the one who now seems even scummier than **Hirka**. But I can neither save **Hirka** nor convict **person X** , because like an utter tool I pledged to lock my vote. So all I can do is vote once for **person X**. **Hirka** is lynched and flips town. No big deal, you say now. So we lynch **person X** the next day, **Hirka** was expendable, all vanilla townies are. Fine, I grant you that. But I guarantee the next Day, instead of going for **person X** , you’d probably _still_ go after me. You’ll craft some new scenario that I’m an evil genius because in your mind I yam what I yam and that’s all that I yam. You’ve been doing this for several Days now – picking someone and intractably declaring their guilt – and with respect, so far, barring **Septimus** , you’ve been wrong each time. Because you’re incredibly persuasive your words bullyrag others into voting for me. Okay, I’m dead. And I flip townie because I will. What does this scenario create? I’m not good at math, but to quote Edmund Blackadder, I think it leaves town up a certain creek without a certain implement. Doesn’t that put us at Lynch or Lose? Haven’t we now wasted _two_ votes? So. All this is to say that YES I believe **Hirka** is guilty and YES I will certainly vote for him early toMorrow. (Well, I guess, unless he’s dead, that is. Ugh, I wish I hadn’t said that, now if that happens I’m gonna get dinged for PIS for sure!) But will I pledge to lock my votes before the Day has even begun? Hells to the naw. I would never be able to look myself in the mirror if I did something so ridiculously antithetical to good judgment. > [@](#): > > Convictions which suddenly appeared after you felt I was being anti-town for voting Hirka and Diver, and you had no record of feeling that way about Hirka up to that point to my knowledge. Great, now I’m getting dinged for re-reading your arguments and starting to believe them. And solidifying those beliefs by creating that Final Vote Pattern chart that no one else gives a rat’s ass about, but which helped dumb ol’ _me_ see just how bent on **ShadowFacts** ’s destruction he was. Then those convictions turned virtually cementlike when **Hirka** made that last minute switch to **Red** not because he was guilty, mind you, because he allegedly didn’t believe **Red** was guilty. But he voted supposedly innocent **Red** “just to remove a distraction,” a move that seemed scummy as all get-out to me. In any event, you’re misreading what I said at the time when you suddenly went after **Diver** , **Hirka** and me. Or to be fairer, I probably just didn’t say it very well. My disagreement with you had nothing to do with my being 100% convinced that **Hirka** was town, because I wasn’t. I didn’t know, I hadn’t at the time looked at him carefully enough. On the surface I didn’t see anything scummy, or at least, not scummier than my main suspect. I was focused on **Red** at that point. I thought you were being anti-town for creating pie-in-the-sky scenarios in favor of **Red Skeezix** and doing everything in your power to avoid his lynching. Now I understand that you were trying to create scenarios just in case **Red** flipped town. But that’s not how you were coming across, **pizza**. You came across as positively vehement that **Red** was innocent. And to me, your attempts to browbeat the rest of the Town into agreeing with you struck me as a really really bad move. But all that said, when you first asked me whether I’d be willing to vote for **Hirka** or **Diver** , I said sure, I’d consider it. I was _never_ hell-bent against voting for **Hirka**. I _was_ hell-bent against _not_ voting against **Red**. (Oy, what a convoluted paragraph! Heh.) > [@](#): > > Good, so you’ll be on board when we lynch him. Barring the unforeseen (which by its nature can’t be foreseen, duh), yes. I’ve said so umpteen times now. Yes. **Yes.**** YES!** Ask me again and I swear, dude, I’m’a coming down to Florida with the folks who won [this contest](http://www.annualbrooklynpizzaeatingcontest.com). 😃 [quote[Why so worried about saving yourself? You’re just a bog standard boring old vanilla role what couldn’t hurt a fly, miss choie.[/quote] Is it really that unnatural to self-preserve? Seriously? Besides, I’m not just worried in saving myself as _myself_, but because we would _not_ be lynching scum. Our Days are getting numbered and I am damn worried about wasting more time on half-truths and gorilla dust (TM Bill McNeal). > [@](#): > > Promise me you’ll vote for Hirka T’Bawa tomorrow and not remove at least one of those votes. 😃 I’ll do the first part, not the second. I told you above why. But I fully intend to vote for **Hirka** and I am pretty likely to lock on him/her, barring the unforeseen. > [@](#): > > Tell you what. You vote for Hirka T’Bawa and he flips scum, I’ll ask for one last chance for you to pick a scumbag and live. You pick anyone in the game that’s a reasonable choice (Inner Stickler not being one of them) and we’ll lynch that person, giving you a chance to look totally awesome and win the game, alive, as town. That’s hella unfair. So in this scenario, I’ve picked the right townies and right scums four Days running (Voting **Red Skeezix** and **Hirka** and defending **ShadowFacts, Suburban Plankton** and **Inner Stickler** while you held your hands over your ears), but that’s still not enough for you, because _now_ you say that only scum could have chosen so wisely, so knowledgably. So now you’re asking me to pick yet _another_ scum, perfectly. I’m sorry, but that is utterly unreasonable and you know it. > [@](#): > > So, you’ll be voting for Hirka then? Good. I’m not worried then. OMG > [@](#): > > Just so long as we lynch you if Hirka flips scumbag, I’ll agree to whatever you want. Wait, what? So now if **Hirka** flips scum, you’re still going to lynch me?? I thought you were going to lynch me if **Hirka** flips town. What the frack? Anyway, whatever. All I’m saying is that I want you to agree to make that statement if you lynch me or I’m murdered and I flip town. Even if you die before the reveal. (Ghosts are allowed one final goodbye post, if I’m not mistaken, so you should be able to haunt our town square perfectly successfully. It won’t be considered undue influence because by then my card will have been revealed – this is after my death, remember.) I’m surprised you’re not willing to say a simple yes to this. You’re certain I’m evil. What do you have to lose? > [@](#): > > So worried about arguing your innocence, so reluctant to vote/lock Hirka when it might actually result in his death. Stanislaus or Normal Phase for scum? Really? All righty. I just hope they’re listening to your desires for their death, along with gnarlycharlie and Hirka T’Bawa. Okay, first of all, I never said I desired their ( **Stanislaus** ’s or **Normal** ’s) deaths. (Frankly I find that phrasing creepy, even though it’s a game. I’m superstitious like that!) I added **Stanislaus** as a dark horse. Do you know what dark horse means, **pizza**? It means someone you don’t really expect to win (or in this case, to turn out to be scum) but could possibly do so and shock the hell outta everyone. I mentioned him, albeit in last place, because my instinctive liking for someone has burned me before with **Septimus** , and I learn from my mistakes. Same with **Normal**. But frankly, and I hope you don’t take this the wrong way, you being dead certain about various people’s guilt or innocence is _not_ something that’s convincing to me. Not in and of itself. Not after your stances on **Inner** and **Suburban** and **Red Skeezix** and, yes, **choie**. As far as the “so reluctant to lock on **Hirka** ” comment goes… Jesus. Please, someone, anyone, tell me that I’m not losing my marbles. Is it _really_ so hard to fathom not wanting to vow to lock on someone **before the bloody Night is even over**?!!! > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > _I really really want to peek under your skirt choie. I gotta see the **choie card**. I’m almost sure there’s evil horns on it._ Aha! Anti-semitism! \ 😃 > [@](#): > > Demonstrate your commitment to the Defenders of De’endee order, vote for Hirka, cross your fingers he flips scum, and then vote for someone else, cross your fingers they flip scum… etc, until we’re done finding scums. That’s how I feel about you. For every scumbag you lynch, you’ll get 1 additional Pizza-approved **benefit of the doubt card.** So I already have one point for **Red** , right? (Though I think I deserve more for defending **Inner, Shadow** and **Suburban** , but whatevs.) And then **Hirka** flipping scum will grant me two, right? The trouble is that I don’t trust you not to say “OMG she’s guessed **Hirka** right, that’s PIS right there, she’s gotta be scum, LYNCH HER SCUMMY ALBEIT SHAPELY ASS!” No. I think you’re being completely unreasonable in expecting me to make a _sixth_ correct call in a row. Whereas _my_ request is perfectly reasonable. Especially since you’re so sure that I’m scum. So c’mon, it’s Nighttime and we can make fun sidebets. Promise me that if I die and am proven town, you’ll post what I said to (to heck with the picture, I can forgo the pleasure of seeing your beet-red-in-embarrassment face), or be forever branded a dirty rotten coward in this here town. If I’m town, you will owe me that much. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2533 "2011-08-19T19:17:55Z")
Next time I want someone dead, I’m so saying “Lynch their scummy albeit shapely ass” ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2534 "2011-08-19T19:42:25Z")
Just read **pizza** ’s latest “nope” fest. Not surprisingly, everything I say, he translates to fit his preconfigured script. I say I’m leaning to **Hirka** ’s guilt, he translates that as my saying **Hirka** is innocent. Apparently in **pizza** speak, if you aren’t all 100% DEAD CERTAIN OMG THERE’S NO WAY I’M WRONG, your opinions don’t matter. It’s hopeless. I’m done trying to get you to see how your singlemindedness is harming town. If you’re murdered (and I don’t see why you will, you’re helping scum more than you’re helping town at this point\*) and you read the spoiler board, you’ll see. God, I can’t wait for that moment. I can only imagine that’s how **ShadowFacts** and **Suburban** felt. Who knows what staggering wrongheadedness lurks in the hearts of pizzas? The **Shadow** knows. 🙂 - Besides, isn’t it bizarre to assume you’re more dangerous to scum than **Inner Stickler**? They’ll go after him, surely. Hopefully he’s self-protected. Whereas, you? How can you possibly say that you, a vanilla (presumably\*\*), are somehow dangerous to the Lords of Slaughter when for the past few Days all you’ve done – admittedly with the best intentions – is advocate for scum ( **Red** ) and slander townies ( **Shadow** , **Suburban** , **Inner** – and though you don’t know it, me)? If I were scum, I’d leave you in place. You’re worth more to them alive. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2535 "2011-08-19T19:46:08Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Next time I want someone dead, I’m so saying “Lynch their scummy albeit shapely ass” It does have a certain ring to it, doesn’t it? (The phrase, not the ass.) **Inner** , what do you think about my question, which I put to all the folks like you? Do you believe it’s a smart move to ask people to vow to lock in their votes so early – during the Night, even? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2536 "2011-08-19T20:19:49Z")
It would be interesting certainly. I can see a certain appeal for a confirmed town to demand those he feels are scummy to lock in at the beginning of the day on someone. If that person has correctly deduced the pool of scum then it would remove a lot of their bite but if they’ve missed a scum player than it’s less effective. I wouldn’t do it because when you start putting conditions on voting then scum can slide through on “I had to vote this way” rules. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2537 "2011-08-19T20:51:29Z")
I’ll see your scummy yet shapely ass on the flip-side. 😉 You gave ZERO REASONS why you “thought” Hirka was scummy until you had a wagon on you. None. And you argued that you didn’t think he was scummy at all until midway through Day Six, and that was after scolding me for being so anti-town as to suggest we should lynch Hirka or Diver. Must see the choie card. It is filled with so much awesomeness no matter what it reads… ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2538 "2011-08-19T20:55:28Z")
And no, you don’t get ANY pro-town credit for saying septimus didn’t look guilty until after he died, you don’t get ANY pro-town credit for saying that Red Skeezix didn’t look guilty until everyone and their mother wanted him dead, you don’t get ANY pro-town credit for saying there’s nothing scummy about Hirka until you’re ass-deep in votes, and you don’t get ANY pro-town credit for predicting someone would flip townie upon death. A scum will know that! ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2539 "2011-08-19T21:46:17Z")
Dawn approaches! 15 minutes 'til daybreak, I reckon. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2540 "2011-08-19T21:56:29Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > And no, you don’t get ANY pro-town credit for saying septimus didn’t look guilty until after he died, I never said I should! Heck, that gives me negative pro-town credit. Um, also called anti-town credit. > [@](#): > > you don’t get ANY pro-town credit for saying that Red Skeezix didn’t look guilty until everyone and their mother wanted him dead, That ain’t how I remember it. I’m pretty sure I believed **ShadowFacts** ’s take on **Red Skeezix** earlier than most people here. > [@](#): > > you don’t get ANY pro-town credit for saying there’s nothing scummy about Hirka until you’re ass-deep in votes, This is utter twaddle. I wasn’t ass-deep in votes when I said _I wasn’t sure_ about **Hirka**. You really have a problem with gray thinking, don’t you? Not being sure does not equal “nothing scummy” or “innocent.” It just means not sure. I hadn’t examined him yet. You really aren’t taking into account the fact that I am NOT accustomed to poring over every single post and judging every line and remembering everything everyone ever said in this game. I didn’t look at **Hirka** closely until a couple of Days ago, when you made what I felt was a good case on him. I find it absolutely hilarious that you’re upset with me because I was convinced to take another look at **Hirka** by your argument. That’s when I made my chart, and that’s when I spotted the **ShadowFacts** trend in his voting. In fact you don’t seem to take into account that my default position – which I know is antithetical to how this game should be played – is that _everyone is innocent_ until I get damn good vibes otherwise. So yes, you can find evidence in almost all my posts that I don’t find anything hugely scummy in almost anyone, because until that little switch that says “something’s hinky” turns on in my brain, I assume they’re town, not scum. What can I say, I’m an arch-liberal who is finding it really, really hard to turn off that ol’ justice system “beyond a reasonable doubt” switch in order to play a game where everyone is presumed guilty first. I know it’s not how you play Mafia. I know it’s probably not how most people play. But it’s a mindset I just cannot shake, not yet. > [@](#): > > and you don’t get ANY pro-town credit for predicting someone would flip townie upon death. A scum will know that! Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that. Which is why I predicted **KellyCriterion** and **Silver Jan** flipping townie, right? Oh wait. I didn’t. Fuck me, I even voted for **LightFoot**. If I were a brilliant mastermind scum who knows every town person by heart, why on _earth_ did I vote for her, when all it did was make me look like a tool? Oh God, there’s no point, there’s no point, there’s no point. Why am I responding? You will not believe me until you’ve wasted everyone’s time and vote and killed me, or you’re dead and you get access to the spoiler board. So what’s the point? SHUT. UP. CHOIE. So you win. No more defense from me. But I still want that promise, dude. You’re dead certain I’m scum. So promise me that when I die, if I flip townie, you’ll apologize in the De’endee town square and admit that you wasted your energy on me. Since I’m so obviously scum, you won’t have to do it, right? Why so scared to make the vow? Don’t have the courage of your convictions after all? You some kinda yellowbellied chicken? We don’t kinder to those 'round these here parts… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirka_T_Bawa)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2541 "2011-08-19T22:00:19Z")
I just got caught up, let me just say Wow… All this talk about me, and let me just say, there is a pretty good case against me. If I didn’t know 100% that I was town, I would be almost convinced about it. I have been distracted most of this game with RL, and all these tests I’ve been doing, and looking back, I do look wishy-washy… Ok, let me answer some of the questions I saw. First, day four, when I locked in my vote on Red, I never had a chance to look back at what was going on. I wanted to get my vote in quickly since I was at work. I saw on that one page that Lightfoot got a message, so I just locked my vote on Red, instead of reviewing the case on Septimus. No excuse, I know, but it is what happened. Second, sorry I haven’t been around. I had my Georgia practical Thursday, now, I’m on vacation. Disney World!!! 😃 So, I will probably be much more quiet then normal. We just got to a hotel, so have internet for a few before the wife and I go out to dinner. I’ll be back after dawn. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=126) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=128)