# De'endee Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 6, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052 "2011-07-06T16:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 133
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2643 "2011-08-26T20:55:44Z")
Meta stuff: By the way, am I the only one whose curiosity and paranoia are driven _totally bonkers_ whenever that “-1 -10” Forbidden Thread bumps up after one of your own posts? I just _know_ they’re all mocking me for being a total nimrod. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2644 "2011-08-26T21:01:04Z")
Nobody is calling you a nimrod in the forbidden thread, Choie. Normal and Pizza both asked for spoilers. That’s all. We’re calling you a nimrod in the spoiled thread. Oops, should not have said that last part. (just teasing!) ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2645 "2011-08-26T21:07:17Z")
Aw, you’re a real mensch, **Astral** ]. You didn’t have to reassure me, I was just joking (well, mostly). I’m glad **pizza** is finally giving in to the siren call of the spoiler board. Sure wish I had that promise he should’ve given me to send me a pic of his face. Hey **pizza** , this is just for you: (/ **choie** performs time-honored thumb-on-nose ritual.) ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2646 "2011-08-27T01:48:37Z")
OK, choie, I like this post much better than the Inner Stickler case, which sort of looked like you trying to appear harmless. I will try to explain my votes: I don’t understand why people are picking on the texcat vote. I voted for her during the day, because she had done nothing up to that point besides smudge people (not just septimus but choie and special ed as well), even though she was obviously around. I voted for her 10 minutes before the end of day, when septimus was like 5 votes off the lynch lead, and shadowfacts was 1 or 2. There is no way septimus was going to be lynched at that point. If I was scum, I should have voted for Shadowfacts because Normal and ATPG were telling everyone to pile votes on him in order to make him use his vote power. I didn’t like that, and I wanted to prevent it. Red Skeezix vs. Septimus, in retrospect, it didn’t matter. At the time, though, I went back and looked at Septimus’s posts and found an inconsistency that I thought confirmed Red’s vig claim. Right after he claimed, Septimus is kind of babbling about being just a vanilla townie now, though he doesn’t say in so many words that he was shot at during the night. Then people start saying that Bulletproof is a useful ability, and Septimus stops talking about being vanilla, and gets extremely coy about whether or not he has been targeted. I figured that he had been shot at, but didn’t want to say so, because it would confirm Red’s story as vig. My ShadowFacts vote was not very thorough, because I got hit really bad with the flu and trying to follow the thread made my head spin. He was sort of saying he didn’t think ATPG was scum, but he targeted him anyway, because he did think he was scum, and Normal was pointing out how unlikely that was. That was as far as I got in the thread before I got sick, and I still thought Red Skeezix was, or could be, vig, so I voted Shadow. When Shadow flipped town, I figured Red must be lying. When he claimed Remorseful, that just nailed it for me. It didn’t make any sense at all. Why hadn’t he said so before? It was extremely relevant. He said he didn’t want to reveal his weakness, but how would it have hurt? Maybe he thought scum would trick him into targeting a townie, but he didn’t actually seem too worried about that, because he targeted pedescribe, who could have been anything. I didn’t believe it at all, and I was a bit surprised anyone did. Anyway, those are my votes, so if people want to vote me for them, there’s not a lot more I can say. I have been squeezing this game in between family commitments and won’t have much time until tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2647 "2011-08-27T04:42:00Z")
After reviewing choie’s voting history and posts, I am less suspicious of her than I am of Weedy. Her voting record is nothing great, but it does not look like scum trying to manipulate things. I realize choie is a professional writer, but I still feel that her posts have too much of an authentic feel to them for her to be scum. choie, if you are scum, then congratulations. You did an excellent job of writing some of your posts to give the feel that you are a flustered ignorant (in the game sense, not personally) townsperson. ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2648 "2011-08-27T04:51:07Z")
> [@Weedy](#): > > I don’t understand why people are picking on the texcat vote. I voted for her during the day, because she had done nothing up to that point besides smudge people (not just septimus but choie and special ed as well), even though she was obviously around. I voted for her 10 minutes before the end of day, when septimus was like 5 votes off the lynch lead, and shadowfacts was 1 or 2. There is no way septimus was going to be lynched at that point. If I was scum, I should have voted for Shadowfacts because Normal and ATPG were telling everyone to pile votes on him in order to make him use his vote power. I didn’t like that, and I wanted to prevent it. You are right that at the time of your second vote on TexCat, septimus was behind by more than I thought. I forgot to record Inner’s unvote in the vote chart. However, when you first voted for TexCat, it gave her 4 votes to septimus’ five. Shadow only had two votes at the time. So you definitely helped bring TexCat along as an alternate lynch to septimus. ---
**Author:** ![gnarlycharlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@gnarlycharlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarlycharlie)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2649 "2011-08-27T07:24:48Z")
> [@choie](#): > > First, to get fluff out of the way: > > Yes indeed, _Ten Little Indians_ is her adaptation of _And Then There Were None_. Which really does feel like the game we’re playing now! 🙂 > > Hmm, I thought I read that one and I don’t remember the lack of power roles, or that it was a disaster! You’re probably being too hard on yourself. Is that the one that was supposed to be very Newbie-friendly? I do remember that some newbies who played it still felt at a loss since there was so much meta-discussion about previous games. > > Okay, now to serious stuff. My thoughts on the survivors: > > # ============================================ **Stanislaus** - town, 90% likely trustworthy. > > That missing 10% is that truculent/paranoid side of myself I mentioned earlier. I think he’s gotten an easy ride here, maybe too easy, with almost no one doing any real suspecting of him. Then again? There doesn’t appear to be any reason _to_ suspect him. So as others including myself have said, if he’s really scum? He’s earned his win. > > # ============================================ **USCDiver** - town, 70% likely trustworthy. > > I’ll quote **MentalGuy** here: > > I have to agree with this. I’m finding **USCDiver** ’s overall votes to be very solid and reasonable. > > So why only 70% trustworthy to me? He gets a much lower townie score than **Stanislaus** because he _has_ been a little less solid, and there’s that inkling that I find it hard to believe that _no_ scummy Lords voted for **Red Skeezix** the day **ShadowFacts** got the noose. So since I’m town, and **Stanislaus** is very likely town, the only remaining survivor on the list for Day Five’s **Red** vote is **USCDiver**. Process of elimination says the scum would be him… assuming this theory is correct OR the **Stanislaus** dark horse theory isn’t correct. > > More on the negative side? Oddly enough, he drops down a few more trustworthy percentage points for this line in his latest post: > > I know I should be happy about this, and yet… I don’t understand the mindset. To someone who genuinely doesn’t know whether I’m scum or town, **Hirka** ’s flipping town despite my vote for him, in fact was the only nimrod to double-vote him yesterDay, should make me seen _more_ scummy, shouldn’t it? > > So despite my initial reaction to reading this line from **Diver** (which was “yay! My true good intentions are understood despite my stupidly bad judgment!”), I quickly began to feel a certain doubt. Is **Diver** trying to get on my good side? Y’know, this “snuggling” thing that we’ve been talking about? > > \*I guess my question for **Diver** is: why the heck does **Hirka** flipping town make me seem **less** guilty? \* > > All this said, I’m still putting **Diver** on the Town side of the scale. > > # ============================================ **Inner Stickler** - unsure. Probably town. 55% trustworthy > > Yeah. Every one of those 55 percentage points is due to the fact that just about everyone else (known townies) believed him, and the fact that there’s been no counterclaim, and the fact that we almost certainly must have a doctor of some kind in this game. > > Where he loses 45 percentage points for me is because of everything I elaborated on above. His apparent trust in **Red Skeezix** , Day after Day. The last-minute **TexCat** vote saving **septimus**. And his weird disappearance after dawn of Day Seven, not voting or even discussing, much less appearing after Night Eight to explain his side of what happened once **Normal** was killed. Someone with such a major power role should be _far_ more invested in this game, I would think. And now I hear he’s dead in the other game and he _still_ hasn’t turned up here? WTFBBQ? > > One more thing: I just noticed another something interesting in one of the quotes I mentioned above, from very early in the game, bolding mine: > > So he mentions that in the very last game he played, he was a paranoid doctor. It kinda seems surprising and coincidental that our mods – one of whom ( **Astral** ) obviously played in that same game with **Inner** – would have given him the same exact role, doesn’t it? (On the other hand, maybe they did it for precisely this meta reason: it’s a great double-fakeout. People wouldn’t be expecting him to repeat a role. Also, would a scummy **Inner** have mentioned a paranoid doc if he were going to later fake the role? > > Oy back and forth, back and forth.. I know it’s tasteless and odorless but I’m beginning to smell Iocane Powder here.) > > Anyway, despite all this, I feel morally obligated to assume that he’s Town. His faking the role would be one hell of a gambit to pull, even greater than **septimus** ’s bussing and **Red Skeezix** ’s Remorseful Vig gambit. And we appear to have no alternative doc. So… yeah. I’m not voting against him at this point, no way. > > # ============================================ **MentalGuy** - 49% trustworthy. Slightly maybe scum. > > This is a toughie for me. Earlier I defended his voting record because he seemed to agree with me on a lot of things, but **Hirka** flipping town has had an impact on that, which I know is super-hypocritical since I voted **Hirka** last time around too. > > And yet other than that he just doesn’t give me a huge ping, at least, not more than some of the others lower on the list. I’m just… I’m sorry, **Normal** , if you’re reading this. I am just not convinced. He _has_ delayed giving his thoughts on people till now (though he leaves me in suspense of what he thinks about me, funnily enough) and I feel like I owe **Normal** the loyalty of voting for him at least once in her memory. If I vote **MentalGuy** now, it’s a very tentative one and I’m not sure it’ll stick throughout the Day. > > I’ll say this, if he’s scum, he’s been very slippery and damn good at it. > > # ============================================ **gnarlycharlie** - 45% trustworthy. Leaning scum but not convinced of it. > > It’s possible that some of my doubt on him has been due to his playing in several games at once, as he’s mentioned above. It doesn’t appear like his head’s been in De’endee, and maybe that’s why he hasn’t done much explaining of his votes or participating as much as he should if he wants to save town as much as the rest of us do. Again, I know this is hypocritical of me since as **Weedy** mentions, I was mighty quiet earlier in the game too. But I know my motives; I don’t know **gnarlycharlie** ’s. He’s also the one who allegedly bought **Red** ’s shtick “hook, line and sinker,” his hand firmly clasped in **Red** ’s for several days, voting **ShadowFacts** for two Days straight and then to the point of voting **Diver** and me, then locking on me when it looked for a while that I was gonna be the sacrificial lamb instead of **Red**. Now that’s a lot of faith in **Red**. > > In his favor is that yes, for some reason, in looking over his posts the other day, I started finding some genuineness in his words. I’m also doing my best to _not_ rate him lower just because he’s been voting me for a few days running, so in order to avoid that, I’m giving him a few points back. > > # ============================================ **Weedy** - 35% trustworthy. Leaning more strongly scum but certainly wiling to be convinced otherwise. > > I hate this part of the game. I don’t like not trusting people, especially someone as nice as **Weedy** appears to be. But I do find myself agreeing with **MentalGuy** ’s reading of her posting record. That nefarious **TexCat** double-vote. The lateish **septimus** vote when it appeared the attempt to bus **Red Skeezix** had failed. The **ShadowFacts** vote to save **Red Skeezix** (this despite the fact that the Day before she’d at least initially voted **Red**. > > Please bear in mind that what I’m _not_ counting against her is her pushing at me the last few posts, because I think it’s thoroughly understandable to do so. Unlike **gnarlycharlie** and **Diver** I’m not getting a sucking-up vibe from **Weedy**. I respect that because my play _has_ been lousy and I deserve the speculation at this point in the game. > > ======================================== > > Sigh. All in all, I’m not happy that no one is pinging me as super-scummy except the one person who we’re officially assuming is beyond reproach. The only reason **Stickler** isn’t at the bottom of my list is because my argument seems nuts even to me. Either my scumdar is utterly useless, or we’re being played by a couple of real masters. Most likely the former, since I’m not nearly hubristic enough to believe at this point I’m the only one to see through **Inner Stickler** ’s doctor mask. Utter twaddle. > > On the positive side, that possibility does please my fiction-writer’s brain: the possibility that I’d been gloating to **pizza** about **Inner** ’s innocence, only later to start suspecting him once **pizza** is dead. That pleases my sense of dramatic irony. It would serve me right if I get lynched/murdered and **Inner** as scum won the game.) > > Anyway, since I do need to put some votes on the table – bearing in mind that we still have 48 hours left and these are very shaky votes that can probably easily be swayed – I’ll say: > > One weak **vote MentalGuy** – loyalty vote in memory of **Normal** > > Another cautious **vote Weedy** first of all, i like this effort. as others have said whether town or scum, well done. next, why are you doing this only now?!! grrr! if you tell me it’s because of **Pizza** you understand why some of us have not been as vocal. that said i’ll address my case. i’ll comment about the others later. my voting to save **Red** several times, i think, is a better indicator of my being town. i argue that it’s unlikely that scum will blatantly keep voting to save a fellow scum who is under great pressure. if my record has been spotty, that can be true of town or scum. someone who seems always right, such as being part of a lynch of a scum or not being in the lynch of a townie, is more suspicious. that’s definitely something i will look for. we have a four-day weekend so i can pore over this more unless my wife gives birth early. then all bets and likely my participation are off. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2650 "2011-08-27T14:00:45Z")
\*\*When does the Day end? And vote count?\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2651 "2011-08-27T14:12:47Z")
Day ends tomorrow (28th) at 5pm Central. I think it’s: gnarly 2 - Stanislaus, Mental Mental 2 - Diver, choie Weedy 1 - choie which means that Inner and gnarly are yet to vote. [oog] - best wishes to gnarly and wife! (and the soon to emerge gnarlykid, of course)[/oog] ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2652 "2011-08-27T14:18:37Z")
…er and Weedy, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2653 "2011-08-27T14:48:06Z")
I’ve been looking over MentalGuy. There’s a definite shift in his attitude to Skeezix: Day Four - talks himself into voting septimus ahead of Skeezix, saying septimus is more scummy apart from the No Kill. This is fair enough to a point, but note also his position on Shadow (my bolding). > [@MentalGuy](#): > > Wow, I expected to see more than this when I got on this evening. I guess Pizza is the one keeping the game alive. > > I feel conflicted. I think I should vote Red, but really the only reason I feel that way is because of the lack of Night Kill last Night. If not for that I would vote septimus, since of the leading lynch candidates, I feel outside of that lack of Night kill last night, septimus seems the most likely to be scum. His late self-save, his not knowing if he was attacked, and his claim of bullet proof townie that seems safe. It definitely looks like scum have a protector, protected septimus, then manufactured a bullet-proof claim to account for the vig not killing him. I am not sure why they would not have faked a message saying he had been attacked, though. > > I have talked myself into it > > vote septimus > \*\* > While I put Shadow at the bottom of this group of three in suspicion\*\*, he still needs to demonstrate that he actually has the power that he does. While I would be glad of him to be rid of any extra votes he might have, I am not sure that would actually prove that he was the one with the powers. I would really like to see him send a message to LightFoot. I think that would confirm both that the powers exist and that he is the one that has them. > > I only have a few minutes on here tonight, and I am not sure how much I will be able to be on tomorrow, so if anything major happens and I am unable to respond to it, I am sorry. (I am not that worried, though. All the major lynch candidates have already claimed.) This post raises some questions about Red’s claim to have failed to kill septimus on N2 > [@MentalGuy](#): > > It would also explain the lack of Night kill. But why would Red not have just claimed that he was blocked or his kill failed rather than pointing out specifically his target was protected? I guess that question may fall in the same category as why did septimus not just fake getting a message he was attacked. …and here we see the switch. Again, my bolding. Shadow has gone from less suspicious than Red to more so, with no real detail being given for why. “His actions.”) > [@MentalGuy](#): > > I would have liked to look at other suspects, which is what I was starting to do when I asked Pizza about Innner Stickler, but am having trouble just understanding what could have happened between Red, Shadow, and the others last Night to result in a No Kill. **If we do lynch one of them, I would vote for Shadow** , both because I see more scum motivation in his actions (like blocking Pizza), and I don’t really like the idea of keeping around someone of unknown alignment with extra votes. > > Pizza, I think it is rather unusual to have the doctor know whether their protectee was attacked. > > Anyway, I know it is getting along in the Day, but I will try to actually play the game tomorrow evening. Now he rows back on the significance of No-Kills. At first, septimus was only more suspicious than Red if we ignored the No-Kill (i.e. the No-Kill looked very bad for Red). Now, there’s a new most likely explanation… Also note the volunteering to be vigged which, if you knew Red wasn’t a Vig, might be seen as “Look, look, how townie I am!”. > [@MentalGuy](#): > > While I don’t think it was the best play for the scum team, I think the most likely explanation for the no kills is that they played the WIFOM game with the paranoid doc (or what they thought was a paranoid doc) and lost. I don’t understand why they would do that when they could simply block LightFoot and go after everyone else until they found the doc. > > If this is the case, I think we might be looking at a team of less experienced players as scum. That goes against my feeling that either Shadow or Red is scum, but I am just trying to come up with ideas. > If Red is a vig, I think he needs to start firing into the unclaimed/claimed vanilla pool. He can start with me if he likes, but I think Weedy or choie would be good first hits. Getting rid of pede was not a bad idea either. Now we come back to lynching Red or Shadow - but now he prefers Shadow. > [@MentalGuy](#): > > I honestly think it best to lynch either Red or Shadow toDay. I don’t have a strong preference which one, but I am voting for Shadow primarily because I don’t like his choice of blocking Pizza last Night instead of something that might have provided more information. His strong certaintly about Red also has the feel of someone who knows they will be suspicious if they sound like they are playing it safe and wants to sound confident, but is pushing it too far in the other direction. I also don’t want a possible scum hanging around with extra votes. I am fine with lynching Suburban once we get Red/Shadow figured out. Finally, with Shadow gone, Mental comes back to Red > [@MentalGuy](#): > > I agree that Red Skeezix should be the lynch for toDay. > > Vote Red Skeezix but even when he’s locking, there’s still room for doubt… > [@MentalGuy](#): > > I am at work so don’t have much time, but I still think Red should be lynched toDay. > > However, I was thinking that he was saying that some of those nights where he didn’t kill, he was not actually blocked, but simply didn’t kill since he was remorseful. > > Still, I think his claim was just made up to try to fit into everything that has happened. So I am going to lock. > > **[Vote Red Skeezix** It looks like a pattern of defending Red. Not so much in picking septimus over him, because they were both scum, but in moving Shadow from below Red to above without much explanation, and in the changing view of how telling No-Kill was (from having to be ignored to justify voting septimus over Red, to being most likely nothing to do with Shadow’s block). I want to wait to hear what Mental has to say, but I may change my vote. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2654 "2011-08-27T20:47:19Z")
OOG - best of luck to you and your wife, **gnarlycharlie**. And holy crap, **USCDiver** , I just noticed you’re in NC. Hope you’re all okay down there. Speaking of which, it’s possible I may lose power over the next couple of days. NYC is readying itself as if expecting WWIII (seriously, it looks like the pics I’ve seen of London preparing for the Blitz) and if we really do get hit hard by Irene, who knows if our power will hold up. Last time my building lost power was in, um, 2003 or whenever that massive blackout occured that took out half the Eastern Seaboard. My super’s even shutting down the elevators early this evening just in case, since he doesn’t want people getting stuck in 'em. Anyway, just wanted to let you know that if I’m not seen as online over Sunday and/or Monday, that’s why. ========================== **Weedy** , I’m surprised you found my diatribe against **Stickler** “safe”! Geeze, I’m still getting dinged for my vote against **LightFoot** , so I expected to be similarly crucified for posting suspicions about our putative MD. (Then again, I didn’t vote for him, so maybe that comes across as me being too wussy.) I think some of your defenses do make sense. I can certainly empthaize with not having your head in the game. (Same to you, **gnarlycharlie**.) Still, the problem is that some of those votes do seem opportunistic, even if they weren’t intended that way. That’s the way the ball bounces in games like this, alas. ☹ **gnarlycharlie** , are you saying that the reason you’ve been reticent is that like me, you felt intimidated by **pizza** ’s multitudinous posting? I can sympathize but, to go all meta again, you were chatting up a storm in **Mystery** and **pizza** ’s in that game, along with similarly, um, vociferous folks like **peekercpa**! (Or has **peeker** been killed already?) So you seem to be able to hold your own with the noisemakers. 😃 **Stanislaus** , you make good points. I do see some waffling there in **MentalGuy** ’s posts re: the infamous **Shadow** / **Red** / **septimus** conundrum. Even though I have a tentative vote on him, I’ll will say this to play Devil’s Advocate for a second, if only to explain why I’m so uncertain bout him. The **Shadow/Red/septimus** thing was _so_ confusing that many people were going back and forth on a daily, even hourly, basis. Even some of us (now known to be townies) who were completely certain whom to pick turned out to be wrong. I guess I’m at the point where that whole argument starts to feel like a null tell to me, because most of us were all so confused that it’s as if any way people voted was an utter crapshoot. There. End of my Devil’s Advocating. If I’m ignoring those doubts and just looking at your arguments, I feel more comfortable about voting **MentalGuy**. I’ll be very interested in your thoughts on the remaining candidates, including **Weedy** , me, **Inner** and **USCDiver**. Speaking of our illustrious doctor, I really don’t wanna harp on this, but something compels me to note that he posted today in the **Mystery Mafia** game. That’s right, he’s _dead_ there, and he _still_ chose to post there and not here. The hell? He hasn’t posted in this game since the 19th for pete’s sakes! (Uh oh. I just had a scary thought. We haven’t had one of those Delayed Kills since **LightFoot**. What do you guys think, is it at all possible that **Inner** has been offed, and _that_’s why he’s been so absent?!) **Mods, is it time for a nudge? Obviously, if there’s an in-game reason for his not participating, I’ll understand if you can’t comment.** ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2655 "2011-08-27T20:53:48Z")
> [@MentalGuy](#): > > You are right that at the time of your second vote on TexCat, septimus was behind by more than I thought. I forgot to record Inner’s unvote in the vote chart. However, when you first voted for TexCat, it gave her 4 votes to septimus’ five. Shadow only had two votes at the time. So you definitely helped bring TexCat along as an alternate lynch to septimus. And after looking at it again, I realize Inner did not remove his septimus vote until after you had voted, so at the time of your vote, it was still fairly close. You could have even tied septimus with TexCat if you had moved both your votes to him. So, while it wasn’t likely that septimus was going to be lynched, it was possible, and you did help reduce that possibility. ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2656 "2011-08-27T21:09:30Z")
@Stanislaus - When I voted septimus, I was trying to decide between him and Red. I felt fairly confident that one of them was scum, but did not really expect that they were both scum (especially since it was there conflicting information that made me think one of them was scum in the first place). So after septimus flipped scum, there was less a feeling that Red was scum. I was pretty much ready to flip a coin over Red and Shadow at that point, since I did feel that there interaction probably had a scum involved. I knew that if whichever of them got lynched first flipped Town, I would be voting the other. In the last post you cite, I wasn’t trying to defend Red, since I thought he was scum, but I did think that he intended it to be taken differently than what players were reading it as. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2657 "2011-08-28T00:12:29Z")
> [@MentalGuy](#): > > And after looking at it again, I realize Inner did not remove his septimus vote until after you had voted, so at the time of your vote, it was still fairly close. You could have even tied septimus with TexCat if you had moved both your votes to him. So, while it wasn’t likely that septimus was going to be lynched, it was possible, and you did help reduce that possibility. OK, that could be true. I know at EoD he was behind, but I don’t know the timing of the votes and unvotes. I wasn’t thinking about him. I wasn’t even thinking about Texcat either, exactly, just that I had already found her scummy, and now ATPG and NP were pushing SF, almost hysterically it seemed to me. I know choie has a friendly, open style. I learned the hard way in my first game not to vote people because I don’t like their style, so I think I shouldn’t necessarily clear her for her style either. Like, Silver Jan is “cheerfully confused” as Town or Scum; I imagine Pizzaguy dominates the conversation as Town or Scum. I think choie would be “chatty and naturalistic” as Town or Scum. Choie, the case on Inner is not ‘safe’, it is harmless. Sort of “Oh, I’m such a newbie, I don’t have any idea what’s going on. No way I could be clever enough to survive as scum.” I think most people read your case against Lightfoot, went 😕, and promptly stopped thinking about you with so much else going on. You did the same with a vote on Normal Phase on Day 3, when Septimus was under pressure. At this stage of the game, you can’t really afford to do that though, so now we get a bit more content. If you had voted Inner, that would be less suspicious to me, because scum need a mislynch and Inner is unlikely to be lynched, but you didn’t. You put a vote on Mental Guy, with the maximum amount of disclaimers, and one on me as well. Why not vote for charlie, if you find him more scummy than Mental Guy? I feel like you are slinging mud around to see what sticks. **vote choie** ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2658 "2011-08-28T00:46:59Z")
> [@Weedy](#): > > OK, that could be true. I know at EoD he was behind, but I don’t know the timing of the votes and unvotes. I wasn’t thinking about him. I wasn’t even thinking about Texcat either, exactly, just that I had already found her scummy, and now ATPG and NP were pushing SF, almost hysterically it seemed to me. Wow, you weren’t doing much thinking about anything during a very tight vote, including one that pushed **TexCat** into no-man’s-land. > [@](#): > > Choie, the case on Inner is not ‘safe’, it is harmless. Sort of “Oh, I’m such a newbie, I don’t have any idea what’s going on. No way I could be clever enough to survive as scum.” Well, at the risk of sounding like I don’t have any idea what’s going on, I don’t have any idea what you mean by this. I’m pushing people to take a look at someone whose activity seems increasingly bizarre the longer he decides not to post, someone whom everyone else seems to trust implicitly. I don’t see how this is a harmless thing to do. The reason I’m not voting him is because there’s no way he’s gonna be lynched, so there’s almost no point. But I do want it on record that I think his behavior is conduct unbecoming a member of the medical profession. 😉 But seriously, I also just want him to _start participating_ or an answer as to why he’s _not_. For chrissake, we have someone who appears to be confirmed town – the only one left at this point – and he’s doing jack shit for our side. It’s frustrating as all hell, and I want to know the reason why. I’d also like someone who’s more trustworthy to help me understand why this might be. Such as if he’s been stealth-killed like **LightFoot** , a possibility I didn’t even think of until earlier today. (Now for all I know this isn’t feasible. That’s why I want people to at least answer my questions.) I’m not saying “scum wouldn’t do that” regarding my questions re: **Inner**. Heck, I’m not really sure whether they would or not. It makes sense either way, to me – scum would probably be delighted for us to mislynch **Inner** (if a mislynch it would be), so I can see scum doing what I’m doing. At this point I don’t care about looking like scum or town, except that obviously I don’t want to be lynched myself for asking a question that I think the rest of the townies should be asking. And I also don’t want to be lynched because whether it’s of me or **Inner** , it’s one less townie in De’endee. > [@](#): > > I think most people read your case against Lightfoot, went 😕, and promptly stopped thinking about you with so much else going on. You did the same with a vote on Normal Phase on Day 3, when Septimus was under pressure. Yup, I’ve admitted I didn’t understand the case on **septimus** , and I didn’t like **Normal** ’s style, and to me everyone was almost equally scummy at that point. So I figured what the hell, throw my vote at her. I’m not proud of that. Luckily no one paid attention to me. Now I feel like the Boy who Cried Wolf, and I guess if I get lynched for it, that’ll be what I deserve. > [@](#): > > At this stage of the game, you can’t really afford to do that though, so now we get a bit more content. If you had voted Inner, that would be less suspicious to me, because scum need a mislynch and Inner is unlikely to be lynched, but you didn’t. You put a vote on Mental Guy, with the maximum amount of disclaimers, and one on me as well. Why not vote for charlie, if you find him more scummy than Mental Guy? I feel like you are slinging mud around to see what sticks. If you look at my percentage points (my method is _highly_ scientific, don’t you know!), a grand total of 4 “trustworthy” points lie between **gnarlycharlie** and **MentalGuy**. I boosted **MentalGuy** over **gnarlycharlie** because of **Normal** , whose opinion (rather ironically, in light of my previous vote on her) holds more weight to me now that she’s proven townie. She was pushing hard for **MentalGuy** and she got murdered. I have to give that fact a bit of credit. So as I already explained, **MentalGuy** got my vote, tentative though it is, because in addition to my own reasons for finding him less trustworthy than ideal, it’s my attempt to give the dead **Normal** a voice. It may be a daffy reason to vote, but hey, IMHO it’s at _least_ as valid a reason as your current vote on me. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2659 "2011-08-28T01:24:13Z")
> [@choie](#): > > OOG - best of luck to you and your wife, **gnarlycharlie**. And holy crap, **USCDiver** , I just noticed you’re in NC. Hope you’re all okay down there. We’re fine. Long state is long. We got some clouds and wind and a brief shower here, but that was it. ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2660 "2011-08-28T03:39:03Z")
Obviously GnarlyCharlie and Weedy are my two primary suspects. I know I am not infallible, though, so I wanted to see if there was any evidence that they are not scum together. So here are all the posts that they have made in the game that are to or about each other (I don’t think I missed any): This first post is from yesterDay. > [@Weedy](#): > > If Hirka is scum, I think Mental Guy might be the other one (assuming there are 4). I haven’t really looked at gnarlycharlie, but I like Normal’s idea of one off, one on (the bandwagon), and I didn’t see too much wrong with USCDiver before. I don’t think Hirka is scum with you, choie, because he had little to gain from bandwagoning you. Once Red didn’t die in the night that would have left Hirka on his own. > > If Hirka is town (less likely), then choie is more likely as a suspect to me, but I would have to look at gnarlycharlie. Mentalguy could be the second scum there as well. > > Pedescribe is really starting to be a problem, since he could be town, or could be scum and we have no way of knowing. As long as I have active suspicions, then I think it is better to pursue those, but if it gets to a point where I feel vaguely townie about everyone left, then I would want to lynch him. But it might be too late to be wrong at that point. Maybe someone can work out when LyLo is. The rest are from toDay. > [@Weedy](#): > > Choie, I know what you said, I just don’t know whether to believe it. You have this honest open air about you, but your play is wildly inconsistent. This recent bout of engaged play didn’t start when it got quiet, it started when ATPG double voted you. Why did you vote Lightfoot, instead of addressing the Shadowfacts, Red Skeezix, Septimus dilemma? A pressure vote, what does that mean? > > I reviewed gnarlycharlie’s posts. I don’t feel he has really done a lot, in terms of analysis, or voting for scum. The ongoing vote on USCDiver is kinda lazy; it stems from USC Diver voting ATPG on Day 2, after ATPG challenged people to. Not that that was a great vote by Diver, but doesn’t exactly justify gnarly voting him several days later. > > Gnarly and choie don’t seem to be on the same side, and I still need to check back to choie’s earlier play. I may yet get time tomorrow for that. > [@Weedy](#): > > Choie, what do you mean, it went over your head? You had some pretty strong opinions on Red Skeezix later. This clueless newbie thing won’t fly, because you have shown abundantly over the past couple of days that you are not at all. Newbie, yes, but you have plenty of ideas and opinions. > > I know what you mean about Inner Stickler posts, but if he wasn’t the doc, surely someone would have counterclaimed him. Unless there is no doc at all, but, … um.. I dunno. I thought they were standard equipment in Mafia games. Pretty much everyone has assumed we have a doc. There was discussion over whether he was paranoid or not, but not whether there is one. > > Not counter-claiming, at this point, would not be savvy, it would be suicidal. How can we lynch Inner if we think he is the Doc? Choie, if you yourself are the doc, then you need to claim right now, because otherwise scum will win this game. > > I think Inner should be back today, seeing as he got killed out of the other game last night. > I have a couple of questions for gnarly. > > 1. Do you think Diver is one of the remaining scum, or was that just a convenient place to vote? > > 2. When Red Skeezix posted the remorseful claim, you seemed to believe it straight away. Were you in any doubt, or did you just accept it? I’m just wondering what your thinking was, at the time. > [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > _snipped(response to someone else)_ > > guilty as charged. **Pizza** ’s posts while helpful overwhelmed me. now that he’s gone i have to go over everything like **choie** has done. > > _snipped(response to someone else)_ > > 1. offhand, he’s on my list. i must say though that i haven’t voted for him toDay. i did earlier in the game. > > 2. i totally believed it. i fell for it hook, line and sinker. When I was spitballing ideas and suggested an inexperienced scum team, Charlie said that would include choie, Weedy, and Hirka. But he did not really say anything further about Weedy. If you search Romanic’s posts, he mentions Charlie once, but only to tell someone else that Charlie had already answered their question. It sure does not seem like Charlie and Weedy had any reason to be concerned about one another. Charlie has voted me, choie, and Diver at various times, but never mentions even looking at Weedy. Weedy has currently voted for choie, and around midgame does a review of me, Diver, and Hirka, but does not mention Charlie at all. When I was pushing for a mass claim, neither one comments on whether they think it is a good idea or not, they just simply do not claim. It seems to me these two are playing a strategy of “people will notice what you do, but they won’t notice what you don’t do.” The one thing that does concern me, is that I don’t really recall either of them really talking to or about Stanislaus either. Stanislaus did vote Gnarly yesterDay and toDay, though. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2661 "2011-08-28T07:39:44Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Wow, you weren’t doing much thinking about anything during a very tight vote, including one that pushed **TexCat** into no-man’s-land. It all happened while I was asleep. I live in Australia, so I’m time zone challenged. Of course that was the day Astral moved the deadline forward an hour as well, so EoD was at 8 a.m. I checked the thread half an hour before EOD, and Shadowfacts had claimed, and Normal and Pizzaguy were going off, and I had to read, and think, in a big hurry. I don’t even think I made a bad decision, because Shadowfacts was the right choice over Texcat, seeing as how he caught Red Skeezix (yes I understand it was a theoretical possibility that Septimus would be lynched, but no one was voting Septimus at 10 minutes to EoD. It was all Texcat and Shadowfacts). Bizarre that I am getting so much heat for it now. ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2662 "2011-08-28T12:36:41Z")
> [@Weedy](#): > > It all happened while I was asleep. I live in Australia, so I’m time zone challenged. Of course that was the day Astral moved the deadline forward an hour as well, so EoD was at 8 a.m. I checked the thread half an hour before EOD, and Shadowfacts had claimed, and Normal and Pizzaguy were going off, and I had to read, and think, in a big hurry. I don’t even think I made a bad decision, because Shadowfacts was the right choice over Texcat, seeing as how he caught Red Skeezix (yes I understand it was a theoretical possibility that Septimus would be lynched, but no one was voting Septimus at 10 minutes to EoD. It was all Texcat and Shadowfacts). Bizarre that I am getting so much heat for it now. You did not get that much heat at the time because we were all focusing on the Red/Shadow situation. It was noticed at the time, though. I posted the following the next Day: > [@MentalGuy](#): > > I will try to have a bit more analysis tomorrow, but during the Night period I went back and reviewed all the votes for TexCat and the case made against her. It primarily increased my suspicion on Suburban and Weedy, but I want to go back and review what they have done overall. > > _snipped_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=132) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=134)