# De'endee Mafia

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052>\
**Category:** The Game Room\
**Created:** [July 6, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052 "2011-07-06T16:30:51Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 138

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![gnarlycharlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@gnarlycharlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarlycharlie)\
**Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2743 "2011-09-02T05:37:27Z")

</div>

Okay, here it goes.

caveats:

1. i am obviously assuming i am TOWN here.
2. i won’t be much quoting and going over most of the past Days, if at all
3. there will be metagaming

short version:

my first reaction was **choie** must be scum for the late vote for me. even after **MentalGuy** flipped town, i was still suspicious of her. after a while, i went all paranoid and thought that she and **Weedy** could have put off this charade to appear they were on opposite sides when they were actually both scummy scum. i considered their time zones. **Weedy** is in Oz and **choie** is in the US (and yes, I am in the Philippines). it would have taken a hell a lot commitment to do this and would put one in harm’s way. the other would try to live on the town cred, if any, that she received. so, if indeed you are both scum, i tip my hat off to you both.

since both were suspicious of the other and protecting people they believed were town, i believe they are both town.

therefore, the remaining two players, **Stanislaus** and **USCDiver** are scum.

Note: it is possible that **choie** or **Weedy** is scum but my long version will add more insight into my decision.  
long version:

i looked back at some stuff that has been bothering me but didn’t have time to address.

1. why NK **Pizza** and **Normal** before **Inner**?

**Inner** is power role and logically he should have been the one to NK first not last among this three. sure, he could be blocked by the roleblocker but why bother? the only reason i could find was that **Pizza** and **Normal** are very good and experienced players. they are very analytical to boot. now, this is not to put down **Inner**. he is a good and experienced player as well but those two are downright scary. i believe that despite their initial mistakes, they would have caught on to who the scum were.

so what does scum do aside from NKing in a strange order? they also leave the most inexperienced players. this is not a put down of **choie** or **Weedy** ’s abilities, just a statement of their inexperience. if you will recall, if it were an all newbie scum team, i said that it would be **choie** , **Weedy** and **Hirka** because this is **choie** ’s first, **Weedy** ’s second, just like **Hirka**. they also left me who is in maybe my 12th game. so i’d be the 4th most inexperienced. scum are trying to stack the odds in their favor here.

1. why is everyone assuming **Stanislaus** is town?

i recall **Pizza** saying that **Stanislaus** was playing well for town and that’s why everyone seems to be giving him a free pass. however i seem to recall that **Pizza** said that he would revisit **Stanislaus** if he reached the endgame since **Stanislaus** was playing too well. i said this before, town are more likely to have spotty and inconsistent play because they lack the information scum have. furthermore both **Stanislaus** and **USCDiver** make the ‘easy’ reasoning that **Weedy** and i are the last scum. seriously, if i were scum going down, i would not let my LAST fellow scum save me in that manner. that would be poor play. it is strange that **Stanislaus** , an experienced player, would make such a statement. if he said he wasn’t sure if **Weedy** was the last scum or said she probably was a misguided town, i probably would have not said anything.

so we have **Stanislaus** and **USCDiver** playing all of us. before my vote, the three noobs were the only one with votes which leads to an easy scum win. **Stanislaus** is playing the aggressive lead scum and **USCDiver** is playing the low-key agreeing scum. they have the remaining three town tearing each other apart.

obviously, convincing you to vote for **Stanislaus** now might be too much to ask. however if you can believe that i am town or that **Weedy** is town, if you won’t consider **Stanislaus** , surely **USCDiver** is the likely partner of a scum **gnarly** or scum **Weedy**. so let’s lynch **USCDiver**.

in other words:

**choie** , if you think that i’m scum and **Weedy** isn’t, who is my partner, **Stanislaus** or **USCDiver**? if you can’t vote the former, vote the latter.

**Weedy** , if you think **choie** is scum but i’m not, who is her partner, **Stanislaus** or **USCDiver**? if you can’t vote the former, vote the latter.

damn, i hope i got all that i wanted to say in there.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![gnarlycharlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@gnarlycharlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarlycharlie)\
**Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2744 "2011-09-02T05:46:53Z")

</div>

additional editing because i didn’t have time.  
2. why is everyone assuming **Stanislaus** is town?

i recall **Pizza** saying that **Stanislaus** was playing well for town and that’s why everyone seems to be giving him a free pass. however i seem to recall that **Pizza** said that he would revisit **Stanislaus** if he reached the endgame since **Stanislaus** was playing too well. i said this before, town are more likely to have spotty and inconsistent play because they lack the information scum have. furthermore both **Stanislaus** and **USCDiver** make the ‘easy’ reasoning that **Weedy** and i are the last scum. seriously, if i were scum going down, i would not let my LAST fellow scum save me in that manner. that would be poor play. it is strange that **Stanislaus** and **USCDiver** , experienced players, would make such statements. if they said they weren’t sure if **Weedy** was the last scum or said she probably was a misguided town, i probably would have not said anything.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\
**Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2745 "2011-09-02T06:13:27Z")

</div>

> [@gnarlycharlie](#):
>
> i recall **Pizza** saying that **Stanislaus** was playing well for town and that’s why everyone seems to be giving him a free pass. however i seem to recall that **Pizza** said that he would revisit **Stanislaus** if he reached the endgame since **Stanislaus** was playing too well.

You got a cite for that? Because I think that’s what he said about **Inner Stickler** , not **Stanislaus**.

Just checked and here are two of **pizza** ’s last remarks on **Stanislaus** :

> [@Askthepizzaguy](#):
>
> Stanislaus-
> 
> [spoiler] **Day One-**
> 
> [ul]  
> [li]Votes \*\*Kelly \*\*early, does not appear to be coordinating to save **Koldanar**.[/li][li]Votes **pedescribe** , a current suspect.[/li][li]No vote for septimus or Red.[/li][/ul]  
> **Day Two-**
> 
> [ul]  
> [li]Votes **special ed** , which none of the scums did so far, and special ed was promptly murdered.[/li][li]Votes **MentalGuy** , a current suspect.[/li][li]No vote for septimus or Red.[/li][/ul]  
> **Day Three-**
> 
> [ul]  
> [li]Voted \*\*septimus \*\*early, leaves his vote there, doesn’t flinch later when it appears as though the scums would have had to spare **septimus**.[/li][/ul]  
> **Day Four-**
> 
> [ul]  
> [li]Voted **septimus** , and voted \*\*septimus \*\*immediately after Pizza makes the big case to lynch \*\*septimus \*\*over the alternatives. **Feels extremely townie.** [/li][/ul]  
> **Day Five-**
> 
> [ul]  
> [li]Voted\*\* Red Skeezix\*\* early, and late, against the wishes of the mafia and directly after septimus’ death. **Feels extremely townie.** [/li][/ul]  
> **Day Six-**
> 
> [ul]  
> [li]Voted\*\* Red Skeezix\*\* twice.[/li][/ul]  
> [/spoiler]Appears to be not coordinating with the scum’s efforts. Directly opposes all their major plans, votes to lynch correct suspects.
> 
> VERY ICE COLD play if scum. **I want Stanislaus to speak on my behalf after I am dead.**
> 
> Reads extremely townie.

> [@Askthepizzaguy](#):
>
> Stanislaus
> 
> Using my “[**Septimus and votes**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14104147#post14104147)” I-V as a reference point, but I also had to go digging for his posts using the “Who Posted?” feature since he didn’t talk about septimus as much.
> 
> townie posts:
> 
> [Post 659](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14042886&postcount=659)  
> **Reason** : He’s talking about MentalGuy and Diver as suspects and giving reasons.
> 
> \*\*893 Stan vote: Septimus \*\*  
> “I’ve got a certain amount of sympathy for septimus’s point that he wasn’t about to argue his way out of locked in votes. It’s true as far as it goes. But he’d spent the whole day in close contention for the lynch - he should have made his position a lot clearer before the very last minute. I know I said power roles should try to argue their way out of votes first, but I didn’t even see him do that very much. It looks like he was always planning to wriggle out at the last minute.”
> 
> **[954](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14061610&postcount=954)**  
> [**995**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14065038&postcount=995)- big case on MentalGuy  
> 996-  
> 1000-  
> 1084  
> 1086  
> DING DING DING DING DING
> 
> 1282-  
> vote Red Skeezix\*\*.  
> **Assuming Red is scum, this is townie.**
> 
> **[1438](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14095303&postcount=1438)- vote septimus, plus reasoning.**  
> \*\*  
> 1432-  
> I do like the case on Mental Guy. When I voted for him, he suggested that I was guilty of confirmation bias in making my case. That to be fair is always a risk, so it’s good to see someone else finding him suspicious.
> 
> 1482-  
> Well, I suppose Red voting septimus was pretty inevitable. But bussing isn’t going to let you off the hook now.  
> I say that because I’m about to:  
> **unvote Red**  
> **vote septimus**  
> (Confirm lock-in on septimus)
> 
> 1717-  
> I don’t see how this gets Skeezix the benefit of any doubt:  
> Night Three: No Town (or any other) death. Skeezix was blocked.  
> Day Four: We lynch septimus. Skeezix had very little to do with this.  
> Night Four: No deaths - while Skeezix was under pressure to kill.  
> I’m prepared to wait for Skeezix to explain how he’s failed to kill for the fourth Night running, but there’s no part of that that makes me want to give him the benefit of the doubt. The fact that when he fails to kill, Town don’t die strikes me as damning rather than exculpatory.
> 
> 1763-  
> Oh yeah - the conclusion to that:  
> **vote Red Skeezix**
> 
> 1964-  
> You guys are nuts.  
> He claimed Doc. We don’t have counter-claim. Against that you have the theory that:
> 
> 1. Maybe we don’t have a doc - and maybe scum would gamble on that.
> 2. The detail in the colour doesn’t match canon - and there’s no way the mods fluffed an adjective.
> 3. The blocking colour sounds hostile - and maybe that’s not because scum were blocking Lightfoot too.
> 4. After you’ve started being suspicious of him, Inner starts thinking that he might be lynched.  
> Maybe, maybe, maybe. I’ll need a lot more than that to lynch a claimed Doc.
> 
> 2032-  
> It tells me that Skeezix is lying scum who does not have any ability to kill other than as part of the scum team.  
> If both our interpretations are consistent with the facts, what’s the point of this experiment?
> 
> Highlights-
> 
> Not as strong as Normal Phase in the early game, in terms of townie-ness.  
> [ul]  
> [li] However, he comes back very strong (assuming Red Skeezix is scum).[/li][li]Helps lynch septimus, very consistent on septimus.[/li][li]Goes after Red Skeezix HARD.[/li][li]Goes after MentalGuy and Diver, current suspects, early.[/li][li]Constantly confronts/stands up to me and my bad reasoning (if said reasoning is in fact bad…)[/li][/ul]  
> Stanislaus, if scum, has adopted a fairly SUICIDAL approach to the game, which is doing his best to lynch septimus and Red Skeezix as hard as possible.
> 
> You can’t kill off all your teammates and expect to do well against townies and their power roles you’ve been failing to kill up until now.
> 
> I’d wager half my winnings on septimus that Stanislaus is townie. Early game feels a bit fluff-y, though. Still, hard to suggest he’s bussing. That’s some damned good bussing.

(However, as I believe **Normal** aptly said, it doesn’t necessarily help one’s case to use **pizza** as a barometer of who’s town and who’s scum. He’s clearly a good player, but for whatever reason he was stone cold wrong in this game. He thought **Suburban Plankton** , **Inner Stickler** , and **Hirka T’Bawa** were scum, and hotly defended **Red Skeezix** of all people. I could also use his suspicion against me as an example, but obviously you won’t know that he was wrong about that until the game’s over… or unless you’re scum, in which case I ain’t tellin’ you nothin’ you don’t already know.)

The thing is, if **Stanislaus** and **USCDiver** are both scum, that means they both tried to bus **Red Skeezix** two days running ( **Diver** actually _three_ days running), and **Stanislaus** voted against his Godfather two days in a row as well. That seems a bit reckless for scum, isn’t it?

I’m really not 100% sure about anyone in this game, heaven knows. I \*could \*buy **Diver** as scum; he’s my scum dark horse these days due to that Day Five conundrum. Also, as long as you’re bringing up **pizza** , that doughy lad certainly suspected **Diver** – during his last Day he kept trying to get **Hirka** to vote against me and **Diver** , and me to vote against **Hirka** and **Diver** , and probably wanted **Diver** to vote me and **Hirka** (I don’t remember if that combo ever came up).

But again, like **Stanislaus** , if **Diver** is scum, he played a reckless game by putting scum’s Godfather and their assassin in play. He voted **septimus** early (the Day before everyone else did), then went after **Red Skeezix** with a fervor akin to Javert going after Jean Valjean – he double-voted **Red** three Days running, more than any other person in this game. That’s not just bussing, that’s double-decker bussing with an Amtrak train on top!

So frankly if **Stanislaus** and **USCDiver** are scum together, they totally deserve the win – and a special Kamikaze award to boot.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![gnarlycharlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@gnarlycharlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarlycharlie)\
**Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2746 "2011-09-02T06:53:32Z")

</div>

> [@choie](#):
>
> You got a cite for that? Because I think that’s what he said about **Inner Stickler** , not **Stanislaus**.
> 
> Just checked and here are two of **pizza** ’s last remarks on **Stanislaus** :
> 
> (However, as I believe **Normal** aptly said, it doesn’t necessarily help one’s case to use **pizza** as a barometer of who’s town and who’s scum. He’s clearly a good player, but for whatever reason he was stone cold wrong in this game. He thought **Suburban Plankton** , **Inner Stickler** , and **Hirka T’Bawa** were scum, and hotly defended **Red Skeezix** of all people. I could also use his suspicion against me as an example, but obviously you won’t know that he was wrong about that until the game’s over… or unless you’re scum, in which case I ain’t tellin’ you nothin’ you don’t already know.)
> 
> The thing is, if **Stanislaus** and **USCDiver** are both scum, that means they both tried to bus **Red Skeezix** two days running ( **Diver** actually _three_ days running), and **Stanislaus** voted against his Godfather two days in a row as well. That seems a bit reckless for scum, isn’t it?
> 
> I’m really not 100% sure about anyone in this game, heaven knows. I \*could \*buy **Diver** as scum; he’s my scum dark horse these days due to that Day Five conundrum. Also, as long as you’re bringing up **pizza** , that doughy lad certainly suspected **Diver** – during his last Day he kept trying to get **Hirka** to vote against me and **Diver** , and me to vote against **Hirka** and **Diver** , and probably wanted **Diver** to vote me and **Hirka** (I don’t remember if that combo ever came up).
> 
> But again, like **Stanislaus** , if **Diver** is scum, he played a reckless game by putting scum’s Godfather and their assassin in play. He voted **septimus** early (the Day before everyone else did), then went after **Red Skeezix** with a fervor akin to Javert going after Jean Valjean – he double-voted **Red** three Days running, more than any other person in this game. That’s not just bussing, that’s double-decker bussing with an Amtrak train on top!
> 
> So frankly if **Stanislaus** and **USCDiver** are scum together, they totally deserve the win – and a special Kamikaze award to boot.

nope, i can’t say i can cite. i just stepped back and thought about it. if i’m right, he IS stone cold. i’ll try to wade over **pizza** ’s posts. think about my logic. would you be willing to take a gamble?

if you really want to metagame, check out the game on [idlemafia.com](http://idlemafia.com) that concluded just hours ago. i was the last scum standing. i don’t think we would have won if i made plays like making partner **Weedy** save me. in fact, i got my town cred from bussing my fellow scum hard and even was the deciding vote to lynch him. so would you at least consider that **Weedy** and i are not scum together? otherwise, neither **Stanislaus** and **USCDiver** will be lynched and town will lose. i don’t intend to give them the win on a silver platter, kamikaze or no.

oh, if i’m right and town loses, do i get a brownie at least?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\
**Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2747 "2011-09-02T07:24:54Z")

</div>

> [@choie](#):
>
> Edited to add: **Weedy** , I didn’t get the impression from **Stanislaus** ’s post that he was implying you’d double-voted for **MentalGuy** nearly simultaneously. So I don’t think he meant to misrepresent you… or at least, if he did, it didn’t work on me, anyway.

I dunno, maybe I’m being over-sensitive because he then went on to declare me scum with gnarly.

I have been thinking about gnarly’s theory since he voted. I do feel like he and I are being rail-roaded. We are both easy targets because neither of us have a lot of posts, or perfect voting records. But gnarly is right that it is easy for scum to have good vote records. They know who to vote for. When they know Red is going to flip scum at some point, then they would want to be on the right side. If town bites itself, so much the better, but would they stick their neck out to make it happen?

I know I am town, and charlie is feeling town (besides which, I don’t think there is anyone left for him to be scum with). Between Diver, Stanislaus and choie I am really not sure. I suddenly have this horrible feeling that I have been fixated on choie because she is so different to me, and I find her behaviour hard to understand, but I thought I found a pattern in it before.

Stanislaus has been particularly townie in the past, but he is either misguided or malevolent here, pushing me and charlie.

Diver is indeed a dark horse, and I really don’t like that he voted me first thing, for a bad reason, and now is just brushing me off. It looks planned.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\
**Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2748 "2011-09-02T10:04:11Z")

</div>

**vote Diver**

for starting the wagon on Mental Guy - reason given: Normal voted for him

for voting me today - reason given: It’s contradictory to discuss more than one idea in the same post.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\
**Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2749 "2011-09-02T12:19:09Z")

</div>

> [@gnarlycharlie](#):
>
> Okay, here it goes.
> 
> caveats:
> 
> 1. i am obviously assuming i am TOWN here.
> 2. i won’t be much quoting and going over most of the past Days, if at all
> 3. there will be metagaming
> 
> short version:
> 
> my first reaction was **choie** must be scum for the late vote for me. even after **MentalGuy** flipped town, i was still suspicious of her. after a while, i went all paranoid and thought that she and **Weedy** could have put off this charade to appear they were on opposite sides when they were actually both scummy scum. i considered their time zones. **Weedy** is in Oz and **choie** is in the US (and yes, I am in the Philippines). it would have taken a hell a lot commitment to do this and would put one in harm’s way. the other would try to live on the town cred, if any, that she received. so, if indeed you are both scum, i tip my hat off to you both.
> 
> since both were suspicious of the other and protecting people they believed were town, i believe they are both town.
> 
> therefore, the remaining two players, **Stanislaus** and **USCDiver** are scum.
> 
> Note: it is possible that **choie** or **Weedy** is scum but my long version will add more insight into my decision.

So choie and Weedy (and gnarly) aren’t scum, leaving me and Diver by default. Except choie and Weedy might be scum after all.

Why aren’t choie and Weedy scum? Because they took different sides of a vote. And they probably didn’t co-ordinate.

At this stage in the game speculating about what scum are going to do in relation to their partners is WIFOM. Will they try to back each other up to present a united front? Will they distance themselves in case one of them goes down? There’s no particular reason to believe they won’t vote opposite each other, or start a fight.

The problem with this argument is thinking that you can nail down two people as town. If you can, of course that only leaves two others to be scum, so it’s tempting to simplify things that way. But it’s a big risk to assume you’re ID-ing town correctly twice.

> [@](#):
>
> long version:
> 
> i looked back at some stuff that has been bothering me but didn’t have time to address.
> 
> 1. why NK **Pizza** and **Normal** before **Inner**?
> 
> **Inner** is power role and logically he should have been the one to NK first not last among this three. sure, he could be blocked by the roleblocker but why bother? the only reason i could find was that **Pizza** and **Normal** are very good and experienced players. they are very analytical to boot. now, this is not to put down **Inner**. he is a good and experienced player as well but those two are downright scary. i believe that despite their initial mistakes, they would have caught on to who the scum were.
> 
> so what does scum do aside from NKing in a strange order? they also leave the most inexperienced players. this is not a put down of **choie** or **Weedy** ’s abilities, just a statement of their inexperience. if you will recall, if it were an all newbie scum team, i said that it would be **choie** , **Weedy** and **Hirka** because this is **choie** ’s first, **Weedy** ’s second, just like **Hirka**. they also left me who is in maybe my 12th game. so i’d be the 4th most inexperienced. scum are trying to stack the odds in their favor here.

The question is a good one, in some ways.

Pizza was vanilla, but he was confirmed town, which made him at least a reasonable target. Normal wasn’t though and on that basis should have survived longer than Inner.

If Normal and weren’t killed for game-status, they were killed for their posts. But this brings us back to WIFOM. Scum will sometimes kill people who are getting too close - but sometimes they’ll kill people who are dead wrong so that town assume they \*were \*getting too close. Or maybe scum were afraid they would get too close.

But I really don’t see what this has to do with me or Diver. In three nights, Scum killed Pizza, Normal, Inner. Fine - they bumped off the talkative, experienced players, and then took out the last confirmed town. So therefore… what exactly? I’m sure if they could have killed off more than three players in three nights they would have, but then the game would be over.

What worries about this is that it doesn’t really provide any reason for me and Diver to be scum. But it does raise the WIFOMy issue of why scum killed who they did.

> [@](#):
>
> 1. why is everyone assuming \*\*Stanislaus \*\*is town?
> 
> i recall \*\*Pizza \*\*saying that \*\*Stanislaus \*\*was playing well for town and that’s why everyone seems to be giving him a free pass. however i seem to recall that \*\*Pizza \*\*said that he would revisit \*\*Stanislaus \*\*if he reached the endgame since \*\*Stanislaus \*\*was playing too well. i said this before, town are more likely to have spotty and inconsistent play because they lack the information scum have. furthermore both \*\*Stanislaus \*\*and \*\*USCDiver \*\*make the ‘easy’ reasoning that \*\*Weedy \*\*and i are the last scum.

I double-voted you to make the vote closer and see if that provoked a reaction. It did. choie followed me up, Weedy pushed MentalGuy. If MG had flipped scum, I would have been looking hard at choie. But he flipped town, which means that Weedy went out of her way to lynch a townie. I already suspect you of being scum, and it makes little sense for a scum Weedy to expose herself just to get one town lynched instead of another. So I think it’s more likely that Weedy panicked and voted to save her last teammate.

However, as should be clear from my vote, you are my number one suspect.

But this - this bit is superscummy:

> [@](#):
>
> **seriously, if i were scum going down, i would not let my LAST fellow scum save me in that manner. that would be poor play.** it is strange that \*\*Stanislaus \*\*and **USCDiver** , experienced players, would make such statements. _if they said they weren’t sure if Weedy was the last scum or said she probably was a misguided town, i probably would have not said anything._

You weren’t there, remember? That’s your claim - that you didn’t come back to vote because you weren’t online. There’s no question of you “letting” anything happen. But now you’re saying you were there and would have stopped it.

Either you didn’t know it was happening, in which case your argument about “not letting it happen” is irrelevant, or you were there, in which case you’ve lied about your voting behaviour.

Secondly, what would you have said if I’d made statements like this:

“I am pretty sure that Weedy is gnarly’s scumbuddy, but my strongest lead is gnarly. First things first!”

"The motivation I can see for that is scum defending another scum, specifically the role-blocker. (Either that or Weedy is mistaken town, but very certain about her mistake.) "

“Hmm. OK - it not being a double-vote waters down my case a little.”

I’m leaving some room for doubt on Weedy. That’s why I’m voting for you first - once you flip scum, I’ll be fully convinced of Weedy’s guilt.

gnarly’s case on me (and Diver) doesn’t hang together. It feels like a desparate attack on the person gunning for him, that was cobbled together in haste. He contradicts himself on whether he was online last night, and he misrepresents my certainty on Weedy, while saying that he wouldn’t vote me if I was less certain.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\
**Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2750 "2011-09-02T13:24:23Z")

</div>

Charlie, I am not sure about Stanislaus, but I will agree on Diver and we can sort it out tomorrow.

Stanislaus, choie, one of you is town. Stanislaus, you have said you are not 100% certain if I am charlie’s partner. Do you think it could be Diver? Do you have any particular reason for ruling him out?

Choie, if you are town, then I was completely wrong about you, and have messed up the game for town, since there is probably no way you will listen to me now.

I have to go to bed, but I’ll come back at EOD.

**unvote choie**

**vote USCDiver** (lock)

(I am having major problems connecting to the Dope tonight, so I hope this goes through at least once, and not more than a few times.)

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\
**Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2751 "2011-09-02T13:36:09Z")

</div>

> [@gnarlycharlie](#):
>
> Okay, here it goes.
> 
> caveats:
> 
> 1. i am obviously assuming i am TOWN here.

This is where your argument breaks down for me, right at the beginning. You can’t base an entire argument on someone else being scum by saying you are Town.

> [@gnarlycharlie](#):
>
> it is strange that **Stanislaus** and **USCDiver** , experienced players, would make such statements.

This is, I think, only my 11th game, so I’m no more experienced than you.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\
**Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2752 "2011-09-02T13:55:41Z")

</div>

> [@Weedy](#):
>
> **vote Diver**
> 
> for starting the wagon on Mental Guy - reason given: Normal voted for him
> 
> for voting me today - reason given: It’s contradictory to discuss more than one idea in the same post.

When those ‘more than one ideas’ are mutually exclusive, then yeah, it’s contradictory.

> [@Weedy](#):
>
> Charlie, I am not sure about Stanislaus, but I will agree on Diver and we can sort it out tomorrow.
> 
> Stanislaus, choie, one of you is town.

Why can’t they both be town? You seemed convinced that \*\*gnarly \*\*is town now, how can you be so sure?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\
**Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2753 "2011-09-02T14:21:51Z")

</div>

**vote gnarlycharlie**

(lock)

The more I think about it, the more his vote on me and Diver looks like desperate scum spraying mud and hoping it will stick. Now I see Weedy pushing Diver ahead of gnarly and it makes me nervous. Remember, being the first to reach a given vote total means it takes 2 votes to prevent that lynch. At this stage, that’s quite a big deficit.

Weedy, I’m more suspicious of you than Diver, more suspicious of Diver than choie. Tomorrow, I’ll take my time to make the right call.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\
**Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2754 "2011-09-02T14:34:15Z")

</div>

**Stanislaus** and **USCDiver** , if you get a chance, could you answer my question from yesterday? ( **USCDiver** gets a few questions, actually. :))

> [@choie](#):
>
> **USCDiver** , what pings you about **Weedy** and **gnarlycharlie**? If I’m not mistaken, you were pushing at **Weedy** yesterday for her comments about not trust me _vis-a-vis_ my voting for **MentalGuy**. Has any other past behavior or votes on her part made you suspicious?
> 
> Also, do you have any doubts about me (I’d assume you do) or even **Stanislaus**?
> 
> This question is for both you and **Stanislaus** : the survivors’ votes on Day Five were split between the top contenders: **Red Skeezix** ( **USCDiver** / **Stanislaus** /me) and **ShadowFacts** ( **gnarlycharlie** and **Weedy** ). Do both of you think it’s likely that all of us who voted **Red Skeezix** on Day Five were town\*, and that all scum only voted for **ShadowFacts**?
> 
> - Remember, none of the folks who voted **Red Skeezix** Day Five and subsequently died flipped scum.

Now to other quotes 'round the globe:

> [@gnarlycharlie](#):
>
> if they said they weren’t sure if **Weedy** was the last scum or said she probably was a misguided town, i probably would have not said anything.

Actually, I’m fairly sure that **Stanislaus** did indeed opine after **MentalGuy** ’s death that **Weedy** was either scum or a townie who had been very certain of **MentalGuy** ’s scummitude.

> [@gnarlycharlie](#):
>
> if you really want to metagame, check out the game on [idlemafia.com](http://idlemafia.com) that concluded just hours ago. i was the last scum standing. i don’t think we would have won if i made plays like making partner **Weedy** save me. in fact, i got my town cred from bussing my fellow scum hard and even was the deciding vote to lynch him.

Uh oh. Here you’re accidentally pushing the opposite point that you’re trying to argue. You give away your ability to be incredibly cold and staunch as a scum player. So why wouldn’t such an icy, strategic dude play a game of chicken by not double-voting and letting himself nearly get lynched by patiently waiting for someone (even a possible partner) to save his bacon?

I’m not saying what you’re claiming couldn’t possibly be true, but I do think it’s not as excuplating as you think it is.

> [@gnarlycharlie](#):
>
> so would you at least consider that **Weedy** and i are not scum together? otherwise, neither **Stanislaus** and **USCDiver** will be lynched and town will lose. i don’t intend to give them the win on a silver platter, kamikaze or no.

I just don’t get why you’re so amazingly certain about **Weedy** and (suddenly) _me_, for that matter – someone you’ve been voting for for several days. This abrupt switch seems really weird to me. Why have you been waiting all game to point the finger at these two guys?

> [@gnarlycharlie](#):
>
> Oh, if i’m right and town loses, do i get a brownie at least?

That seems fair. 🙂

> [@Weedy](#):
>
> I have been thinking about gnarly’s theory since he voted. I do feel like he and I are being rail-roaded. We are both easy targets because neither of us have a lot of posts, or perfect voting records. But gnarly is right that it is easy for scum to have good vote records. They know who to vote for. When they know Red is going to flip scum at some point, then they would want to be on the right side. If town bites itself, so much the better, but would they stick their neck out to make it happen?

Double-voting **Red** three Days in a row and double-voting **Septimus** twice? As someone said, a four-person scum group can’t survive by tossing their own teammates overboard so vociferously.

> [@Weedy](#):
>
> I know I am town, and charlie is feeling town (besides which, I don’t think there is anyone left for him to be scum with).

This, I don’t get. Why couldn’t he be partners with, say, **Stanislaus** or me? Or you, for that matter, but I understand why you can’t make that supposition. The scum in this game have a lot of nerve, and it really wouldn’t surprise me if a strange pairing made up the final twosome, where each tries so hard to make the other look guilty that they seem to rule each other out.

> [@Weedy](#):
>
> Between Diver, Stanislaus and choie I am really not sure. I suddenly have this horrible feeling that I have been fixated on choie because she is so different to me, and I find her behaviour hard to understand, but I thought I found a pattern in it before.

Bingo. By George, I think she’s got it! 😃

> [@Weedy](#):
>
> Choie, if you are town, then I was completely wrong about you, and have messed up the game for town, since there is probably no way you will listen to me now.

That much I’ll grant you. But not because you’ve been suspicious of me; I listened to **Normal** and **pizza** – two people who were pretty hard on me too – on **MentalGuy** and **Hirka**. What worries me is that you’re exonerating **gnarlycharlie** out of hand for no apparent reason except “feelings.”

> [@USCDiver](#):
>
> When those ‘more than one ideas’ are mutually exclusive, then yeah, it’s contradictory.
> 
> Why can’t they both be town? You seemed convinced that \*\*gnarly \*\*is town now, how can you be so sure?

That’s what I’m wondering. And I’m wondering it about you vs. **Weedy** – how can you be so sure she’s scum? What are your reasons other than her apparent contradiction yesterday?

I hate that I’m feeling caught between two factions – **Weedy** / **Gnarly** and **Stanislaus** / **USCDiver**. Yet I don’t see a reason why we don’t have two extremely clever scum working both sides. Why couldn’t **Weedy** be partners with **Stanislaus** , for example? This lets them push **gnarlycharlie** and **USCDiver** , respectively, while looking as if they’re on opposite sides of the fence.

I’m just finding it weird that **gnarlycharlie** is suspecting **Diver/Stanislaus** out of _nowhere_ toDay; ditto **Weedy** suddenly suspecting **Stanislaus** just because he made a statement against her. And why has **Diver** turned on **Weedy** when yesterDay he was against **gnarlycharlie**?

At least **Stanislaus** has been consistently against **gnarlycharlie**. That comforts me a bit; I like consistency.

Basically all y’all are confusing the heck out of me.

I think it would behoove us if everyone who’s changing their votes to someone new could please lay out your cases as to why you’ve switched. Hopefully you’ll include reasons that go beyond a single Day’s behavior.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\
**Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2755 "2011-09-02T14:37:43Z")

</div>

> [@USCDiver](#):
>
> This is, I think, only my 11th game, so I’m no more experienced than you.

it’s fun to read comments about everyone’s relative inexperience in mafia. The mystery mash was my 5th game of mafia, ever. When I started this game, I only had 4 played games under my belt. I’m more inexperienced than almost all of you!

And yet somehow, you guys trusted me to run a game! Bwahahaha!

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\
**Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2756 "2011-09-02T14:38:02Z")

</div>

**Astral dearest, could you provide a vote count when you get a chance? Thank you!**

Edited to add: Yeah, gotta say I’m astonished that someone with 11 games under his belt would consider himself inexperienced! Holy cow, what does it take to be considered _experienced_ in this game?!

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\
**Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2757 "2011-09-02T14:52:33Z")

</div>

USCDiver (3): gnarlycharlie, Weedy, Weedy

Gnarlycharlie (3): Stanislaus, Choie, Stanislaus

Weedy (1): USCDiver

Stanislaus (1): gnarlycharlie

With these votes, USCDiver would be lynched. Day ends in 7 hours and changed. Please check for any errors.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\
**Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2758 "2011-09-02T14:55:53Z")

</div>

> [@Astral\_Rejection](#):
>
> it’s fun to read comments about everyone’s relative inexperience in mafia. The mystery mash was my 5th game of mafia, ever. When I started this game, I only had 4 played games under my belt. I’m more inexperienced than almost all of you!
> 
> And yet somehow, you guys trusted me to run a game! Bwahahaha!

I don’t consider myself inexperienced, but I’m by no means an expert. I was just contrasting myself to gnarly where he said “they also left me who is in maybe my 12th game. so i’d be the 4th most inexperienced”. Also I moderated the Cecilvania game after playing in, I think, 2 or 3 games and reading another.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\
**Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2759 "2011-09-02T14:59:41Z")

</div>

I didn’t mean to call you out. I coulda quoted anybody, your post was just handy.

I just thought the whole conversation was amusing. 🙂

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\
**Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2760 "2011-09-02T15:02:35Z")

</div>

Also, I may have lied to you. I still have all of my role PMs from the games I’ve played, and it turns out I’ve played 8 games total, counting mystery mash. Funny how memory works… Before checking, I would have sworn it was only 5 games.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\
**Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2761 "2011-09-02T15:07:36Z")

</div>

Well, shit, I think gnarly is the other scum anyway. I’ll go ahead and self-preserve at the same time

\*\*unvote weedy

vote gnarly

vote gnarly\*\*

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\
**Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/2762 "2011-09-02T15:12:26Z")

</div>

**USCDiver** , you don’t happen to have me on ignore, do you? 🙂 If not, could you answer at least one of my questions up above? Take your pick if you don’t have time to answer all three or so.

(Actually I suppose if he did have me on ignore, he wouldn’t be reading this message now.)

Edited to add: Also, I cannot be_lieve_ I’m gonna be the deciding vote. Crap crap crap. On the other hand, it gives me enough power that you guys should be answering all questions I put to you, mwah-ha-ha.

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