# De'endee Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 6, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052 "2011-07-06T16:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/261 "2011-07-13T17:51:33Z")
> [@Romanic](#): > > @Normal Phase > > I’m looking at your case on Kelly. You wrote: > [bold mine, for emphasis] > > And here’s what Kelly actually wrote: > I’m not seeing aggressivity here. Which part did you find aggressive? The next part; my comments are prior to the quotes they refer to. > [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Half a dozen per game? Shouldn’t be too much of a task to link to some examples, then? ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/262 "2011-07-13T17:56:17Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > What is your opinion on Kelly? I haven’t really been paying much attention to Kelly. At this point, the votes on Kelly have put him into the lead for quite some time (I think, no tally in front of me) and therefore Kelly has experienced all the pressure he’s going to experience. Further, while pressuring people is useful in shaking things loose, there’s a point where it doesn’t do anything more, especially if said person is innocent. Further, since Kelly is the leader, my options have been to either follow the wagon or generate alternatives. I’ve been focusing my attention on that. In passing, I haven’t seen anything from Kelly that either condemns or exonerates him. But I don’t really expect to; Kelly would have to be a rather bad player to give away something incriminating if he is guilty, simply because he’s under pressure on day one. Best move is to play it cool, and I think he’s done that. Same is true if you’re innocent, panicking just makes things worse. I don’t really have a conclusion on Kelly. I won’t be voting Kelly just to spare myself, though. I am aware that I’m either the first or second place candidate now, but that doesn’t make Kelly any more or less guilty. I could go over Kelly’s posts and point out anything I see, if you’re interested. I’d caution you that there probably isn’t/really shouldn’t be anything to see, given that Kelly has been the lynch leader all round and hasn’t overreacted. ---
**Author:** ![Romanic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@Romanic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Romanic)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/263 "2011-07-13T17:58:26Z")
I play a lot of mafia with ATPG (Askthepizzaguy) on other sites, and it’s typical of him to pressure vote like this (and move around his vote a lot). Of course he will do the same as Scum, so it’s a null tell here, in my opinion. I also agree with the reasoning that voting other players for pressure can be good, specially in the early game where cases aren’t strong anyway. I can’t blame ATPG for raising a 2nd lynch candidate here, by putting another vote on Koldanar. We did get reaction - information - from it, didn’t we? > [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > The next part; my comments are prior to the quotes they refer to. Hrm, alright. I can see aggressivity in Kelly asking for examples, as it happened. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/264 "2011-07-13T17:59:52Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > I haven’t really been paying much attention to Kelly. > > At this point, the votes on Kelly have put him into the lead for quite some time (I think, no tally in front of me) and therefore Kelly has experienced all the pressure he’s going to experience. Further, while pressuring people is useful in shaking things loose, there’s a point where it doesn’t do anything more, especially if said person is innocent. Further, since Kelly is the leader, my options have been to either follow the wagon or generate alternatives. I’ve been focusing my attention on that. > > In passing, I haven’t seen anything from Kelly that either condemns or exonerates him. But I don’t really expect to; Kelly would have to be a rather bad player to give away something incriminating if he is guilty, simply because he’s under pressure on day one. Best move is to play it cool, and I think he’s done that. Same is true if you’re innocent, panicking just makes things worse. > > I don’t really have a conclusion on Kelly. I won’t be voting Kelly just to spare myself, though. I am aware that I’m either the first or second place candidate now, but that doesn’t make Kelly any more or less guilty. I could go over Kelly’s posts and point out anything I see, if you’re interested. I’d caution you that there probably isn’t/really shouldn’t be anything to see, given that Kelly has been the lynch leader all round and hasn’t overreacted. fair enough, of course, I’m a little surprised when you state that the pressure Kelly is under shouldn’t influence reactions from Kelly. I’m left to infer that you think that pressure can create discussion and worthwhile reactions, but not vote-leading pressure? (unless a player is bad) Or do you mean that applying pressure only results in useful reactions from bad players, and you don’t expect Kelly to be a bad player, but others possibly are? ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/265 "2011-07-13T18:03:13Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > I’ll grow on you… just you wait. 😃 Like a fungus? ---
**Author:** ![Romanic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@Romanic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Romanic)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/266 "2011-07-13T18:03:50Z")
Here’s a tally. ## 4 KellyCriterion (Normal Phase #196, ShadowFacts #197, Stanislaus #204, choie #247) 3 ATPG (gnarlycharlie #228, Koldanar #238, septimus #248) 2 Koldanar (Scathach #211, ATPG #225) 2 Normal Phase (KellyCriterion #213, Silver Jan #227) 1 Silver Jan (Red Skeezix #250) 10 no vote (everyone else) ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/267 "2011-07-13T18:15:24Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > In like Flynn. Post before the game. > [@KellyCriterion](#): > > PM received.. Go town! Reading anything into this would be disingenuous. Townies phrase their posts like this all the time. > [@KellyCriterion](#): > > FOS at **choie** for same reason stated as **pedescribe** , and not after I saw **pedescribe’s** post. > > It’s just a **FOS** , so go easy on the bandwagony allegations, peeps.. I generally find Kelly to be a bit FOS-happy. FoS doesn’t do much except say “I’ll be voting for you soon, but I have bigger fish to fry.” It’s sort of odd to point fingers on day one when you could be doing that via vote. What’s a bigger priority than voting for people you want to FOS, when you haven’t voted yet? I don’t see the logic there. But maybe it is Kelly’s style. I don’t know Kelly yet. But although this seems unorthodox to me, it also doesn’t strike me as anything particularly incriminating. Pointing fingers (though preferably with your vote) is a good thing. > [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Half a dozen per game? Shouldn’t be too much of a task to link to some examples, then? There’s nothing here that is anything different from what a townie would say. > [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Clicked a few.. seemed to check out. I agree that must have been somewhat tedious, so I’ll pay the effort if nothing else. > > **UnFOS choie**. > > That sure was a lot of effort just to get me to remove a FOS. I suspect you’ll be one tough competitor if you’re a scum.. but quite the ally if you’re town.. > > Oh, the WIFOM.. 😃 This strikes me as having a fun-loving personality. Nothing unusual here. > [@KellyCriterion](#): > > - I’m a **boy** townie > > So, the votes are a-coming. What can I say. Yeah, that was a bit aggressive the way I demanded **Stanislaus** show some cites for his claim, but I thought that was in keeping with the “everyone is a suspect tone” approach to Day 1. That I was suspicious of **choie** ’s “all the townies” comment prior to reading any post after it, is something I can merely restate as the truth, but can offer nothing more. I wanted to protect myself against “future criticism” with my bandwagony comment, yes. If I hadn’t, I’d have been accused of bandwagoning, which seems like damned if I do, damned if I don’t. > > So, if any of the votes I have attracted so far are from townies, then please reconsider, because I am not scum. > > **vote NormalPhase** , for starting a whole line of mis-reasoning that’s piled votes on someone I know to be town (me). Better not try and protect myself against OMGYS responses, coz pre-empting such criticism is apparently bad (or something). The OMGUS/OMGYS vote: Possible eyebrow furrowing. However, I employ this tactic constantly, because (notoriously) my play is often mistaken for scummy behavior, and that means I am an easy vote for scummy types to lock onto. Therefore, there are often scum on my wagon. I can give you 10 examples without breaking a sweat. Therefore, for me, and lately, OMGYS is a good idea. And if you’re scum, OMGYS works to get rid of those who are voting for you and obviously not your partner. It can be effective either way. To conclude that Kelly is guilty or innocent based on this is a bit of a stretch. However, Kelly is voting for Normal Phase, and Normal Phase is my snuggle bunny. Bad Kelly. > [@KellyCriterion](#): > > What is a handshake, as far as Mafia is concerned? Couldn’t find it listed in this [Mafia glossary](http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Category:Glossary). I have seen examples of scumbags asking innocent sounding questions before. However, innocents do this as well. Conclusions are still elusive. > [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Thanks **special ed,** does that mean mods have been known to change up even the vanilla town PMs? Almost seems to be deliberately avoiding addressing the pressure on him. I would characterize this as possibly deliberate behavior. I don’t know Kelly or how he reacts to pressure though, so this is a more in-general comment. I think people should react to pressure on them, if they have a chance. Not focus solely on it, but they should react. In general, I would find this scummy, or more so over anything else Kelly has done. But on the scummy scale, it still ranks about a 2/10. Nothing earth-shattering. > [@KellyCriterion](#): > > Can you give an example of how a mod might change up the “same” role PM for different players? Still a bit chatty regarding a nothing point. I don’t see how this line of questioning will lead to scums being lynched. Maybe this is for Kelly’s own personal curiosity. I would prefer to see more reaction. However, this is just my preference, and aside from accusing one of his accusers, I haven’t seen a salient point against Kelly that Kelly could refute anyway. So expecting a grand refutation of the case on Kelly seems unrealistic. Everything Kelly has done has been within a range I’d consider normal. Nothing Kelly has done has made me think “Oh, I’d better do what I can to prevent their lynch” or “I’d better make sure this person dies”. In all, I’d suggest that if Kelly is guilty, he’s going down soon anyway, without leaving much of a trace of his guilt. And good for him if so. Or, he’s innocent. It’s day one, again, not much to analyze. That’s why I don’t rely purely on analysis this early. Sometimes you shot-in-the-dark and see who reacts to the pressure, or who reacts to your behavior. I consider that talking aloud to no-one-in-particular thing that septimus did to be far scummier than anything Kelly did. That speaks of fakery. I still need to get to know septimus, but I’ve seen it too often from fake fake fakes in my time to just let it slide, especially for a day one no-one-better situation. Koldanar has been wiggling a bit too. No more than I’d expect, but still wiggling. At least he’s registering a reaction, as are others, which is 90% of the point of voting for him. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/268 "2011-07-13T18:18:05Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > fair enough, of course, I’m a little surprised when you state that the pressure Kelly is under shouldn’t influence reactions from Kelly No, it should, at least at first. But when he’s been the leader this whole time, the initial shock can wear off. If it were me, I’d be cracking jokes and ignoring the whole thing, as scum or town. I’d be more focused on offense than defense. Of the two, Kelly is more focused on OMGUS-ing Normal Phase, which is technically offense. He’s doing absolutely nothing defense-wise. And the pressure is already at maximum, so I don’t think you’re going to see any further “reactions” from Kelly. That’s what I mean when I say that the sort of situation that Kelly is in is unlikely to generate more reactions we can analyze. It’s all been done already. This is all you’re going to get. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/269 "2011-07-13T18:35:05Z")
**Askthepizzaguy** , I’m getting a sense of your defense and we’ve had “stir the pot” type players on these boards before (most notably, IMO, peekercpa). So my suspicion of you is starting to lessen with your explanations. However, I still can’t quite get over this contradiction that **septimus** pointed out earlier. You said: > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > Au contraire. I’ve been known to bandwagon, I just prefer to lead. > > When I am innocent, my accusations have a decent chance of hitting guilty parties. By following someone else’s wagon, I have no idea if they are guilty, and if they are, then the odds are poorer that I’d be wagoning a guilty person, just by virtue of the fact that the evildoers are not as likely to point fingers at their buddies. > > Therefore, I prefer to lead, especially if there’s no strong case on anyone else. > > That’s why I decided to go with Skeezix, since that was my pick and no one else had picked Skeezix. But, I’m not generating much interest in that wagon; therefore I looked at alternatives. I could wagon Kelly, but I’d prefer to spread pressure around. Looking at who others found worthy of a vote, I felt Koldanar might be someone who could generate some interest. Allow me to summarize the problem I see with your explanation: (paraphrasing) 1. I prefer to lead cases as opposed to following others. (OK, no problem). 2. I tried to lead with **Skeezix** , but nothing was happening. (OK, no problem). 3. **Kelly** was getting enough heat, so I wanted to put pressure on someone else. (OK, no problem). 4. So, vote **Koldanar**. (Problem!) If you haven’t figured it out yet, the problem I see is that your actions pretty much directly contradict your words in the same post. If you don’t want to follow others, why did you follow the case against **Koldanar**? To use your own explanation, “[You] have no idea if [people accusing **Koldanar**] are guilty, and if they are, then the odds are poorer that I’d be wagoning a guilty person, just by virtue of the fact that the evildoers are not as likely to point fingers at their buddies.” I’d like to hear your explanation for this. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/270 "2011-07-13T18:42:07Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > I’d like to hear your explanation for this. I’m a big hypocrite. 😃 The sad truth here is that I hadn’t even noticed Koldanar got a vote before I voted him. Others had mentioned suspecting Koldanar, but didn’t vote him. I actually thought I was being the leader. Looking back, Scathach’s vote wasn’t bolded, and I was skimming. Easy to miss. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/271 "2011-07-13T18:44:25Z")
I do see what askthepizzaguy is saying about Septimus. The case had a bit of a rhetorical air to it. I almost always find Septimus scummy, at least at first, but I’ll buy that he’s worth paying attention to. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/272 "2011-07-13T18:45:42Z")
On re-read, it was Normal Phase and the Scath who suspected Koldanar “but didn’t vote him”, and I didn’t even see that Scath actually voted him. Those are the two I was referring to. Bold yer votes people. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/273 "2011-07-13T19:44:00Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Followed by “Defenders of De’endee 3: The Revengening.” It’s been **[done](http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?134731-Askthepizzaguy-Mafia-II-The-Revengening-Concluded)** **[before](http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?134907-Askthepizzaguy-Mafia-II-Summary-and-Information-Thread-Concluded)**. 😃 😃 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/274 "2011-07-13T19:53:36Z")
This is just a quick post to say I am properly in the game again, Daughter and Grandson are fine so time to read in detail. BTW I think I gave Pede a free pass cos I felt sorry for him in the other game, bad play I know but my mind was elsewhere but I am seriuolsy back now. **Unvote Normal Phase** It was a bad vote because it was metagaming and an OMGUS for the FOS. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/275 "2011-07-13T19:56:59Z")
I do have a question to ask but I think it might be anti Town to ask it, do I go ahead and share my thoughts or do I just keep quiet? ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/276 "2011-07-13T20:01:52Z")
If it’s a rules question you can just ask Astral or mahaloth by PM; otherwise, there’s no way for anyone else to answer. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/277 "2011-07-13T20:05:09Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > Maybe after you re-read this, you can do this in red? > > 🙂 Ah, crap. For the record **unvote special ed** Is everyone happy now? 😃 I got sucked into meetings for most of the morning, so I will now try to catch up during lunch. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/278 "2011-07-13T20:05:27Z")
It’s just something that’s bugging me but it could be from a Town power role or Scum! ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/279 "2011-07-13T20:11:31Z")
Scum are more tuned in to power role tells than the town are anyway, all else being equal. But again it’s your judgment. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/280 "2011-07-13T20:21:37Z")
> [@Romanic](#): > > Got my PM. > > Not happy about a level cap, I’m working on a mod to change that. Ok, this is the post that is worrying me, I tried to bring it up earlier but **Romanic** didn’t answer my question, \*\*gnarlychalie \*\* did but I really did know what a level cap meant lol, I wanted more information from \*\*Romanic \*\*and I didn’t get any. I am now in a quandary, I don’t know why either Scum or Town would bring it up? 😕 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=15)