# De'endee Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 6, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052 "2011-07-06T16:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/301 "2011-07-14T01:21:45Z")
I don’t know why you wouldn’t just post the PM in the first place – other than a hypothetical flurry of “oh yeah, that matches mine” responses, what’s to gain? And why would you think that such a flurry of responses would be remotely a good thing for the town? I’m almost glad I’m already voting on other grounds, because this is nearly in the “too blatant to be scummy” category. If you are town, you have a day left; you can still use it, and you should. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/302 "2011-07-14T01:22:13Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > There was obviously much snippage in my previous post I can’t be certain, perhaps a vague memory from when I read the OP, or from my previous Mafia playing experience (1 game, which was I think over a year ago). When I decided I was going to try and flag my towniness to other townies, I wondered if that’s what a “handshake” was. I’d obviously seen the term before, just didn’t know what it was. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/303 "2011-07-14T01:23:15Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > I don’t know why you wouldn’t just post the PM in the first place Because posting the PM reveals the role. Posting the hash-tag does not. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/304 "2011-07-14T01:25:59Z")
There are no roles that belong to a lot of people unknown to each other, save vanillas. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/305 "2011-07-14T01:28:05Z")
Regardless the whole discussion should probably be dropped; it’s both risky, and with the bandwagon on you the way it stands, unnecessarily noise-inducing to boot. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/306 "2011-07-14T01:32:19Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > There are no roles that belong to a lot of people unknown to each other, save vanillas. How do you know this? ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/307 "2011-07-14T01:35:29Z")
I stole a copy of Astral’s notes, obviously. Whatever you’re trying to imply, it’s gone over my head. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/308 "2011-07-14T01:36:18Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > There are no roles that belong to a lot of people unknown to each other, save vanillas. Wait… what? Okay, a question now is glaring at me, and I don’t know if you meant to imply what you just implied. Unfortunately, I can’t think of a way to phrase my question that doesn’t expose something we don’t want exposed to the scum/Lords of Slaughter. Dang, this is a frustrating game! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/309 "2011-07-14T01:41:41Z")
I don’t know, but with you asking about it as well as Kelly, maybe it was somehow unintentionally confusing. What I’m trying to say is: – when he posted the hash tag, Kelly said there should be a number of players in the game who would get the same one – hash tags are unique for a given set of sentences – therefore he’s implying there would be a number of players with the same exact PM as him That only allows him to have been referring to vanillas. Masons typically know each other, and even when they don’t, he implied a larger number than the usual 2 or 3. (And he ultimately didn’t claim mason, anyway.) No other power role comes in large multiples, in any normal game. (And he ultimately didn’t claim power role, anyway.) This is all based off his own premises. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/310 "2011-07-14T01:43:55Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > I stole a copy of Astral’s notes, obviously. > > Whatever you’re trying to imply, it’s gone over my head. So don’t focus on what you think I am implying, just focus on the question: In this game, how do you know “there are no roles that belong to a lot of people unknown to each other, save vanillas”? ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/311 "2011-07-14T01:49:20Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > So don’t focus on what you think I am implying, just focus on the question: > > In this game, how do you know “there are no roles that belong to a lot of people unknown to each other, save vanillas”? I agree with Normal. There really aren’t many instances where there would be a large number of the same role that didn’t know each other except for Vanilla Town. Scum will know each other, even if they all share the same role. masons usually know each other. It’s very rare that we have ‘a lot’ of cops, docs, watchers, etc. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/312 "2011-07-14T02:02:13Z")
I never said there were lots of others sharing my role, all I said was: > [@](#): > > I, uhh.. “strongly suspect” other townies share my role Not a slither of a mention of how many. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/313 "2011-07-14T02:31:47Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > I never said there were lots of others sharing my role, all I said was: > > Not a slither of a mention of how many. Fair enough, let me ask you a question. When you asked that, did you at all consider it likely that there would be other duplicate roles aside from vanilla? ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/314 "2011-07-14T02:52:33Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > Fair enough, let me ask you a question. When you asked that, did you at all consider it likely that there would be other duplicate roles aside from vanilla? I can’t remember thinking how _likely_ it was, but _possible_, yes, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/315 "2011-07-14T03:40:17Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > I didn’t know what a handshake was until less than 24 hours ago, so any specified details in relation to handshakes in the OP is, and was, meaninglessly unmemorable to me. Either the scum are beautifully manipulating this game to get an easy town kill on day 1, or I should stick to playing Nintendo for my gaming fix, coz every move I make as an innocent townie is apparently looking scummy. God only knows what my play would look like if I was intentionally trying to look scummy. > > I don’t really know what moves I have left at this point. Here’s my PM, which the mods have confirmed I can repost: > > Note the last two bullet points have been “switched” compared to the vanilla townie role posted by **Astral**. I thought the mods had “goofed” when I noticed this difference, and I hoped to use this difference as a means to flag my towniness to the other townies. > > After my conversation with **special ed** , I discovered that sometimes the mods “mix up” the same role PM, to “avoid handshakes”. I had no memory of reading in the OP that steps were taken to prevent handshakes. This is obvious from a PM I sent to the mods prior, clearly naive about it: > Astral responded and said I could share such info “If you feel it’s prudent”. Astral then referred me to rule #8: > So.. that’s my case. You’re barking up the wrong tree, townies. I’m town. Plain, old, vanilla-boring town. Lynch elsewhere, please. None of this rings true for me. You heard the term “handshake” somewhere, but you don’t quite remember where. You quiz Ed about it. You notice that your PM did not match the sample in OP. You quiz the mod about it. He points you to rule number 8 in the OP. And somehow you missed rule #13 in the OP? It was a few after rule number 8 and just above the sample PM. [spoiler] > [@](#): > > 1. You may discuss any communications with the moderators. For this game, they’re me (Astral Rejection) and Mahaloth. > > 1. No communication about this game in any manner that has not been previously mod-sanctioned. > > 1. Ties will result in the lynching of both players. > 2. Substitutions will be allowed up to Night 2. Once Night 2 has fallen, no substitutions will be allowed. > 3. You may edit your posts if you wish. > 4. Your moderators have made every effort to confound handshakes. > Sample vanilla PM: > > Class: NPC Townsperson > Alignment: Defenders of De’endee > Role: NPC > Powers: None > Wincondition: You win when all threats to the Defenders of De’endee have been vanquished. [/spoiler] And you thought this handshake attempt was your best defense, in spite of Ed saying that moderators almost always try to prevent handshakes? You obviously put some thought, time, and research into this. It’s a pity you missed rule 13. **Vote: KellyCriterion** ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/316 "2011-07-14T04:25:04Z")
Vote Count KellyCriterion (9): Normal Phase [196], ShadowFacts [203], Stanislaus [204], MentalGuy [217], Choie [247], Silver Jan [285], Scathach [293], special ed [295], TexCat [315] Askthepizzaguy (3): gnarlycharlie [228]. Koldanar [238], Septimus [248] Koldanar (1): Askthepizzaguy [225] Normal Phase (1): KellyCriterion [213], Silver Jan (1): Red Skeezix [233] As always, please check for accuracy. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/317 "2011-07-14T04:29:49Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > 10 examples without breaking a sweat? Shouldn’t be too much of a task to link to some examples, then? > > (I keed, I keed) I’m not really kidding. 10 might be a stretch, but, give me 20 minutes and I’ll pull up the ones that I remember. > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > The issue with your votes is that here it’s generally considered ‘bad form’ to make votes without any sort of justification. Even on Day 1, when “because the voices tell me to” is generally just as good a reason as any else, we like for there to be ‘something’ behind every vote. Your initial vote on \*\*Skeezix \*\*was I think properly viewed as a ‘joke vote’, but your vote on \*\*Koldanar \*\*appeared to have nothing at all to support it, so it was not appreciated. In my foreign land (I have three of them) voting without justification on day one is considered normal… because justifications on day one are usually quite absurd. The silly justifications are sometimes so distracting that they attract votes themselves. I’m not used to your system, and I’ll need to see some examples of “properly” justified votes on day one before I can copycat them. In my minority/outsider opinion, you guys are rigid to the point of being brittle on these points, and I don’t think it serves you well, considering I’ve \*also \*observed you folks as being more serious and thoughtful players on the whole than I’m used to. Good points and bad. > [@Stanislaus](#): > > I don’t think you’ve really addressed ShadowFacts points here. Even if you thought you were the first to actually vote, you were taking your lead in who to vote for from two other players - either of whom, as you’ve acknowledged, might be scum setting up an innocent townie. But not only does this not give you pause, you’ve claimed that their suspicion of Koldanar was a big factor in your choice of him. > > I can see that you’ve got a well-developed theory of scum-hunting, and it’s consistent with your actions so far. But your confidence in Normal and Scathach’s honesty reduces my confidence in you. How worried were you that they were guilty, and you’d be kicking off a wagon on someone innocent? Although I prefer to lead with my vote, the fear of starting a wagon on someone innocent isn’t a paralyzing factor. Furthermore, by placing my vote on Koldanar, this puts the question to those who suggest he’s scummy. Now’s their chance to do something about it, unless they didn’t really find him scummy. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I was just wondering about **Askthepizzaguy** s really long post on defending **Kelly**. I know he was asked what his opinion was but he seemed to go into an awful lot of detail in defending her/him. Wasn’t a defense. Someone asked what I thought of Kelly so far, and I commented on all of his activity to date. I neither found him especially guilty nor exonerated. There are little things I could pick on, but it is day one. And if you ask me questions, I will answer in detail. I’m quite verbose in almost everything I do. > [@pedescribe](#): > > You sound…incredibly familiar. Do I know you from somewhere? Did you play in Spies 7? That’s the only place I think we could have met without knowing it. I play on [forums.totalwar.org/gameroom](http://forums.totalwar.org/gameroom), Civilization Fanatics Forums/Mafia, and [Totalwarcenter.net/Mafia](http://Totalwarcenter.net/Mafia). We have not met unless you’ve played there. > [@](#): > > You seem to be occupying a state of quantum flux–your vote is simultaneously a jokey, pressure vote intended only to generate discussion, and yet also a solid vote based on a bevy of suspicious that add up to a position where no doubt is in your mind. So which is it? Greetings. I’m afraid my personality is causing you confusion. The initial vote placement was to pressure and do something with my vote/generate discussion. After the discussion, and the responses, I picked on some of those responses and decided that Koldanar didn’t do a very good job convincing me that my vote would be better placed elsewhere. I would also vote for Septimus, but I’m not done working Koldanar over, and I’m not going to use my second vote unless I think it’s rather important. > [@](#): > > There’s something else you failed to account for–a vote contains pressure all by itself, even if it is on it’s lonesome and not part of a bandwagon. I disagree, and that’s probably because I usually participate on boards where people rarely respond to single votes. I also think that whatever pressure a single vote contains pales in comparison to being the lynch leader and people questioning and actively accusing you. One is far more effective than the other. Culture clash. > [@](#): > > Players feel compelled to defend votes on themselves, and it seems pressure voting would be less effective, not more, on someone who already has votes (since they were already provoked). Respectfully disagree, I don’t see it that way. Not in my experience. Now, after some time has passed and their fate seems inevitable, then yeah, the pressure will have no effect. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, whether or not others are interested in lynching a player has no bearing on how guilty they are or aren’t. Just like having reasons or not for ones’ vote, or a case to base it off of, has no bearing on the target’s guilt or not. Just like logical fallacy in an argument does not mean someone is wrong. It just means they haven’t argued well. [/tangent] Yet, we insist on having cases, even on day one, where the cases are going to be pretty thin. If I am interested in pressuring someone, it helps to not be alone in pressuring said person. Otherwise they can (and usually do) ignore me. > [@](#): > > No, this is bad reasoning all the way around, even if I rather like the idea of pressure votes. Not that that’s necessarily suspicious, in and of itself. Good, then I will take this as a challenge to put into practice my differing ideas and style of play, and we shall see if your way is more effective than mine. In any case, coming at the scums from two different points of attack is a good idea. I don’t need to see everything your way and vice-versa to work with y’all. 😃 * * * Anyway, I have no idea what Kelly is doing, and I’ll have to read it carefully, only just skimmed to get caught up. But it looks like Kelly has pushed himself over the deep end. I do hope mafia nervousness caused this, but I’m not optimistic. If there’s something I’ve learned in my hundred or so games, it’s that if there is a big blunder going on that results in a ton of votes, it’s usually a townie who is to blame. This is both true in mathematical terms, as there are more townies in general, but also true in the sense I’m implying; mafia tend to be more in control of themselves, and even their failures are adjusted to make lemonade out of lemons. Examples being pointing fingers at their fellow scums, or acting out in a way that makes things more confusing, or coming up with crazy claims. When you’re going to lose a teammate, you try to get compensation for it somehow. Even the loss is calculated. Whatever is going on here, it looks quite not-thought-out. People who have no idea what they’re doing are usually innocent. _That’s it pizza, say things that won’t affect the outcome and others will misinterpret and consider scummy. Stay the course. :smack:_ ---
**Author:** ![gnarlycharlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@gnarlycharlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarlycharlie)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/318 "2011-07-14T05:09:54Z")
**Pizza** , first of all, i hope you don’t mind that i call you that because **ATPG** doesn’t help me associate itself with you and also because i love pizza. 😃 i also like your concept about pressure votes. i’ve seen sites where Day 1 votes don’t really have much justification although i’ve never played in them. personally, in the sites i’ve played in, we do try to have a reason for Day 1 votes. now, i want to give you the benefit of the doubt. however, i surmised based on your behavior that you are an experienced player and would behave the same way whether town or scum. i believe someone who has played with you has pointed this out. so while i still get used to your playing style, i will still consider your vote suspicious. i will admit that i’m worried that Kelly has been lynch leader for quite a while with no serious competition. that gives players from other sites pause as well but from my one experience in the Dope, it doesn’t seem to worry people too much. ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/319 "2011-07-14T05:15:33Z")
I am not going to quote askthepizzaguy but I do agree with his last point. I have been able to read the thread at various times today but not post and this latest move by Kelly just does not seem like something that would come from scum. If scum are not allowed to talk privately during the Day (and I don’t think I have seen this stated one way or the other), then I guess it is in the realm of possibility, but I still think rather unlikely. **Unvote KellyCriterion** I still like Scathach’s case on Koldanar better than any other case made or anything I have been able to spot myself. **Vote Koldanar** Askthepizzaguy, none of us are saying that a Day 1 case is going to meet the same standard as, say, a Day 3 case, but we would like to know why you think the person you are voting is more likely to be scum than the other players. I think most of us just feel that if you are not giving a reason for voting for us, then there is really no need for a response. Your vote on Red Skeezix did not gain any traction because there was nothing really there to respond to. On preview, I see charlie has also replied, but I will just keep this like it is. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/320 "2011-07-14T05:18:52Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > I’m not really kidding. 10 might be a stretch, but, give me 20 minutes and I’ll pull up the ones that I remember. [Spoiler] **Visions of the Animus** [Kagemusha votes me on (essentially) day one](http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?133476-Visions-of-the-Animus-Concluded&p=2053272581&viewfull=1#post2053272581). I have already OMGUS’ed Autolycus. [I OMGUS Kagemusha instead](http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?133476-Visions-of-the-Animus-Concluded&p=2053272582&viewfull=1#post2053272582), because his wagoning smelled fishier than Autolycus’ bad vote. Kagemusha was scum. Nearly got him lynched, too, but folks thought I was scummy. :rolleyes: I was OMGUS-happy in this game because it served me so well in a previous game. **Buffyverse Mafia** Classical\_hero demands that I explain my vote, and [votes for me.](http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?132890-BuffyVerse-Mafia-Apocalypse-Now-Concluded&p=2053268476&viewfull=1#post2053268476) That night, I [murder him](http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?132890-BuffyVerse-Mafia-Apocalypse-Now-Concluded&p=2053269391&viewfull=1#post2053269391) with my crossbow, and say “allow me to explain my bolt.” I was a vigilante, he was a scumbag. Cecil XIX [votes me](http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?132890-BuffyVerse-Mafia-Apocalypse-Now-Concluded&p=2053268809&viewfull=1#post2053268809) for threatening people, something I always do. [I vote Cecil](http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?132890-BuffyVerse-Mafia-Apocalypse-Now-Concluded&p=2053270510&viewfull=1#post2053270510) because, Oh Mah Gawd, Uuuuu suck. [And again](http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?132890-BuffyVerse-Mafia-Apocalypse-Now-Concluded&p=2053271639&viewfull=1#post2053271639), because [Pizzaguys never forget](http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?132890-BuffyVerse-Mafia-Apocalypse-Now-Concluded&p=2053271678&viewfull=1#post2053271678). And he was scum. If memory serves, I went after a whole lot of people who voted for me in that game, and the ones I killed were scum (I killed no townies). The ones I left alive I had alibis for. **Pick your power** Andres [votes me](http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?128900-Pick-your-power-Concluded&p=2516579&viewfull=1#post2516579) after I led the day one lynch on his partner. I follow up on that the next day and [vote him right back.](http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?128900-Pick-your-power-Concluded&p=2518069&viewfull=1#post2518069) He dies, and is [guilty](http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?128900-Pick-your-power-Concluded&p=2518842&viewfull=1#post2518842). **Trouble in Waiting** Woad [votes for me](http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?129140-The-Trouble-in-Waiting-Concluded&p=2524474&viewfull=1#post2524474) on what I think is the critical round. I [return the favor](http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?129140-The-Trouble-in-Waiting-Concluded&p=2524478&viewfull=1#post2524478). Renata [also votes me](http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?129140-The-Trouble-in-Waiting-Concluded&p=2524635&viewfull=1#post2524635). Of those voting for me, I conclude that [Renata is woad’s partner](http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?129140-The-Trouble-in-Waiting-Concluded&p=2524738&viewfull=1#post2524738), and I want them both to die. They were both mafia. **TWC Vanilla game** Rebel Jeb [votes me.](http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=9631980#post9631980) I [return the favor](http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=9643736#post9643736) the next day. And he was [guilty](http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=9648566#post9648566).[/Spoiler]Okay, that’s 7 in the past year, just off the top of my head. I KNOW there were lots more, but I’d have to dig through more games to find them. I was keeping track at one point, I had a streak going where every game I was townie in, some scumbag voted for me and I returned fire. I didn’t always outlive said scumbag, but it burnt them in the butt lots and lots of times. It’s besides the point, but I’ve noted that about myself, I’m irresistible scum bait, because for whatever reason, I seem scummy and scums like voting for people who are scummy who aren’t scum. It serves them so well! > [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > **Pizza** , > > first of all, i hope you don’t mind that i call you that because **ATPG** doesn’t help me associate itself with you and also because i love pizza. 😃 > > i also like your concept about pressure votes. i’ve seen sites where Day 1 votes don’t really have much justification although i’ve never played in them. personally, in the sites i’ve played in, we do try to have a reason for Day 1 votes. now, i want to give you the benefit of the doubt. however, i surmised based on your behavior that you are an experienced player and would behave the same way whether town or scum. i believe someone who has played with you has pointed this out. > > so while i still get used to your playing style, i will still consider your vote suspicious. i will admit that i’m worried that Kelly has been lynch leader for quite a while with no serious competition. that gives players from other sites pause as well but from my one experience in the Dope, it doesn’t seem to worry people too much. Well, here’s the dealio. No one besides Kelly right now has any reason to worry. There’s no reason for the scumbags to make mistakes, or say anything scummy, and, given the lynch is all but decided now, not much reason to keep discussing anything defensive. They can mention how fake someone seems, or illogical, and follow up on future rounds, but for now, they have no motivation to make any errors or defend themselves. As such, unless the scum is Kelly, they’re now on vacation. The additional votes on Kelly aren’t going to make him any deader. But it will make the discussion a lot more so. Never fear, I’m here. I promise I’ll continue to say things and people will go “huh” and say it is scummy/insightful/logical/illogical/annoying. 🆒 While I consider adding more depth to the stated reasons for my votes, I hope folks will consider adding less to already established wagons which will prevail without further votes anyway. I will do as Romanic has suggested in the past and try not to be intentionally scummy. But I make no promises about incidental scumminess. I will do what I must, Obi-wan. And call me Pizza or ATPG or Askthepizzaguy, any of those is fine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=17)