# De'endee Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 6, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052 "2011-07-06T16:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![LightFoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LightFoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LightFoot)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/481 "2011-07-16T23:20:31Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > great, a Scum Janitor? or a no reveal Night Kill? Is there something besides a janitor that would result in a no-reveal? ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/482 "2011-07-16T23:24:07Z")
> [@LightFoot](#): > > Is there something besides a janitor that would result in a no-reveal? sometimes there’s a game mechanic where there is a no reveal. Usually in that case, Town has a power role who can discover the roles and alignment of the dead. The benefit in that case is that the Scum won’t know the role of the dead player either. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/483 "2011-07-17T00:15:34Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > sometimes there’s a game mechanic where there is a no reveal. Usually in that case, Town has a power role who can discover the roles and alignment of the dead. The benefit in that case is that the Scum won’t know the role of the dead player either. Isn’t this something that is typically announced as part of the rules though? I guess being a closed setup means ‘not necessarily’ in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Scathach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Scathach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scathach)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/484 "2011-07-17T01:26:55Z")
\*A ghostly voice says, you mean there wasn’t enough of \ ***her** \*to identify" [ooc] first game of mafia and killed off in the first night. Boo-urns ☹ [/ooc] ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/485 "2011-07-17T02:27:37Z")
Well, I know my memory is not as sharp as it used to be, but I do recall there being a role reveal… sometime in the recent past. Oh yeah, here it is! > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > KellyCriterion, an NPC townsperson and One of the Defenders of De’endee, is dead. Night has fallen, and will last until July 16th at 6pm. All night actions must be submitted before that time. 😉 So, we are either dealing with a game mechanic whereby we get role reveals for lynches but not for night kills, or some kind of power was at work to disguise **Scathach’s** role. (Or some third crazy option I can’t think of). I’ve never heard of anything like that kind of game mechanic and I think “Sadly, there isn’t enough left of him to identify” points to some specific thing happening, so I say the smart money is on option 2. The shitty part of this, of course, is that (possible investigators notwithstanding) we know nothing more right now than we did after **Kelly’s** reveal. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/486 "2011-07-17T02:37:10Z")
And here are all of **Scathach’s** posts from the game (minus two inconsequential ones about level cap - you can look them up if you feel it’s necessary). > [@Scathach](#): > > Putting both votes on the same person seems like a bad idea unless you’re 100% sure they’re scum though. Especially since you can’t change in case of a role claim later. > > This is bit too much meta game for me. What he did previously proves nothing about whether he’s scum in this game. > As an aside - is De’endee a setting in D&D? Or is this a straightdope original? Don’t see anything on google so wondering if there’s anything to be inferred from the flavour? > [@Scathach](#): > > Actually, can anyone see a town benefit to voting twice? We only get to lynch one person anyway so it seems like all it can do is give scum the option of bandwagoning and then claiming they would have changed their vote except they were locked in… > [@Scathach](#): > > Given the mechanics I agree it’s something to be careful with, but we can’t let “I forgot to un vote” be a get out of jail free card. > [@Scathach](#): > > This is just stating things other people have said before. > > And this just screams of weak FOS’s thrown around for the sake of it. Calling out the “Being the third on a bandwagon” thing and then limply backing down on it in case it draws too much attention? Two posts that look like they were just made for the sake of posting something. > > Unvote > Vote Koldanar > [@Scathach](#): > > Why does there have to be an alternative? You haven’t actually said you disagree with the “kellywagon” (love that phrase btw). You just wanted not to be on a bandwagon. Why? > [@Scathach](#): > > The very first post in the thread from Astral says that the mods have made every effort to prevent handshakes. > > I think a town player trying to do a handshake would check the mods posts to see if it was possible. I think a scum player would fake it and then claim they didn’t see that rule in the hopes that other players would assume good intent. > > \*\* unvote koldanar > vote kellycriterion \*\* > > Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk > [@Scathach](#): > > Are you or aren’t you? > [@Scathach](#): > > Sorry I really should have been more clear. If she is properly claiming Vanilla town then surely she should have something to say about \*\* Kellys\*\* role pm claim. Either her’s matches or doesn’t but I find it odd she’s not saying either way. > [@Scathach](#): > > Honestly I believe this is time wasting right now. If I haven’t screwed up the time zones again there’s only a few hours left in the day. There’s a clear vote leader at the moment with one or two other possible candidates. We should be focusing on lynching the right person rather than another long discussion about when and when not to use both votes. > [@Scathach](#): > > Is your role PM the same as **KellyCriterions** or not? > [@Scathach](#): > > It is when locked votes aren’t going to matter a damn since the day will end in an hour or two anyway. > [@Scathach](#): > > Sorry, 3 hours according to the countdown timer you posted earlier. > [@Scathach](#): > > It’s referring to D&D NPC’s. > [Non-player character - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-player_character) > [@Scathach](#): > > And since we have two votes before they lock. I’m going to > > \*\* vote Koldanar > \*\* > For the same reasons I laid out earlier. > [@Scathach](#): > > But your class is different to the vanilla role pm, instead of NPC Townsperson, it’s mage. > [@Scathach](#): > > I’m not quite sure what to make of it either. It might be just meaningless flavour added to prevent handshakes. Or it might not. I’m finding it reasonably unlikely that she made it up if her unfamiliarity with D&D is true. Haven’t actually read through them yet, but here they are. ---
**Author:** ![gnarlycharlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@gnarlycharlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarlycharlie)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/487 "2011-07-17T02:54:04Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Well, I know my memory is not as sharp as it used to be, but I do recall there being a role reveal… sometime in the recent past. Oh yeah, here it is! > > 😉 > > So, we are either dealing with a game mechanic whereby we get role reveals for lynches but not for night kills, or some kind of power was at work to disguise **Scathach’s** role. (Or some third crazy option I can’t think of). I’ve never heard of anything like that kind of game mechanic and I think “Sadly, there isn’t enough left of him to identify” points to some specific thing happening, so I say the smart money is on option 2. > > The shitty part of this, of course, is that (possible investigators notwithstanding) we know nothing more right now than we did after **Kelly’s** reveal. i agree that there is some power at work. i would think, no, i would hope that scum doesn’t know the role either. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/488 "2011-07-17T03:57:02Z")
**Vote: Septimus** To follow up on yesterday’s suspicion. Regardless of formality of wording, I felt that Septimus’ suspicion on me was less than genuine. His accusation of me seemed far too certain for someone who supposedly knows nothing. Innocents may have suspicion but rarely do they think they’ve caught a scumbag for sure on day one just based the posts of someone they haven’t played with before. Unless Septimus is brand new to these sorts of games, that behavior struck me as illegitimate and fake. It doesn’t follow from an experienced player. I am still not sure about Koldanar and may vote for him if necessary, or if the Septimus vote does nothing. I am willing to consider a third alternative, but I will need time to observe the happenings of this round and re-read the previous one. Request to all: Please do not form large wagons without strong reason. Let the leader be up by 2-3 votes at most. Handicapping ourselves by limiting our options is unwise and unjustifiable. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/489 "2011-07-17T11:07:53Z")
Nothing in 8 hours? Fine, I’ll continue. The thing with the experience points and such, encourages wagoning. Wagoning for no reason is inherently and demonstrably bad. However, this is one of those magical “we can have our cake and eat it too” moments. The phases here are longer than I’m used to. We can pressure vote, discuss, have everyone weigh in, and once they do, we can all wagon the leader and any power roles needing experience can get such experience without it ruining the rest of the round. Effectively, we decide who dies before the round is over, and spend the last 12-24 hours or so locking in nearly unanimous votes. **That’s a workable compromise.** Plz read this post. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/490 "2011-07-17T11:33:47Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > The shitty part of this, of course, is that (possible investigators notwithstanding) we know nothing more right now than we did after **Kelly’s** reveal. This is not true. The default (and I think strong) assumption is that scathach was a mafia kill. He was one of those who doubted Jan’s PM (enough potential motive for a mafia kill right there), and he was playing in a townie fashion (enough reason to think it was not a vig). He was also after Koldanar pretty hard, one of my own suspects, so I consider another potential mafia motive there despite that it is purely speculative. But the first two reasons should be enough for anyone to assign scathach as probable non-scum, barring contradictory evidence being presented. Something about this post of yours, and in particular this part, feels too facile, Shadowfacts, as if it’s analysis based on what you perceive to be the objective data at hand, but haven’t truly thought about, since you already know the answer. It’s thin, but it’s there. I’ll look at you more on Monday. **vote: ShadowFacts** On Septimus – “sleeping on it” overnight, that “hey lie detector” bit I complained about, while pointless, is in fact a rather good approximation of the scummy-townie Septimus I know and love. So he’s sidling back to neutral for me. Koldanar I’m not sure, need to look at him too. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/491 "2011-07-17T14:10:10Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > Nothing in 8 hours? Fine, I’ll continue. > The thing with the experience points and such, encourages wagoning. Wagoning for no reason is inherently and demonstrably bad. > > However, this is one of those magical “we can have our cake and eat it too” moments. The phases here are longer than I’m used to. We can pressure vote, discuss, have everyone weigh in, and once they do, we can all wagon the leader and any power roles needing experience can get such experience without it ruining the rest of the round. Effectively, we decide who dies before the round is over, and spend the last 12-24 hours or so locking in nearly unanimous votes. > > **That’s a workable compromise.** > > Plz read this post. Did you skim half of Day 1? This was discussed at length and deemed unworkable for a variety of reasons. ---
**Author:** ![LightFoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LightFoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LightFoot)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/492 "2011-07-17T16:24:49Z")
I’ve pondered long and a decision I have arrived at. I think it wize to share with my fellow townspeople that you have a seer amongst you. I have the ability to ferret out the Lords of Slaughter. Given this decision to reveal I must ask, nay beg, the good medic to protect me whilst I search for my vulnerability is now very high Last Night I found a champion for Good and I will reveal them not. (If the group mistakenly attempts to lynch one I know is true I will reveal) When I find an evil doer I will make that knowledge public. Whilst I live I will dedicate my abilities to the greater good. If/when our blessed medic meets his/her demise I will share all. - And you thought you had a problem understanding me when I talked regular \* ---
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/493 "2011-07-17T16:51:39Z")
The odd thing to me about Scathach’s death is that his alignment was not revealed. This makes me believe that we probably have third parties amongst us. If there were only scum and townies, then why bother hiding alignment? This is particularly true if we assume that Scathach was the scum kill. I’m thinking he might be a third party kill. It might make more sense for a third party to have a janitor. I didn’t see anything in the OP about third parties, but the sample win condition “_all_ threats to the Defenders of De’endee” leaves the possibility open. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/494 "2011-07-17T17:05:33Z")
Lightfoot, it sort of looks like you’ve forgotten about scum roleblockers and the like. ---
**Author:** ![LightFoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LightFoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LightFoot)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/495 "2011-07-17T17:13:28Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Lightfoot, it sort of looks like you’ve forgotten about scum roleblockers and the like. I didn’t forget. It is a risk I took. I did ponder the decision until now. If we have such I will know toNight I wager and then so will all of you ---
**Author:** ![gnarlycharlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@gnarlycharlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarlycharlie)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/496 "2011-07-17T17:20:18Z")
> [@LightFoot](#): > > I’ve pondered long and a decision I have arrived at. I think it wize to share with my fellow townspeople that you have a seer amongst you. I have the ability to ferret out the Lords of Slaughter. Given this decision to reveal I must ask, nay beg, the good medic to protect me whilst I search for my vulnerability is now very high > > Last Night I found a champion for Good and I will reveal them not. (If the group mistakenly attempts to lynch one I know is true I will reveal) > When I find an evil doer I will make that knowledge public. > Whilst I live I will dedicate my abilities to the greater good. If/when our blessed medic meets his/her demise I will share all. > > - And you thought you had a problem understanding me when I talked regular \* assuming you are a seer (cop), what makes you think there’s a medic (doc)? it’s a closed setup. IIRC, the past two games here didn’t have a doc. scum could also have a strongman, nullifying any protection. whatever the truth is, you’ve just painted a nice big target on yourself. > [@TexCat](#): > > The odd thing to me about Scathach’s death is that his alignment was not revealed. This makes me believe that we probably have third parties amongst us. If there were only scum and townies, then why bother hiding alignment? This is particularly true if we assume that Scathach was the scum kill. I’m thinking he might be a third party kill. It might make more sense for a third party to have a janitor. > > I didn’t see anything in the OP about third parties, but the sample win condition “_all_ threats to the Defenders of De’endee” leaves the possibility open. the only janitor roles i’ve seen were scum. it would make sense too. even if they deprive themselves of info, they also do that for town and town needs as much info as possible. ---
**Author:** ![LightFoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LightFoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LightFoot)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/497 "2011-07-17T17:55:43Z")
**@ gnarlycharlie** It was a calculated risk. (I’ve never had this role before –and lived through D1- so I did what I did) I didn’t consider there not being a Doc but it’s out there now. C’est la……………………. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/498 "2011-07-17T18:03:02Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > **Vote: Septimus** > > To follow up on yesterday’s suspicion. Regardless of formality of wording, I felt that Septimus’ suspicion on me was less than genuine. His accusation of me seemed far too certain for someone who supposedly knows nothing. Innocents may have suspicion but rarely do they think they’ve caught a scumbag for sure on day one just based the posts of someone they haven’t played with before. > > Unless Septimus is brand new to these sorts of games, that behavior struck me as illegitimate and fake. It doesn’t follow from an experienced player. > > I am still not sure about Koldanar and may vote for him if necessary, or if the Septimus vote does nothing. I am willing to consider a third alternative, but I will need time to observe the happenings of this round and re-read the previous one. > > Request to all: Please do not form large wagons without strong reason. Let the leader be up by 2-3 votes at most. Handicapping ourselves by limiting our options is unwise and unjustifiable. I’m also going to make a request to all: when referring to previous cases from previous Days that you are following up on, please \*\*quote \*\*or \*\*link \*\*to the posts in question. \*\*ATPG \*\*does a summation (and expansion) of his thoughts from yesterDay, but without context, it’s not compelling. Yes, I could (and may still) go back and check it out, but I believe it is incumbent on the person making the case to show me all the evidence and convince me. It’s the pro-Town thing to do, and I think you in advance. 🙂 **ATPG** , in this post, your case against \*\*septimus \*\*seems particularly vague - it’s all about his wording and level of certainty. If you want to convince me or anyone to vote for **septimus** , I suggest you tell us exactly what he said that tipped your scum-meter. You know, with quotes and stuff. If you’ve already done this, that’s cool, just link us to it. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/499 "2011-07-17T18:12:19Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > This is not true. The default (and I think strong) assumption is that scathach was a mafia kill. He was one of those who doubted Jan’s PM (enough potential motive for a mafia kill right there), and he was playing in a townie fashion (enough reason to think it was not a vig). He was also after Koldanar pretty hard, one of my own suspects, so I consider another potential mafia motive there despite that it is purely speculative. But the first two reasons should be enough for anyone to assign scathach as probable non-scum, barring contradictory evidence being presented. > > Something about this post of yours, and in particular this part, feels too facile, Shadowfacts, as if it’s analysis based on what you perceive to be the objective data at hand, but haven’t truly thought about, since you already know the answer. It’s thin, but it’s there. I’ll look at you more on Monday. > > **vote: ShadowFacts** I agree with you that the strong assumption is that \*\*scathach \*\*was a mafia kill and was thus a townie. I am proceeding on that assumption for now. That said, I don’t \*know \*any of that, so I believe my original statement was true, even if it was just a toss off comment. I hardly think it merits a vote, but YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/500 "2011-07-17T18:24:08Z")
> [@LightFoot](#): > > Last Night I found a champion for Good and I will reveal them not. (If the group mistakenly attempts to lynch one I know is true I will reveal) I’m trying to figure out the rationale for not revealing your info. Since you already revealed yourself, why not reveal your results? Obviously, I can see reason not to reveal a particular role, but I’m not seeing any reason not to reveal alignment. What’s the downside? (And let me say “reveal” one more time, because five was not enough.) :smack: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=26)