# De'endee Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 6, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052 "2011-07-06T16:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![LightFoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LightFoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LightFoot)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/621 "2011-07-20T01:58:18Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > As \*\*Stickler \*\*was saying, this is call a [Paranoid Doc](http://wikiguides.neoseeker.com/wiki/The_Mafia_Game/Roles#Paranoid_Doctor). Wonderfull. I didn’t make the connection right away ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/622 "2011-07-20T02:01:03Z")
> [@LightFoot](#): > > Wonderfull. I didn’t make the connection right away I’ve not been in a game with one, but the usefulness is still clear. If it prevents even one death in any given evening in the whole of the game, that’s far, far better than a vanilla townie. And, um… could be used to stop scumbags from acting. It’s like a roleblocker except even more useful. It could be protective or obstructive, whichever one is better. If such a doctor exists, they could protect you or try to block the scums from harming someone else. All they need to do is guess correctly as to who is scum, or guess correctly as to when you’re going to be attacked. I could even see a paranoid doc as being more useful than a standard doc, if used correctly. ---
**Author:** ![LightFoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LightFoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LightFoot)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/623 "2011-07-20T02:05:03Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > By that same measure, isn’t anyone who is Town, even if they assume the Night Kill as done by the Scum, also going to have to assume that it’s possible that the victim was 3rd party? Just wandering in my mind…either could be valid. But as me my first thought wandered the direction I stated to take a closer look ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/624 "2011-07-20T02:07:46Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > I’ve not been in a game with one, but the usefulness is still clear. If it prevents even one death in any given evening in the whole of the game, that’s far, far better than a vanilla townie. > > And, um… could be used to stop scumbags from acting. It’s like a roleblocker except even more useful. It could be protective or obstructive, whichever one is better. > > If such a doctor exists, they could protect you or try to block the scums from harming someone else. All they need to do is guess correctly as to who is scum, or guess correctly as to when you’re going to be attacked. > > I could even see a paranoid doc as being more useful than a standard doc, if used correctly. Yes, they are multi purpose tools. The drawback is protecting an investigative type. No drawback to protecting masons and/or Townies confirmed via investigation (and sometimes even themselves) ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/625 "2011-07-20T02:17:53Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > Yes, they are multi purpose tools. The drawback is protecting an investigative type. No drawback to protecting masons and/or Townies confirmed via investigation (and sometimes even themselves) I’d argue that protecting the investigative type early on in the game will keep that investigator alive longer into the game, thus increasing their chances of investigating a scum later in the game when the paranoid doctor dies or decides to allow the investigator to scan. The scums have the hard part of guessing whether or not to try to murder the investigator now, later, sometime in the middle… and every time they guess wrong, that’s one less dead innocent. To me it seems clear, even if it costs us investigations now, protect the scanner. That will force the scumbags to either try to murder the scanner and fail (good for us) or move their murders elsewhere, giving the doctor reason to keep his protection or move it elsewhere. If the doctor guesses correctly, all the scanner has to do is keep scanning every night. On the nights of no doc protection, scan result. It’s inconvenient, but far better, than a dead investigator. And even if the detective is rendered no more useful than a vanilla townie, that’s a vanilla townie we trust and don’t lynch. Higher chance of hitting scums by default. * * * Also, lynch me if you’re not sure on Silver Jan. It’s not going to hurt my feelings guys. I have certainly given you reasons to, and I can certainly apologize for not being clearer and more concise (or more consistent). If there’s going to be nagging doubts about me due to my strangeness, you’re just going to want to lynch me later. Later rounds, the odds are higher on random chance to kill scum, and I know I’m not one. Therefore, if I’ve already rendered myself too screwy to be listened to, my input isn’t going to help anyway. Spare yourself a headache later. I’ll still play in future games. ---
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/626 "2011-07-20T02:31:20Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Waitaminute, hold on a sec. I don’t think I’ve made a single OMGUS vote. The first person to vote for me right outta the gate was **pedescribe** , which I certainly didn’t reciprocate. I believe the only other person to vote for me was **Silver Jan** , and she did that _after_ I voted for her. > > The only people I’ve voted for have been: > > **KellyCriterion** , because of his (IMHO) aggressive demands for cites that he then proceeded to dismiss; this seemed unhelpful to Town and just generally icky. Probably my least rationalized vote, but I’m a gut-player. > > **Silver Jan** , for reasons I’ve been over. > > **Normal Phase** , for reasons I’ve been over. > > None of the above voted for me before I voted for them, I don’t think. Well, **Kelly** did give me a FOS, but I didn’t vote for him 'cause of that (and indeed I didn’t vote for him until some time later, after the “cite” incident). > > In short, call me scum if you must, but do _not_ tar me with the OMGUS brush. 🙂 I stand corrected. In fact, I remember your reluctance to vote for Kelly after he FOS’d you. You are not a OMGUS voter, you are a OMGUS votee, one of Silver Jan’s many. Sorry that I lumped you in with the OMGUS voters. ```auto I think I may have been the first one to mention 3rd parties. LightFoot, I'm not sure I understand what you are looking at/for? ``` ---
**Author:** ![LightFoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LightFoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LightFoot)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/627 "2011-07-20T02:40:20Z")
> [@TexCat](#): > > I stand corrected. In fact, I remember your reluctance to vote for Kelly after he FOS’d you. You are not a OMGUS voter, you are a OMGUS votee, one of Silver Jan’s many. Sorry that I lumped you in with the OMGUS voters. > > ```auto > > I think I may have been the first one to mention 3rd parties. LightFoot, I'm not sure I understand what you are looking at/for? > > ``` Ass/u/ming my first flash of brains is correct Scum would be scrambling wondering why their kill was mangled beyond recognition if they didn’t do it. It is not uncommon for Scum to slip a possible solution to one of their confusions… I could be wrong of course but I was sharing MY thought ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/628 "2011-07-20T03:00:36Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > Also, lynch me if you’re not sure on Silver Jan. It’s not going to hurt my feelings guys. I have certainly given you reasons to, and I can certainly apologize for not being clearer and more concise (or more consistent). Can’t argue with that,\* for obvious reasons\*: **vote Askthepizzaguy** > [@LightFoot](#): > > Ass/u/ming my first flash of brains is correct Scum would be scrambling wondering why their kill was mangled beyond recognition if they didn’t do it. It is not uncommon for Scum to slip a possible solution to one of their confusions… I could be wrong of course but I was sharing MY thought Wait, what? Why would scum be wondering about their kill if they didn’t do what? Either it’s their kill and they know it, or it was not their kill and they know it. Scum certainly know who they targeted for lynch. Whether that was Scathach or not remains to be seen. Certainly possible they got blocked and a third party and/or vigilante’s kill made it through. I’m not making any assumptions at this point other than to keep all possibilities in mind. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/629 "2011-07-20T03:04:44Z")
So since the vote leader is either myself or Silver Jan presently, let’s take a closer look at Silver and see if you think either myself or Silver is worth killing. Here are all of Silver Jan’s posts to-date, unmolested by my commentary. I’ll offer my best opinion on Jan in a separate post. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I would love to know what you mean by a level cap. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > To vote or not to vote, that is the question! > > @ **Choie** yes **Pedescribe** was **Trepa** over there. > > Day 1 does seem to be a wild guess or someone misspeaking. I see \*\*Red Skeezix \*\*came back as Red, how frustrating 😃 > > I thought **Pedescribe** ’s vote on **Choie** was a bit scummy but now he has unvoted her so that’s that. > > I feel that if I am allowed 2 votes that I should have the right to excercise them both, I don’t know if I will of course. If players decide that no one should use their 2nd vote then what happens if someone makes a mistake and forgets to unvote before voting again, should they automatically be assumed to be scum? I think the 2nd vote should be used at our discretion. It has happened that a player has forgotten to unvote. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Well, it looks as if I have pinged **Normal Phase** already, was that a FOS? > > I am definitly Town in this game so all Normal has on me really is from metagaming (where I was scum) so > > **Vote Normal Phase** > > It might be an OMGUS vote but in the last game (metagaming) I was too scared to vote for her because then she would have known for sure that I was scum. This is also to get a vote in so that I have a voting record whether I am right or wrong. > > I must admit I haven’t read everything as carefully as I should because I became a Grandmother yesterday 🙂 > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > This is just a quick post to say I am properly in the game again, Daughter and Grandson are fine so time to read in detail. > > BTW I think I gave Pede a free pass cos I felt sorry for him in the other game, bad play I know but my mind was elsewhere but I am seriuolsy back now. > > **Unvote Normal Phase** > > It was a bad vote because it was metagaming and an OMGUS for the FOS. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I do have a question to ask but I think it might be anti Town to ask it, do I go ahead and share my thoughts or do I just keep quiet? > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > It’s just something that’s bugging me but it could be from a Town power role or Scum! > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Ok, this is the post that is worrying me, I tried to bring it up earlier but **Romanic** didn’t answer my question, \*\*gnarlychalie > \*\* did but I really did know what a level cap meant lol, I wanted more information from \*\*Romanic \*\*and I didn’t get any. I am now in a quandary, I don’t know why either Scum or Town would bring it up? 😕 > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Thanks **Normal** , it has just been at the back of my mind since I first read it 🙂 > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I was just wondering about **Askthepizzaguy** s really long post on defending **Kelly**. I know he was asked what his opinion was but he seemed to go into an awful lot of detail in defending her/him. > > I was about to vote for **Kelly** because 20 minutes after receiving a vote s/he asked about handshakes. If that had been me I would have jumped up and down defending myself (check the Giraffe boards, I was in tears cos I was called scum{silly too}) > > I wonder if \*\*ATPG \*\*is just being contraversial. > > That being said > > **Vote KellyCriterion** > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I am still new and it is important, I know I have one vote against me that was because I did not explain properly. I find it difficult to explain what I really mean (and this is a game of words?) When I have played scum I dream about the game, specially when Normal was after me (she is good), Special Ed, yourself doesn’t terrify me anymore although Moody does, what’s up with him in this game, what am I missing? > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > The fact that he isn’t in this game perhaps 🙂 > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I have played in a game where scum could only talk at night, don’t ask which one because I can’t remember at the moment. > > I am very unsure about my vote on \*\*Kelly \*\*at the moment. He is doing almost the same thing I have done in a different game, assuming other VT’s would understand him. > > Oh, what to do, really if I am not happy with my vote now then I should unvote. > > **Unvote KellyCriterion** > > @ **Romanic** , I have nothing against jokes but as I said before you must be either Scum or a Town Power role, why would you reveal that information so early? And now you have said that you can get to level 5 in this game. I think that if you are scum, you made a tiny mistake and if you are Town then you made a bigger mistake, either way I find it anti-Town. > > **Vote Romanic** > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > @ **Romanic** I meant you in the generic sense, not you in particular. Sorry, I could have made that more clear. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Oh, **Askthepizzaguy** reminds me of Calvin! > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I unvoted **Kelly** after he posted his PM. **Romanic** pinged me because I didn’t get a level up thing in my PM. I suppose I am claiming Vanilla Town and once again I am not happy with my vote. > > **Unvote Romanic** > > This is because of his discusions about when Scum could chat. I know this could be scum trying to not be scummy but it doesn’t feel like it. > > I don’t do well at analizing everything people say and I tend to vote on a gut feel rather than hard facts. I have been known to find Scum. I can see why I set **Normals** teeth on edge. > > Now I don’t know who to vote for 😕 > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Huh!! > > Well if that’s what you think > > **Vote Pedescribe** > > I know it’s not going to be seen as a good vote, sorry about your teeth **Normal** but I really haven’t got a scummy vibe from anyone and I do want to live and I am Vanilla Town with no Power. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > well this is it > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Maybe I am a bit thick but I would love to know what NPC means > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > So why was that in my PM as I am obviously plaing? > playing > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I didn’t think it didn’t match K **elly’s** and thats why I unvoted, I believe what he’s saying. > > Wouldn’t it be good if he told us which sex he was? > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Sorry, gender! > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Intersting 🙂 so I am controlled by the dungeon Master, thanks 🙂 > > I still don’t know if who I voted for is right but I am a little Townie. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I have to place a vote before 1am so I think I will go with > > **Vote Koldanar** > > I can’t make a case so if you vote me off it will be a little VT. > > I hope Town knows this and doesn’t vote for me cos we need lots of secret VT’s so Scum don’t kill power roles > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I played D&D 24 years ago, My name ws Silver. I haven’t played since 🙂 > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I am just Vanilla Town with nothng to level up to, that’s why Romanic pinged me. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Sorry > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I must be so bad at this game 🙂 as scum I survived So we aren’t really looking for scum, well never mind, when I am MISLYNCHED you will know I am Town does Town really want to mislynch me? apparentl so, you will have to live with it. So we really aren’t looking for scum just some silly little Grandma that sometimes “feels” scum If I am voted off you need too look towards yourselves. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > What can I say! I am Town, just a Vanilla Town, I pose no threats to the bad peeps. "cept for my vote 🙂 > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > No, I thought I was 🙂 the lynch leader that is > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > So **SP** , is that another FOS? I am Town! > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Sorry, I don’t think I can make EOD, I would love to cos I want to defend myself but 1am is far too late, I have done my best and if you get rid of me, well I am only a VT. Scum, do your best (worst) cos you will be found out. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I am dying to say “Bah” at \*\*Ed > \*\* it makes you feel as if you don’t count, well you do and your theories Do count :Bah at **ED** > > I said I am not scared of you anymore **Ed** says she shivering in her boots 🙂 > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Thanks **Ed** , Sheesh i wish I could stay awake but I can’t ☹ So night night all > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > @ **choie** , I think that if both **Normal** and I were both scum she would have stayed as far away from me as possible. I don’t know if **Normal** is scum or not but **I** am not. I rather like your theory that I could be a scum power role, but your theory is wrong! > > Why is everyone locking in their votes today?? Has me a bit confused as this was discussed at lenght on D1 > > **Vote choie** > > For unsound reasoning > > **Normal** could still be scum though so I suppose this is a FOS but I don’t want to lock myself in just yet. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Actually, it was your votes on BOTH Normal and me that didn’t sit well, if you had voted for either of us, fair enough but to vote for both of us looked scummy. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I didn’t post yesterday because of a power failure, so no, I am not laying low. > > **choie** was feeling guilty for placing a vote on D1 and D2 she quite merrily places a vote on 2 people. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > @ **ShadowFacts** I have already said that I am Vanilla Town and that’s why the level cap thing worried me, there was nothing about levels or caps in my PM. I am sorry that my playing style isn’t up to your expectations but that’s the way I play. > > I don’t always place a vote on people that have voted for me but I just didn’t like the whole case. Your case is almost as bad, just because I moved my vote a lot is cos I am Town with no powers and I was very uncertain who to vote for, and yes I am now being defensive. I was right about Kelly though and you even said you didn’t remove your vote even though you had doubts about her being scum, why not, just because it was late in the day. If you removed your vote you could have got other people thinking that maybe they were wrong too! But no, you just kept your vote there and don’t seem particularly worried about it. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I have heard this kind of chat in a previous game ie I DEMAND, now if this is the same person then he could be doing it to wind everyone up and he is, in fact Town and giving scum an easy target for their votes. I am not totally sure of this of course but I have seen this type of play before and so has everyone that played the game on FB. I would not feel comfortable putting my vote there. > > I do have a problem playing this game because I inherently think everyone is honest when I should think everyone is lying, this makes it difficult for me to make a case against anyone and I tend to go with a gut feel. > > I also think that **scathach** was Town because scum does not miss a chance of a NK and what would the chance be of a doc (if we have one) protecting the target that scum would go after? I think it “must” have been a scum NK and a scum janitor cleaned up. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > @ **choie** , I might not be a neophyte but I am sweet (usually) and flaky 🙂 > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Oops, sorry I misread that. ---
**Author:** ![LightFoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LightFoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LightFoot)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/630 "2011-07-20T03:12:57Z")
> [@USCDiver](#): > > Can’t argue with that,\* for obvious reasons\*: > > \*\*vote Askthepizzaguy > > Wait, what? Why would scum be wondering about their kill if they didn’t do what? Either it’s their kill and they know it, or it was not their kill and they know it. Scum certainly know who they targeted for lynch. Whether that was Scathach or not remains to be seen. Certainly possible they got blocked and a third party and/or vigilante’s kill made it through. I’m not making any assumptions at this point other than to keep all possibilities in mind. - If they don’t have a power to mangle a victim - If it’s not their kill they will be looking at a 3rd party possibility - This early a successful block is not impossible but unlikely in my mind - I was sharing a possible scenario ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/631 "2011-07-20T03:33:14Z")
\*\*Septimus(2): Askthepizzaguy, Askthepizzaguy, ShadowFacts(2): Normal, Redskeezix Gnarly(2): Mentalguy, Normal Koldanar(2): Mentalguy, Lightfoot Normal(2): Specialed, Choie Askthepizzaguy(5):, Pedescribe, Pedescribe, Septimus, Weedy, USCDiver Silver Jan(5): Choie, Shadowfacts, Specialed, Suburban, Redskeezix, Innerstickler, Choie(1): SilverJan, Suburban Silverjan is on the chopping block currently. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/632 "2011-07-20T03:37:03Z")
And here are my thoughts. CAUTION, this is in spoilers and I’ll be using blue, red, or black to indicate my leanings. These are not votes, obviously. Blue = Normal indicator of townie-ness Black = Not an indicator IMO, or neutral comment Red = I find this comment odd/suspect [spoiler] > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I would love to know what you mean by a level cap. **This is possible because NPC’s do not have levels in our role PMs.** > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > To vote or not to vote, that is the question! > > @ **Choie** yes **Pedescribe** was **Trepa** over there. > > Day 1 does seem to be a wild guess or someone misspeaking. I see \*\*Red Skeezix \*\*came back as Red, how frustrating 😃 > > I thought **Pedescribe** ’s vote on **Choie** was a bit scummy but now he has unvoted her so that’s that. > > I feel that if I am allowed 2 votes that I should have the right to excercise them both, I don’t know if I will of course. If players decide that no one should use their 2nd vote then what happens if someone makes a mistake and forgets to unvote before voting again, should they automatically be assumed to be scum? I think the 2nd vote should be used at our discretion. It has happened that a player has forgotten to unvote. This could be interpreted as laying the ground argument for a consistent stance on voting twice, as I feel that scum would prefer to do throughout the game IF they can get away with it. **But, unless I see otherwise, this comment alone doesn’t indicate either way.** > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Well, it looks as if I have pinged **Normal Phase** already, was that a FOS? > > I am definitly Town in this game so all Normal has on me really is from metagaming (where I was scum) so > > **Vote Normal Phase** > > It might be an OMGUS vote but in the last game (metagaming) I was too scared to vote for her because then she would have known for sure that I was scum. This is also to get a vote in so that I have a voting record whether I am right or wrong. > > I must admit I haven’t read everything as carefully as I should because I became a Grandmother yesterday 🙂 **I note this begins a pattern of Jan stating, for the record, that Jan is a townie.** Personality or nervous twitch? I dunno her, so I don’t know. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > This is just a quick post to say I am properly in the game again, Daughter and Grandson are fine so time to read in detail. > > BTW I think I gave Pede a free pass cos I felt sorry for him in the other game, bad play I know but my mind was elsewhere but I am seriuolsy back now. > > **Unvote Normal Phase** > > It was a bad vote because it was metagaming and an OMGUS for the FOS. **It’s not at all uncommon for people to place votes early in the game and change their mind, as forming a strong opinion so early when you know nothing is actually more unusual.** Only us cocky jerkbags can do that. 😛 > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I do have a question to ask but I think it might be anti Town to ask it, do I go ahead and share my thoughts or do I just keep quiet? > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > It’s just something that’s bugging me but it could be from a Town power role or Scum! > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Ok, this is the post that is worrying me, I tried to bring it up earlier but **Romanic** didn’t answer my question, \*\*gnarlychalie > \*\* did but I really did know what a level cap meant lol, I wanted more information from \*\*Romanic \*\*and I didn’t get any. I am now in a quandary, I don’t know why either Scum or Town would bring it up? 😕 **To me this seems like normal townie behavior. I’m sorry, this does not feel like acting to me.** Read it and judge for yourself. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Thanks **Normal** , it has just been at the back of my mind since I first read it 🙂 > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I was just wondering about **Askthepizzaguy** s really long post on defending **Kelly**. I know he was asked what his opinion was but he seemed to go into an awful lot of detail in defending her/him. > > I was about to vote for **Kelly** because 20 minutes after receiving a vote s/he asked about handshakes. If that had been me I would have jumped up and down defending myself (check the Giraffe boards, I was in tears cos I was called scum{silly too}) > > I wonder if \*\*ATPG \*\*is just being contraversial. > > That being said > > **Vote KellyCriterion** Welcome to how I analyze people, Silver Jan. I consider everything a person says and in-context as much as possible. Now it’s you. I’m not defending you so much as forming an opinion, as much as it may be worth. **I think it’s nifty you’re breaking with the others to give me the benefit of the doubt, though.** Of the two main scumtells I notice in the “reaction” column, there’s haste to destroy me, and then there’s supporting me because you know I’m townie and it will improve my opinion of you and make you look good when I die and you’re correct. If it’s an unusual or “certain”-level of support, then yeah, it’s scummy. We’ll see if this becomes a trend or not. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I am still new and it is important, I know I have one vote against me that was because I did not explain properly. I find it difficult to explain what I really mean (and this is a game of words?) When I have played scum I dream about the game, specially when Normal was after me (she is good), Special Ed, yourself doesn’t terrify me anymore although Moody does, what’s up with him in this game, what am I missing? **From someone else, I’d find this too apologetic.** However, if Silver Jan usually behaves like this (and you guys would know) then you be the judge if it’s her personality or she’s unusually nervous. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > The fact that he isn’t in this game perhaps 🙂 > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I have played in a game where scum could only talk at night, don’t ask which one because I can’t remember at the moment. > > I am very unsure about my vote on \*\*Kelly \*\*at the moment. He is doing almost the same thing I have done in a different game, assuming other VT’s would understand him. > > Oh, what to do, really if I am not happy with my vote now then I should unvote. > > **Unvote KellyCriterion** > > @ **Romanic** , I have nothing against jokes but as I said before you must be either Scum or a Town Power role, why would you reveal that information so early? And now you have said that you can get to level 5 in this game. I think that if you are scum, you made a tiny mistake and if you are Town then you made a bigger mistake, either way I find it anti-Town. > > **Vote Romanic** **Seems to be willing to move her vote around to pressure people.** I obviously approve of this as it matches my own strategy most of the time. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > @ **Romanic** I meant you in the generic sense, not you in particular. Sorry, I could have made that more clear. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Oh, **Askthepizzaguy** reminds me of Calvin! I hope this is a good thing! 🆒 > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I unvoted **Kelly** after he posted his PM. **Romanic** pinged me because I didn’t get a level up thing in my PM. I suppose I am claiming Vanilla Town and once again I am not happy with my vote. > > **Unvote Romanic** > > This is because of his discusions about when Scum could chat. I know this could be scum trying to not be scummy but it doesn’t feel like it. > > I don’t do well at analizing everything people say and I tend to vote on a gut feel rather than hard facts. I have been known to find Scum. I can see why I set **Normals** teeth on edge. > > Now I don’t know who to vote for 😕 > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Huh!! > > Well if that’s what you think > > **Vote Pedescribe** > > **I like it. I kinda think Pedescribe is rising up on the scummy meter myself.** > > This also fits with pressure voting. > > I know it’s not going to be seen as a good vote, sorry about your teeth **Normal** but I really haven’t got a scummy vibe from anyone and I do want to live and I am Vanilla Town with no Power. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > well this is it > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Maybe I am a bit thick but I would love to know what NPC means > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > So why was that in my PM as I am obviously plaing? > playing > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I didn’t think it didn’t match K **elly’s** and thats why I unvoted, I believe what he’s saying. > > Wouldn’t it be good if he told us which sex he was? > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Sorry, gender! Silver is either a really good actress, or she’s innocent. I like the vibes I get from these posts. Unless her strategy is to play dumb all game, she really does not know what’s going on with regard to NPC’s and levels. Understandable. Only problem I find with it is that she claims to have played the game (DnD) before. \*I played D&D 24 years ago, My name ws Silver. I haven’t played since \* Maybe it was a one-time thing. Perhaps the term NPCs was one she simply forgot. **I would call that a gotcha if I found more evidence that she’s only pretending to be unaware of things.** > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Intersting 🙂 so I am controlled by the dungeon Master, thanks 🙂 > > I still don’t know if who I voted for is right but I am a little Townie. **More of the affirmations of her townie-hood.** > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I have to place a vote before 1am so I think I will go with > > **Vote Koldanar** > > I can’t make a case so if you vote me off it will be a little VT. > > I hope Town knows this and doesn’t vote for me cos we need lots of secret VT’s so Scum don’t kill power roles What’s a VT? **Now I am the one who is confused.** > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I played D&D 24 years ago, My name ws Silver. I haven’t played since 🙂 > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I am just Vanilla Town with nothng to level up to, that’s why Romanic pinged me. **More of the affirmations of her townie-hood.** > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Sorry **Apologetic is the pattern. Unusual or not?** > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I must be so bad at this game 🙂 as scum I survived So we aren’t really looking for scum, well never mind, when I am MISLYNCHED you will know I am Town does Town really want to mislynch me? apparentl so, you will have to live with it. So we really aren’t looking for scum just some silly little Grandma that sometimes “feels” scum If I am voted off you need too look towards yourselves. Hahahaha… 😃 Oh man, you remind me of my previous girlfriend and mafia-playing mate, Diana Abnoba. She always reacted this way and everyone still found her scummy. They never did nail her like that when she was mafia. There’s just a certain same vibe to you in this post. **Call this personal bias, but I like it.** > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > What can I say! I am Town, just a Vanilla Town, I pose no threats to the bad peeps. "cept for my vote 🙂 **More of the affirmations of her townie-hood.** > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > No, I thought I was 🙂 the lynch leader that is > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > So **SP** , is that another FOS? I am Town! **More of the affirmations of her townie-hood.** > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Sorry, I don’t think I can make EOD, I would love to cos I want to defend myself but 1am is far too late, I have done my best and if you get rid of me, well I am only a VT. Scum, do your best (worst) cos you will be found out. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I am dying to say “Bah” at \*\*Ed > \*\* it makes you feel as if you don’t count, well you do and your theories Do count :Bah at **ED** > > I said I am not scared of you anymore **Ed** says she shivering in her boots 🙂 > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Thanks **Ed** , Sheesh i wish I could stay awake but I can’t ☹ So night night all Again I am struggling to find where her posts indicate anything unusual, contrived, ungenuine, or emotionally strange. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > @ **choie** , I think that if both **Normal** and I were both scum she would have stayed as far away from me as possible. I don’t know if **Normal** is scum or not but **I** am not. I rather like your theory that I could be a scum power role, but your theory is wrong! > > Why is everyone locking in their votes today?? Has me a bit confused as this was discussed at lenght on D1 > > **Vote choie** > > For unsound reasoning > > **Normal** could still be scum though so I suppose this is a FOS but I don’t want to lock myself in just yet. A fair concern for someone to have, regarding the vote lock thing. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Actually, it was your votes on BOTH Normal and me that didn’t sit well, if you had voted for either of us, fair enough but to vote for both of us looked scummy. In my observation, I find that when someone accuses someone of being scum, they often are very articulate about the reasons for their vote… especially when they’re scum themselves. \*\*Silver seems to be following up with further reasoning that seems to have been in her head. \*\*She didn’t just dump out all the reasons at once. This also seems to imply, (to me) that those reasons weren’t lies, they were genuine. Is that a reach? maybe. But that’s what my gut tells me. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I didn’t post yesterday because of a power failure, so no, I am not laying low. > > **choie** was feeling guilty for placing a vote on D1 and D2 she quite merrily places a vote on 2 people. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > @ **ShadowFacts** I have already said that I am Vanilla Town and that’s why the level cap thing worried me, there was nothing about levels or caps in my PM. I am sorry that my playing style isn’t up to your expectations but that’s the way I play. > > I don’t always place a vote on people that have voted for me but I just didn’t like the whole case. Your case is almost as bad, just because I moved my vote a lot is cos I am Town with no powers and I was very uncertain who to vote for, and yes I am now being defensive. I was right about Kelly though and you even said you didn’t remove your vote even though you had doubts about her being scum, why not, just because it was late in the day. If you removed your vote you could have got other people thinking that maybe they were wrong too! But no, you just kept your vote there and don’t seem particularly worried about it. **I think Silver responds with the same consistent, reasonable reply to pressure.** I never get the sense that she’s replying with bull spit. The line about “that’s the way I play” seems oh-so-familiar to me. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I have heard this kind of chat in a previous game ie I DEMAND, now if this is the same person then he could be doing it to wind everyone up and he is, in fact Town and giving scum an easy target for their votes. I am not totally sure of this of course but I have seen this type of play before and so has everyone that played the game on FB. I would not feel comfortable putting my vote there. > > I do have a problem playing this game because I inherently think everyone is honest when I should think everyone is lying, this makes it difficult for me to make a case against anyone and I tend to go with a gut feel. > > I also think that **scathach** was Town because scum does not miss a chance of a NK and what would the chance be of a doc (if we have one) protecting the target that scum would go after? I think it “must” have been a scum NK and a scum janitor cleaned up. **Silver seems to be generous in giving me the benefit of the doubt. Even so, it strikes me as out of reasonableness, not certainty that I’m town and trying to look good for saying so.** These remarks seem to come from a “that’s my opinion” place, not a “people, don’t lynch Pizza” place, which WOULD be odd. > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > @ **choie** , I might not be a neophyte but I am sweet (usually) and flaky 🙂 > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > Oops, sorry I misread that. \*\*If I were to base my psychological profile of Silver Jan on just this game, I’d find her patient, polite, not easily exciteable, a bit too apologetic at times, and she’s also the type who will repeat something she feels or knows is true over and over again without shouting it or getting angry about it (her repeated insistence she’s a basic townie). She also seems to be holding reasons that are true for her in her head, and she doesn’t need to script them or fake them when responding. This is indicative of a not-lying psychological state\*\*.[/spoiler] **In my opinion, Silver Jan is genuine and a wrong lynch.** I apologize but I could not find a comment worthy of red ink. I really would if I could have. If she’s scum I have failed utterly in finding any chink in her armor. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/633 "2011-07-20T03:45:14Z")
I can’t edit my post again, but there’s a spot where she votes for pedescribe where I commented and it was inside quotations. Please consider this comment to have been supposed to be outside of the quote box. "I like it. I kinda think Pedescribe is rising up on the scummy meter myself. This also fits with pressure voting." ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/634 "2011-07-20T03:51:42Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > **In my opinion, Silver Jan is genuine and a wrong lynch.** I understand that opinion. I’ve played with Silver before, and I’m not as certain that she’s not just playing a well coached game. P.S. VT is either Vodka Tonic or Vanilla Town ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/635 "2011-07-20T03:57:21Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > I understand that opinion. > > I’ve played with Silver before, and I’m not as certain that she’s not just playing a well coached game. > > P.S. VT is either Vodka Tonic or Vanilla Town I could see teammates being able to help her hide her scumtells… the problem I have with that is that there’s some tells which are too subtle. My analyses are usually best at the end of the game because, with the benefit of hindsight, old forgotten posts can be looked at in a new light. One of the things you’ll find is that sometimes a post which seemed to indicate nothing had a tiny, tiny flaw in that which indicated they knew more than they were letting on… or that they had an agenda which coincided with their ability to murder (known as Mafia ESP, a complicated concept which I could explain while I still live). Those sorts of things you CANNOT coach away, because no one even thinks they’re tells or cannot foresee that it will look wrong in retrospect. There’s also a certain level of speech patterns that is difficult to fake even in text. You think the same way you speak, and you type the same way you think. I’m much more confident on this analysis than I typically would be in a new game, new place, new people, this early in the game. Silver has posted enough that she’s given off the sorts of tiny clues that no one ever thinks about that do lean one way or another. I’ll stake what rep I have on this call. ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/636 "2011-07-20T04:05:25Z")
I want to say that I have had the majority of the following post written since this morning (or maybe early afternoon), but wound up away from the computer and now is the first chance I have had to post it. I have read what has happened in the meantime and the only thing that has pinged me since then is Red’s vote for ShadowFacts which I felt was weak. If ShadowFacts had very few posts or all his posts were of that type, then I could see it as a plausible case, but Red seems to be cherry picking a post here to make a case on. I have reviewed several other players’ posts and I am going to keep my votes where they are for now. I can’t really argue against a lynch of askthepizzaguy or Silver Jan and I am also a bit suspicious of Suburban Plankton. Suburban has seemed to spend an inordinate amount of time locating apparent PISes, and I feel in each case they were very weak. This is mitigated somewhat by the fact that he did not vote for them, but he may have been hoping someone else would jump at the bait. I agree that Silver Jan’s string of OMGUS votes and “I am Town” proclamations are inherently scummy, but reading her posts I get the feeling she is a frustrated inexperienced player. There are also so many OMGUS votes and “I am Town” statements that it starts veering into “too scummy for scum” territory. That being said, Ed’s admonition not to act like scum if you are not scum is a good one and I can’t really argue against her lynch. If I were to change one of my votes it would be for ATPG. Playing directly opposite the strategy you lay down is the height of hypocrisy. It may draw scum to vote for you, but it also is likely to get you lynched. If you truly think your analysis would help us later, then it behooves you to play in a manner that would make it likely that you would be alive later. Also, from your posts, I get the feeling that you have a large enough ego to think that you could play like you are as scum and still be able to avoid the lynch. All that said, I do tend to think you are not scum, but I can’t really argue against your lynch, either. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/637 "2011-07-20T04:07:18Z")
**[It’s been noted,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14041672#post14041672)** and proved, that Silver Jan hasn’t been OMGUS voting anyone. She’s always either been the first to vote for someone, or did not vote them back at all. Edit, Gah! Nevermind, that may have been Choie! ☹ Apologies. That one is embarassing. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/638 "2011-07-20T04:17:01Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > I’ll stake what rep I have on this call. Um, since other have given you a rep as a flip-flopping arrogant jerkbag, that’s not really much to risk, is it? 😃 I kid, I kid. However, I will point out that you aren’t familiar with Silver Jan’s style of posting. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/639 "2011-07-20T04:17:22Z")
> [@MentalGuy](#): > > If I were to change one of my votes it would be for ATPG. Playing directly opposite the strategy you lay down is the height of hypocrisy. It may draw scum to vote for you, but it also is likely to get you lynched. If you truly think your analysis would help us later, then it behooves you to play in a manner that would make it likely that you would be alive later. Playing in such a way gambles on a hope of being alive then; looking townie enough will lead to being murdered, most likely. If I don’t seriously attempt to finger suspects, dispute lynches, or even bait the scums while I am alive, then I can’t honestly say I deserve to live later either. That’s just waiting for the game to be easier for finding scum to bother playing it. It’s not my bag. > [@](#): > > Also, from your posts, I get the feeling that you have a large enough ego to think that you could play like you are as scum and still be able to avoid the lynch. Absolutely, and I have an excellent record as scum and barely a 50/50 record as townie. I also have an insane survival percentage as scum. I would characterize myself as an especially confident scumbag. One thing that does define my scum play is that I behave as townie as possible and take fewer risks. I’ve been called out on that careful style before. I lie a lot less and phrase everything very carefully. Take it from me. You can trust \*my \*opinion on me, right… 😃 > [@](#): > > All that said, I do tend to think you are not scum, but I can’t really argue against your lynch, either. Well, you’re right on both counts. I can’t either. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/640 "2011-07-20T04:25:43Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > Um, since other have given you a rep as a flip-flopping arrogant jerkbag, that’s not really much to risk, is it? 😃 > > I kid, I kid. Well, you called me out on it, so here it is. This reputation: [SPOILER]Askthepizzaguy 86 games (43 wins, 39 losses, 4 draws, 0 WOG, 0 replaced) - Survived 29 times Mafia: 14 games (11 wins, 3 losses, 0 draw, 0 WOG, 0 replaced) - Survived 9 times Neutral: 8 games (4 wins, 3 losses, 1 draw, 0 WOG, 0 replaced) - Survived 3 times Town: 64 games (28 wins, 33 losses, 3 draws, 0 WOG, 0 replaced) - Survived 17 times Survival: 0.337 Askthepizzaguy (29 in 86 games) 29 Askthepizzaguy (#2 on the list) Wins 0.523 Askthepizzaguy (43 wins, 4 draws in 86 games) 43 Askthepizzaguy (#3 on the list) On a forum where: The database contains 258 mafia games . 111 have been won by the Town. \*\*126 have been won by the Mafia. 21 have been won by a Neutral party, or drawn. \*\* The database contains 317 players. **The average winning % is 0.424. The average survival % is 0.237.** I could also link you to games where I personally made the cases that lynched every scumbag.[/SPOILER] You don’t survive games as townie where the mafia win. You don’t win games as townie where the mafia win. I have at least \*earned \*my flip-flopping jerkbaggieness. 🙂 > [@](#): > > However, I will point out that you aren’t familiar with Silver Jan’s style of posting. True enough. I’m taking a bit of a gamble with my analytical reputation. 😃 But like I said, if I’ve already taken things too far with my behavior in that I won’t be taken seriously, then you’re better off lynching me so you don’t have to do it later. I’m useless if all I am is a suspect and not a participant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=33)