# De'endee Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 6, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052 "2011-07-06T16:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/641 "2011-07-20T04:56:25Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > I have at least \*earned \*my flip-flopping jerkbaggieness. šŸ™‚ Personally, I appreciate your jerkbagginess (which I truly donā€™t find jerkbaggy at all) and find it potentially useful in finding Scum. Of course, I donā€™t have the best reputation, though I like to think Iā€™ve mellowed. However, you did encourage me to crunch some numbers on my own gameplay. Looking beyond just the record. So I looked at all games which were o the more standard 1 Scum team variety (I basically took out 3 handed and Conspiracy games none of which Iā€™ve ever won). My record on just Giraffe, Idlemafia and here. My record in those games is 17-25, which is actually much better than my over all record. We donā€™t have records overall for all players, but still [spoiler]42 games (17 wins, 25 losses) - Survived 8 times Mafia: 7 games (1 wins, 6 losses) - Survived 0 times Neutral: 3 games (0 wins, 3 losses) - Survived 0 times Town: 32 games (16 wins, 16 losses) - Survived 8 times Survival: 0.190 Wins 0.405 [/spoiler] Which basically leads me to believe that I rarely survive. That probably has some influence over my 14% Scum record and 0% 3rd party record. ---
**Author:** ![LightFoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LightFoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LightFoot)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/642 "2011-07-20T04:59:29Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > Well, you called me out on it, so here it is. > > This reputation: > > [SPOILER]Askthepizzaguy > 86 games (43 wins, 39 losses, 4 draws, 0 WOG, 0 replaced) - Survived 29 times > Mafia: 14 games (11 wins, 3 losses, 0 draw, 0 WOG, 0 replaced) - Survived 9 times > Neutral: 8 games (4 wins, 3 losses, 1 draw, 0 WOG, 0 replaced) - Survived 3 times > Town: 64 games (28 wins, 33 losses, 3 draws, 0 WOG, 0 replaced) - Survived 17 times > > Survival: > 0.337 Askthepizzaguy (29 in 86 games) > 29 Askthepizzaguy (#2 on the list) > > Wins > 0.523 Askthepizzaguy (43 wins, 4 draws in 86 games) > 43 Askthepizzaguy (#3 on the list) > > On a forum where: > > The database contains 258 mafia games . > 111 have been won by the Town. > \*\*126 have been won by the Mafia. > 21 have been won by a Neutral party, or drawn. > \*\* > The database contains 317 players. > **The average winning % is 0.424. > The average survival % is 0.237.** > > I could also link you to games where I personally made the cases that lynched every scumbag.[/SPOILER] > > You donā€™t survive games as townie where the mafia win. > You donā€™t win games as townie where the mafia win. > > I have at least \*earned \*my flip-flopping jerkbaggieness. šŸ™‚ > > True enough. Iā€™m taking a bit of a gamble with my analytical reputation. šŸ˜ƒ > > But like I said, if Iā€™ve already taken things too far with my behavior in that I wonā€™t be taken seriously, then youā€™re better off lynching me so you donā€™t have to do it later. Iā€™m useless if all I am is a suspect and not a participant. Laying down and rolling over is not attractive either. Stop doing that if you think you can help ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/643 "2011-07-20T05:47:03Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > Gosh, that guy sounds like a total jerkbag. You really should lynch him. I agree. šŸ˜ƒ > > I donā€™t suppose itā€™s possible that that guy recognizes that his methods arenā€™t done here, and that explaining that itā€™s worked for him in the past, elsewhere, might be a real explanation, and not a suggestion that heā€™s a mafia genius who is better than everyone else? > > Nah, thatā€™s not possible. No way you could be even a little unfair to a jerkbag like that. FRY HIM! > > Just trying to see how youā€™d react, and if you wanted to make me dead or not. I voted for you to get it out of my system. Watching and playing are different things. When Iā€™m playing, I try not to vote for people based on play style, because just because someone isnt playing the way I think they should, doesnā€™t mean they are scum. But people can use style deliberately, to manipulate, or confuse. Such an aggressive response from you makes me want to run away and hide, and I wonder if you did that deliberately, so that I would leave you alone. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/644 "2011-07-20T05:58:42Z")
It seems to me like Silver Jan is posting just like she did last game here. She was scum then, but she totally had me going because I thought no one could be such a good actor. But it is not so much acting as just thinking about things in a different way, i.e. it is her style. Thatā€™s not enough for me to vote her at the moment, but it is making me uneasy (fool me once, ā€¦) ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/645 "2011-07-20T07:26:41Z")
Ok, I am here and I donā€™t know what else to say, I donā€™t know how to change the way I play. @ **Weedy** , when I play as scum I usually have stronger arguments even though my writing style may be the same. I am not sure if I should say this but in the last game I played with **Red** he voted for me very early on and he ended up being scum while I was Town. Maybe I should lock myself in with a second vote on **choie** because she is denigrating me for doing exactly what she is doing, this might come across as just being mean though. ---
**Author:** ![gnarlycharlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@gnarlycharlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarlycharlie)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/646 "2011-07-20T07:53:11Z")
> [@MentalGuy](#): > > snipped > I feel Charlie is trying to post enough to seem engaged in the game, but what game discussion there is is almost all generic strategy or game mechanics. I canā€™t really say that his one vote was a bad vote in the circumstance, but at the time it did look like it might lead to an easy bandwagon on pizzaguy. > > **Vote Gnarlycharlie** bleached so you feel that i am therefore more suspicious than **Pizza**? do you agree then with **Pizza**? am i the only one with who posts like this? this really is weak reasoning. iā€™ve seen this logic lynch Town more than scum. if my posts seem inadequate, it takes time for me to digest the sometimes long and convoluted posts here. your posts havenā€™t been spectacular either you know, a lot of agreeing with other people and commenting on mechanics. [/QUOTE] > [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > I very much like the case on gnarly; pending time and energy for the other stuff I want or need to look at (probably Wednesday), I"m going to express that with my second vote. > > **vote: gnarlycharlie** bleached you like **MentalGuy** ā€™s weak case? this is an even weaker vote. * * * interestingly enough, at the time of these two votes, this tied me with **Septimus**. this may be of interest later since right now itā€™s **Silver Jan** and **Pizza** who are numbers one and two in voting. ---
**Author:** ![gnarlycharlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@gnarlycharlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarlycharlie)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/647 "2011-07-20T08:07:59Z")
> [@USCDiver](#): > > Canā€™t argue with that,\* for obvious reasons\*: > > **vote Askthepizzaguy** bleached > > snipped are you voting for Pizza because of the ā€˜obvious reasonsā€™ phrase he used in voting **Septimus**? i believe **Pizza** was just using **Septimus** ā€™ words against him. > [@LightFoot](#): > > This started my suspicionā€¦ā€¦ā€¦.the ā€œthird vote is Scum theorieā€ does not sit well with meā€¦ā€¦ā€¦ > > snipped there is actually a third vote scum theory. itā€™s in one of the wiki sites. personally, i doubt scum would use that argument as that theory is outdated. ---
**Author:** ![gnarlycharlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@gnarlycharlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarlycharlie)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/648 "2011-07-20T08:10:54Z")
i believe Silver Jan has 6 votes. ShadowFactsā€™ vote [575] may have been missedā€¦ or i may have missed an unvote. ---
**Author:** ![gnarlycharlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@gnarlycharlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarlycharlie)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/649 "2011-07-20T08:48:01Z")
> [@USCDiver](#): > > snipped > > \*\*askthepizzaguy \*\*was confusing the hell out of me at first too, but I see where heā€™s coming from now. And although Iā€™m not convinced heā€™s town, I believe heā€™s playing within his own pre-established methods. > > snipped > [@USCDiver](#): > > Canā€™t argue with that,\* for obvious reasons\*: > > **vote Askthepizzaguy** bleached **USCDiver** flip-flops without explaining why. seems like heā€™s just riding the bandwagon. **Vote USCDiver** **Normal Phase** votes me for the same reason **MentalGuy** votes me. his reasoning was weak. her agreement makes her reasoning even weaker. feels like an opportunistic vote. it also ties me with **Septimus** , which could be an attempt make two bandwagons. **Vote Normal Phase** ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Jan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Silver\_Jan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Jan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/650 "2011-07-20T09:18:57Z")
I have a question for **Special Ed** , first you say I look scummy and then you say it looks like I am being coached. I canā€™t for the life of me see a scenario where scum would coach me to look scummy??? ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/651 "2011-07-20T12:37:38Z")
> [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > are you voting for Pizza because of the ā€˜obvious reasonsā€™ phrase he used in voting **Septimus**? i believe **Pizza** was just using **Septimus** ā€™ words against him. Iā€™m voting for him because he asked to be lynched. Iā€™m always happy to oblige a player who doesnā€™t want to stick around. I used the ā€˜obvious reasonā€™ phrase as a joke because heā€™s emphasized it so many times. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/652 "2011-07-20T13:09:19Z")
\*\* Vote Count Septimus(2): Askthepizzaguy, Askthepizzaguy, ShadowFacts(2): Normal, Redskeezix Gnarly(2): Mentalguy, Normal Koldanar(2): Mentalguy, Lightfoot Normal(3): Specialed, Choie, Gnarly Askthepizzaguy(5):, Pedescribe, Pedescribe, Septimus, Weedy, USCDiver Silver Jan(6): Choie, Shadowfacts, Specialed, Suburban, Redskeezix, Innerstickler, Choie(2): SilverJan, Suburban USCDiver(1): Gnarly Silverjan is on the chopping block currently. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/653 "2011-07-20T13:10:54Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > **In my opinion, Silver Jan is genuine and a wrong lynch.** > > I apologize but I could not find a comment worthy of red ink. I really would if I could have. > > If sheā€™s scum I have failed utterly in finding any chink in her armor. This. > [@](#): > > Again I am struggling to find where her posts indicate anything unusual, contrived, ungenuine, or emotionally strange. When she was scum last game, she made some votes for poor reasons, but what really got me were her unvotes: contrived and ungenuine described them nicely. She offered excuses for the unvote that seemed more to be trying to defend the original vote, for instance. The rationale behind the criticism she got that prompted the never seemed to be the real motive for the unvote. Hereā€™s her unvote of me from day one in this game: > [@](#): > > This is just a quick post to say I am properly in the game again, Daughter and Grandson are fine so time to read in detail. > > BTW I think I gave Pede a free pass cos I felt sorry for him in the other game, bad play I know but my mind was elsewhere but I am seriuolsy back now. > > Unvote Normal Phase > > It was a bad vote because it was metagaming and an OMGUS for the FOS. This time, the unvote is for an appropriate reason, nor does she try to over-justify the original bad vote itself. Her behavior in this respect could not be more different than from last game. Sheā€™s either a VERY quick study of her own mistakes (and with a lot of self-discipline to boot ā€“ but then why leave herself open to what is happening to her now?), or she is not scum. (I do have a minor concern that she could be sucking up in the wake of her vote on me and my criticism of her on another matter (I had criticized her giving Pedescribe a pass), but like ATPG I see nothing here that suggests she actually did so, nothing that looks fake.) Her scum tells, that people are voting on, are superficial ones. She says ā€œIā€™m a townieā€ too much (donā€™t remember her doing that as scum). She claimed when she didnā€™t need to. (didnā€™t do that either) She OMGUS voted. (If anything, she failed last game by NOT doing that; I was on her like white on rice, but all she did in response was to back away slowly with placating gestures, more or less. And I was in fact non-town!) For someone who has very recently left substantial deep scum tells, and who is not doing that here, these votes feel misplaced. She could still be scum, but Iā€™m up to a list of a half dozen people at least Iā€™d rather see dead right now. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/654 "2011-07-20T13:19:59Z")
I donā€™t think ATPG is scum either, btw. Heā€™s not showing a hint of stress, and heā€™s not slinging BS in the way I have seen him sling BS ā€“ if I know him in the least heā€™s enjoying the heck out of this right now. Iā€™d guess third-party/PFK at worst, and probably townie. And given none of you (save Romanic, get your butt in here Romanic) know my history with him at the .org, that opinionā€™s worth about as much as tits on a bull. If I wind up dead, though, and he hasnā€™t been lynched yet, maybe itā€™ll get a hearing. Enough defending, time to go hunting. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/655 "2011-07-20T13:23:09Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > (3) The one thing Iā€™ve found that often works is to gauge posts by sincerity. The problem is that Scum try to act very sincerely; so you need to distinguish fake sincerity from real sincerity. I do realize this can be very hard to do, and Iā€™m not competent to offer details on how to do it, beyond saying Scum try to act ā€œagreeable.ā€ Yes. Not all of them, of course, but for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/656 "2011-07-20T13:28:23Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > Bah! > > \*\*[COLOR=Red]Unvote: AskThePizzaGuy > [COLOR=Blue]Vote: Silver Jan > If youā€™re Town, please stop acting like Scum. What about the specific post you replied to here prompted this response? ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/657 "2011-07-20T13:42:57Z")
Followup to ATPGā€™s post 599, re: Septimus. Some formatting adjusted. > [@](#): > > This next part is telling. > > > [@Septimus](#): > > > > Iā€™ve mixed feelings about whether to renew my vote against you. I have no other strong scum candidates, but some of your zaniness and reversals do not seem like what Scum would do. Iā€™m sure youā€™re capable of a deep double-think ā€œwifomā€ game as Scum, but would you attempt that in your first game as a relative newcomer to SDMB? (Where do you usually play?) How did you get from here to a casual ā€œfor obvious reasonsā€ vote on ATPG, Septimus? Youā€™re criticizing his approach to the game, but to what extent do you really believe him to be scum? Your vote is part of a bandwagon that looks capable of getting him lynched; do you really stand behind that vote? If so, why? ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/658 "2011-07-20T13:50:37Z")
The comments from Texcat in 600 also need addressing, Septimus. I agree with the thrust of both of them, particularly the first: you explain to choie how your OMGUS votes have been bad in the past, but then you turn around and OMGUS ATPG, who just happens to be getting a lot of negative attention anyway at the moment. Particularly if Pedescribe is town, this looks bad. The second comment I see differently from Texcat but still in a bad light: it doesnā€™t look so much like coziness between Septimus and choie to me, but more as snuggling from Septimus aimed at new player choie: giving the newbie advice and then complimenting a post which, while admirable in its openness, didnā€™t particularly have much else to admire about it. Provisional **unvote gnarlycharlie** **vote Septimus** pending full review of both gnarly and Shadow. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/659 "2011-07-20T13:57:28Z")
Iā€™m not any more convinced by the Silver Jan case than I was yesterDay. I said in reference to pedescribe on Day One that unvoting when called on bad votes is a null tell. Silver Jan does have a tendency to make bad votes and retract them but Iā€™m having difficulty seeing what the scum motivation behind her overall behaviour is. The impression I get is of someone who was confused about the gaming terms ā€œlevel capā€ and ā€œNPCā€ and who hasnā€™t developed a scum-finding toolkit yet so tends to vote for inconsistencies rather than scum behaviours. (I wouldnā€™t worry about the latter - those of us with lovingly developed theories about what scum do and donā€™t do and donā€™t donā€™t do tend not to boast a 100% success rate, to put it mildly). Pizza is next on the chopping block. This is more complex so Iā€™m going to try to break it down for myself: **Against Pizza:** Essentially, the whole ā€œI look like scum, but if you vote for me youā€™re the real scumā€ schtick. Hypothetically, a scum Pizza who adopted this pose would have a) given himself licence to be as inconsistent and hypocritical as he wanted and b) pre-emptively deterred anybody who considered voting for him with the threat of an aggressive OMGUS campaign. By contrast, if your whole plan is to look scummy in an attempt to lure scum votes, it would be best not to loudly announce this plan to all and sundry. At this point, Iā€™m wondering if thereā€™s a super secret real plan which is to lynch people that _donā€™t_ vote for him on the grounds that scum would be afraid of drawing his fire. There are other inconsistencies which have been pointed out by others (e.g. over double voting) but inconsistency isnā€™t necessarily scummy. (Although at root, all scum are forced to be inconsistent - to pretend they want what Town wants when they donā€™t.) Itā€™s the overarching justification for any and all vote-drawing behaviour, coupled with the pre-emptive UberOMGUS that really give me pause. **For Pizza:** His analysis of Silver Jan. Itā€™s long and detailed. It concludes that sheā€™s likely Town. Given that sheā€™s his close rival for the lynch, it would have been more self-interested to do a long analysis that concluded she was scum, or if he wanted to conclude she was town in order to look selfless and noble, to do so without putting all of her posts in one place to be read and going through them in detail to make his case. He wouldnā€™t, after all, want to be too convincing. Reading back, he did something similar with Kelly when he was close to him for the lead. His self-confidence. He comes across as a player whoā€™s backing his own play pretty heavily, and who isnā€™t going to modify that to keep people sweet. Scum tend naturally to be circumspect and avoid tall poppy syndrome. The attitude could be an elaborate bluff, as I discussed above, but I doubt that anyone could keep it up too long. Weā€™d start to see some self-preservation behaviour at some point with the vote pressure, and there doesnā€™t seem to be any. (I donā€™t mean the ā€œok, lynch me if you have toā€ stuff, I mean a genuine change of pace or tone.) On balance, Iā€™m leaning slightly town on Pizza. Itā€™s tough, because not having played with him I have that itchy feeling that I might be being suckered, but I think that most of what heā€™s done to raise my hackles has been due to play-style rather than any pro-Scum behaviour. So who does that leave? I didnā€™t like USCDiversā€™ votes before, and I donā€™t love his fairly unreasoned, non-scum-hunting vote for pizza now. But I really donā€™t like Mental Guyā€™s case on gnarlycharlie. Gnarly did a good job of refuting it, and the fact that Mentalā€™s case can be so easily reflected back on him makes me wonder if thereā€™s an element of transference: **vote Mental Guy** ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/660 "2011-07-20T13:59:28Z")
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