# De'endee Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 6, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052 "2011-07-06T16:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/661 "2011-07-20T14:14:11Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > [no color] > > **Weedy** is replacing **Romanic.** I’m still looking for a replacement for Koldanar. Oh, that’s why Romanic hasn’t weighed in. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/662 "2011-07-20T14:28:43Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > I’m not any more convinced by the Silver Jan case than I was yesterDay. I said in reference to pedescribe on Day One that unvoting when called on bad votes is a null tell. Silver Jan does have a tendency to make bad votes and retract them but I’m having difficulty seeing what the scum motivation behind her overall behaviour is. The impression I get is of someone who was confused about the gaming terms “level cap” and “NPC” and who hasn’t developed a scum-finding toolkit yet so tends to vote for inconsistencies rather than scum behaviours. (I wouldn’t worry about the latter - those of us with lovingly developed theories about what scum do and don’t do and don’t don’t do tend not to boast a 100% success rate, to put it mildly). Gods help me, but I have to admit that **PizzaGuy’s** analysis of **Silver Jan** was pretty convincing. \*\*Normal Phase’s \*\*addition to that analysis also makes sense (despite the fact that she is gunning for me). I still don’t think **Silver Jan** is playing well, but that is not by itself scummy, so **Unvote Silver Jan** In related news, I am completely conflicted about **PizzaGuy**. He’s had at least two blatant examples of his actions contradicting his words. Normally, I would vote something like that damn quick and be pretty confident about it. But I can’t quite pull the damn trigger. The bandwagon that he’s on right now feels like an easy “lynch the loud” train and his participation is solid, even if I disagree with his methods. He’s driving me crazy, to be honest, but despite it all I am leaning Town on him. I don’t think I’ll vote for him toDay. (That said, I do think his case on **septimus** is really weak). Which leaves me with…no votes right now. Back to the drawing board. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/663 "2011-07-20T14:30:59Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I’m back, he said sotto voce. > > Lightfoot’s claim is ill-considered from another perspective in that if there is a doc in this game, they are paranoid and Is there a second “if” missing here? ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/664 "2011-07-20T14:32:52Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > Posting as I catch up > > Despite my presence on Silver Jan’s wagon. I’m currently aware that it is an appealing place for Scum to place a vote currently if any of the other vote getters are Scum. You include a quote by ATPG in this post that doesn’t seem to have anything to do with what you’re talking about otherwise. Did something get snipped? If so, what? ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/665 "2011-07-20T14:40:59Z")
> [@USCDiver](#): > > Can’t argue with that,\* for obvious reasons\*: > > \*\*[COLOR=“Blue”]vote Askthepizzaguy Do you think he’s scum? > [@](#): > > Wait, what? Why would scum be wondering about their kill if they didn’t do what? Either it’s their kill and they know it, or it was not their kill and they know it. Scum certainly know who they targeted for lynch. Whether that was Scathach or not remains to be seen. Certainly possible they got blocked and a third party and/or vigilante’s kill made it through. I’m not making any assumptions at this point other than to keep all possibilities in mind. I believe that what Lightfoot was getting at is that _if_ the scum were not themselves responsible for scathach’s no-reveal status, then they would be confused and probably assume a third party responsible instead. (Lightfoot seems to assume that third party would be scathach himself, which doesn’t make much sense to me, but the overall concept does.) They might then bring up the issue of third parties. Whereas town would be much more likely to assume “scum janitor” and leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/666 "2011-07-20T14:47:28Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > I understand that opinion. > > I’ve played with Silver before, and I’m not as certain that she’s not just playing a well coached game. > > P.S. VT is either Vodka Tonic or Vanilla Town Coached to do what, Ed? OMGUS all over the place, say “I’m town” a lot, and so on? Why? Just to fool contrarians like me? There are a lot more players out there who think my methods are nuts than who both agree with me and are willing to follow me, as evidenced by the bandwagon itself, which could well prevail today. I would not call such a thing good coaching; I’d call it bad coaching. To say I have issues with this comment of yours is to put it mildly. Clarify, please. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/667 "2011-07-20T14:52:53Z")
> [@MentalGuy](#): > > I can’t really argue against a lynch of askthepizzaguy or Silver Jan and I am also a bit suspicious of Suburban Plankton. > > Suburban has seemed to spend an inordinate amount of time locating apparent PISes, and I feel in each case they were very weak. This is mitigated somewhat by the fact that he did not vote for them, but he may have been hoping someone else would jump at the bait. I remember one from yesterDay and had the same reaction; have there been others? About ATPG: > [@](#): > > Also, from your posts, I get the feeling that you have a large enough ego to think that you could play like you are as scum and still be able to avoid the lynch. All that said, I do tend to think you are not scum, but I can’t really argue against your lynch, either. Hoist by your own petard, dude. 😃 Well, maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/668 "2011-07-20T15:03:52Z")
> [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > so you feel that i am therefore more suspicious than **Pizza**? do you agree then with **Pizza**? am i the only one with who posts like this? this really is weak reasoning. i’ve seen this logic lynch Town more than scum. if my posts seem inadequate, it takes time for me to digest the sometimes long and convoluted posts here. your posts haven’t been spectacular either you know, a lot of agreeing with other people and commenting on mechanics. Can you demonstrate this? I didn’t pay any attention to Mental Guy on day one; if there’s something there I’d appreciate seeing it. But I disagree with your characterization of his case on you being weak. Avoidance of scum hunting while still being visibly present is characteristic more of scum than of town, unless your name is Inner Stickler. Your noise-to-signal ratio on day one was extremely high. (snip my vote) > [@](#): > > you like **MentalGuy** ’s weak case? this is an even weaker vote. > > * * * > > interestingly enough, at the time of these two votes, this tied me with **Septimus**. this may be of interest later since right now it’s **Silver Jan** and **Pizza** who are numbers one and two in voting. I’m not even sure what you’re trying to insinuate here. That I’m scumbuddies with Septimus and was so threatened by ATPG’s two votes on him that I engaged in horrible me-too-ing just to tie it up? ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/669 "2011-07-20T15:10:25Z")
> [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > are you voting for Pizza because of the ‘obvious reasons’ phrase he used in voting **Septimus**? i believe **Pizza** was just using **Septimus** ’ words against him. That was at USCDiver; I have no issues with this comment. > [@](#): > > there is actually a third vote scum theory. it’s in one of the wiki sites. personally, i doubt scum would use that argument as that theory is outdated. Apropos of nothing, it really should not be outdated. Third spot is very comfortable for scum psychologically. I bet even with knowledge of the meme it still tips a little bit out of proportion toward scum being there than town. It’d be silly and counterproductive to consider it a strong tell, but it’s a good enough reason to look at someone. About Koldanar specifically (quote above is gnarly in response to Lightfoot’s idea that Koldanar had no justification for this third-vote smudginess) – scum are certainly not immune from making bad or outdated arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/670 "2011-07-20T15:15:09Z")
> [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > **USCDiver** flip-flops without explaining why. seems like he’s just riding the bandwagon. > **Vote USCDiver** > **Normal Phase** votes me for the same reason **MentalGuy** votes me. his reasoning was weak. her agreement makes her reasoning even weaker. feels like an opportunistic vote. it also ties me with **Septimus** , which could be an attempt make two bandwagons. > > **Vote Normal Phase** The vote on Diver is OK, I guess, but I’d feel better about the one on me if it WAS that you were paranoid about me and Septimus being scumbuddies. This rationale makes no sense; it would have been a stronger vote if you’d left out Septimus entirely. What possible connection does “attempt to make two bandwagons” have to scumminess? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/671 "2011-07-20T15:27:58Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Is there a second “if” missing here? Yes, if there is a doc, there is a possibility that they are paranoid. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/672 "2011-07-20T15:32:56Z")
Replies to **special ed, Lightfoot, Weedy, Stanislaus, and ShadowFacts,** spoilered for less clutter. > [@special\_ed](#): > > Personally, I appreciate your jerkbagginess (which I truly don’t find jerkbaggy at all) and find it potentially useful in finding Scum. I’m actually fairly decent to talk to provided one is not on the other end of my accusatory pointing finger. Though, even though I am uber aggressive in that regard, I hardly ever write someone off as completely guilty and stop listening to them. People have changed my minds even when I was sure they were death-worthy before… they just need to hit the right townie-tell buttons. It’s rare but it happens. And when that happens, I have an nearly 100% record of being correct in reversing my opinion of them. I think after the initial shock of getting to know me, people learn to excuse my potentially dunce-cap worthy moments. There are times when I speak my mind a little too honestly and I haven’t checked my statements for accuracy or tone properly. [QUOTE] Of course, I don’t have the best reputation, though I like to think I’ve mellowed. However, you did encourage me to crunch some numbers on my own gameplay. Looking beyond just the record. So I looked at all games which were o the more standard 1 Scum team variety (I basically took out 3 handed and Conspiracy games none of which I’ve ever won). My record on just Giraffe, Idlemafia and here. My record in those games is 17-25, which is actually much better than my over all record. We don’t have records overall for all players, but still [spoiler]42 games (17 wins, 25 losses) - Survived 8 times Mafia: 7 games (1 wins, 6 losses) - Survived 0 times Neutral: 3 games (0 wins, 3 losses) - Survived 0 times Town: 32 games (16 wins, 16 losses) - Survived 8 times Survival: 0.190 Wins 0.405 Which basically leads me to believe that I rarely survive. That probably has some influence over my 14% Scum record and 0% 3rd party record. [/QUOTE] Anywhere near a 50/50 win rate \*as town \*is excellent. You have my respect there, especially since you’ve edged me out in that category. I think with the level of activity, discussion, and length of days here, that a better win record for the town is the likeliest outcome. Less time and less thinking leads to mafia wins. > [@LightFoot](#): > > Laying down and rolling over is not attractive either. Stop doing that if you think you can help I won’t be voting for myself (this time) if that’s what you mean. All I’m saying is if I think I can help but I’ve already bungled my credibility then no one is going to listen to me anyway and I’ll just be left alive as bait for a lynch, and eventually eat one when the temptation to look under my skirt gets too great. I’d be more effective not being a distraction then. > [@Weedy](#): > > I voted for you to get it out of my system. Watching and playing are different things. When I’m playing, I try not to vote for people based on play style, because just because someone isnt playing the way I think they should, doesn’t mean they are scum. But people can use style deliberately, to manipulate, or confuse. Such an aggressive response from you makes me want to run away and hide, and I wonder if you did that deliberately, so that I would leave you alone. Nice. Well I’m not going to lie, bluffing and deliberately using certain styles to convince people not to lynch you is effective as mafia, and also as town. While I am on the level when I suggest that, for lack of better options, lynching me is fine here and won’t hurt my feelings, demonstrating with a little bravado that death doesn’t scare me and that folks are only voting me for being a little aggressive with baiting and eye-poking is an effective way to change people’s minds. You’re well within reason to suspect me of using such tactics, since I am using them. 😃 That said, please note that I have removed all options for myself to push the vote onto anyone but septimus and I’m not exactly playing in a way that makes me appear sympathetic. And one of the more likely outcomes of telling people that you’re not afraid to die is they’re likely to go “okay” and kill you. Case in point. I tend to feel that the bait strategy has in fact worked. I would be very impressed if none of the scumbags have voted for me so far or bothered to comment on the situation. Even if I die here, I would still encourage suspicion on those who wagoned me and especially focus on their motivations for doing so and see if they pass the sniff test. It’s going to be a long game, and I hope people will refer back to this part when examining someone for being genuine or not. Once the innocent people on my wagon die off, it should be easier to see which of the remainders were more sinister. > [@Stanislaus](#): > > **Against Pizza:** > Essentially, the whole “I look like scum, but if you vote for me you’re the real scum” schtick. Hypothetically, a scum Pizza who adopted this pose would have a) given himself licence to be as inconsistent and hypocritical as he wanted and b) pre-emptively deterred anybody who considered voting for him with the threat of an aggressive OMGUS campaign. By contrast, if your whole plan is to look scummy in an attempt to lure scum votes, it would be best not to loudly announce this plan to all and sundry. At this point, I’m wondering if there’s a super secret real plan which is to lynch people that _don’t_ vote for him on the grounds that scum would be afraid of drawing his fire. It also works very effectively over several games, because when you do outrageous things that would ordinarily get you lynched, and people stop reacting to it, you’ve now gained a license to actually act scummy when scum, and not look any different from normal. It’s a particularly nasty strategy. But to be honest, a lot of the things that come across as scummy are effective for winning games on both sides of the board. Getting people to not vote for you wins games as townie too. OMGUS voting rids you of people who want to rid themselves of you, and people are generally more willing to get rid of people who have voted them in the past and more likely to find them suspect. Lying can send misinformation to the scums just as it can to the town. I particularly love fake claims which get basic townies murdered instead of power roles. I’ve even claimed detective and gotten scum lynched when I wasn’t detective. That’s extremely scummy, but, my philosophy is to play just as dirty as the scums do and beat them at their own game. Also, you’d be surprised how effective announcing your strategy is. The best response is to ignore the bait, but often people will react by confronting or retreating, and either of those is a flinch over baseline. People either want to show how weak the tactic is by putting themselves in the line of fire, or they deliberately avoid being caught by it. If you’re not scum you have no reason to show much of a reaction at all unless you’ve concluded I am guilty. > [@](#): > > There are other inconsistencies which have been pointed out by others (e.g. over double voting) but inconsistency isn’t necessarily scummy. (Although at root, all scum are forced to be inconsistent - to pretend they want what Town wants when they don’t.) It’s the overarching justification for any and all vote-drawing behaviour, coupled with the pre-emptive UberOMGUS that really give me pause. I’ve found that scumbags will attempt to avoid being caught by inconsistency and hypocrisy and play as straight as possible. And they also like pointing out the inconsistency of others so any minor instances they might have of it look less incriminating by comparison. “Hey, I’ve only flip-flopped once. This guy, on the other hand, major flip-flopper, let’s get him!” Looking less bad than others is basically the number one overall strategy of being scum. > [@](#): > > **For Pizza:** > His analysis of Silver Jan. It’s long and detailed. It concludes that she’s likely Town. Given that she’s his close rival for the lynch, it would have been more self-interested to do a long analysis that concluded she was scum, or if he wanted to conclude she was town in order to look selfless and noble, to do so without putting all of her posts in one place to be read and going through them in detail to make his case. He wouldn’t, after all, want to be too convincing. Reading back, he did something similar with Kelly when he was close to him for the lead. I’d actually be suspicious of such obviously and gratuitously selfless behavior if it weren’t me doing it. It sort of smacks of WIFOM. I’ll only give myself a pass on that. You’ll notice that I gave Silver Jan no points at all for mentioning that she wasn’t voting for me to save her own hide in this close vote. I would think the scums would wait to the last minute to “reluctantly” vote for Pizza over themselves, so as not to appear eager. Being selfless sort of looks like nervousness sometimes. I wouldn’t call it a tell unless something seemed off about it, though. Such as voting for someone earlier in the game (thus indicating you wouldn’t mind lynching said person given the opportunity) and then not following through when it is you versus them. Why hesitate? Trying to look townie? Or, thinking someone is likely townie and then making no effort at all to come up with third alternatives when it is you versus them for the lynch. Sadly, this one is less of a tell because people are lazy. > [@](#): > > His self-confidence. He comes across as a player who’s backing his own play pretty heavily, and who isn’t going to modify that to keep people sweet. Scum tend naturally to be circumspect and avoid tall poppy syndrome. The attitude could be an elaborate bluff, as I discussed above, but I doubt that anyone could keep it up too long. We’d start to see some self-preservation behaviour at some point with the vote pressure, and there doesn’t seem to be any. (I don’t mean the “ok, lynch me if you have to” stuff, I mean a genuine change of pace or tone.) I refer to my survival percentage as mafia here. If you poke the nest enough times, the hornet’s nest will come alive and you WILL die. I know this just as much as anyone who has ever played the game, and I also know when not to poke the nest. Look at what happens after I suggest “I’m not a horrible lynch”, I actually got at least one additional person voting for me. The natural reaction to such moves is to call them out on it. You’re not going to live for very long by putting your head in the tiger’s mouth, especially if the tiger doesn’t know who the hell you are. You’re a SNACK. People’s reactions are often so natural and instinctive that you can easily predict what words you can say will get you dead. I do avoid saying those sorts of phrases as much as I can when scum, and it does work. If I were scum, being a snack on round 2 wouldn’t be my strategy. > [@](#): > > On balance, I’m leaning slightly town on Pizza. It’s tough, because not having played with him I have that itchy feeling that I might be being suckered, but I think that most of what he’s done to raise my hackles has been due to play-style rather than any pro-Scum behaviour. Ask Normal Phase how often people have that reaction. I don’t change my style and it always leaves people with a “but if I let him live and he wins, I’ll feel suckered”. This leads to me dying moar. 😃 > [@](#): > > So who does that leave? > > I didn’t like USCDivers’ votes before, and I don’t love his fairly unreasoned, non-scum-hunting vote for pizza now. But I really don’t like Mental Guy’s case on gnarlycharlie. Gnarly did a good job of refuting it, and the fact that Mental’s case can be so easily reflected back on him makes me wonder if there’s an element of transference: > > **vote Mental Guy** I kinda didn’t like Diver’s vote on me as well, but I’m well aware that what I do often leads to townies abruptly going “fine, whatever, die.” Obviously, or the wagon wouldn’t be comprised of more people than are possibly scums in this game. I’m kinda interested that septimus seems to be avoiding voting for me or commenting much on my jihad against him. I don’t know whether that’s because he’s more interested in trying to solve the game, or because he feels it’s the best way to avoid the magnifying glass. Time will tell on that. > [@ShadowFacts](#): > > In related news, I am completely conflicted about **PizzaGuy**. He’s had at least two blatant examples of his actions contradicting his words. Normally, I would vote something like that damn quick and be pretty confident about it. But I can’t quite pull the damn trigger. The bandwagon that he’s on right now feels like an easy “lynch the loud” train and his participation is solid, even if I disagree with his methods. He’s driving me crazy, to be honest, but despite it all I am leaning Town on him. This is my favorite reaction to see. 🙂 > [@](#): > > I don’t think I’ll vote for him toDay. (That said, I do think his case on **septimus** is really weak). It \*is \*really weak. The point of it is to rattle septimus’ cage if I can and see who also wants septimus dead. Imagine if he turned out to be scum later on… would you pick Normal as his partner? I think the scummiest thing about septimus is he seems to be ducking me entirely. Is that normal, is he usually not much of a talker? > [@](#): > > Which leaves me with…no votes right now. Back to the drawing board. :o In cases like this, voting for anyone that is up for the lynch at least distances themselves from you so I can go “you’re probably not their partner” in retrospect. Depending of course on how badly you seem to want them dead. Which btw, invites scums bussing their partners… which can lead to dead scums anyway. :D[/SPOILER] Also, Normal Phase, your double-triple-quadruple posting which I’ve come to tolerate and find cute could be cut down slightly by doing the above kind of reply. 😛 Love you lots. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/673 "2011-07-20T15:37:22Z")
\*\*Please bleach votes when quoting them, especially in a game with multivotes. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/674 "2011-07-20T15:39:04Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > \*\*Please bleach votes when quoting them, especially in a game with multivotes. \*\* If the quoted votes are in a spoiler, is that sufficient? I don’t think any vote inside a spoiler should be legally counted, as it’s annoying for the GM to open spoilers to find votes. They should be plainly viewable or not legal at all. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/675 "2011-07-20T15:41:39Z")
**The votes won’t be counted if not bleached, but it’s just a courtesy. Spoilering them is fine, too.** ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/676 "2011-07-20T15:45:07Z")
> [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > I have a question for **Special Ed** , first you say I look scummy and then you say it looks like I am being coached. I can’t for the life of me see a scenario where scum would coach me to look scummy??? No, But Scumbuddies might coach you to try to look Townie in the ways that AskThePizzaGuy saw…and maybe it just wasn’t a perfect job, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/677 "2011-07-20T15:47:37Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > No, But Scumbuddies might coach you to try to look Townie in the ways that AskThePizzaGuy saw…and maybe it just wasn’t a perfect job, eh? Which particular ways were you referring to? Please give specific examples. I want to see if I can imagine the kind of coaching you’re talking about. At least some of those examples, I can’t. (This is an example of trying to figure out if you’re lying to me or if you really believe what you’re saying.) No rush, but if you take all day to respond I’ll know you’ve carefully formulated a reply and it may be less genuine. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/678 "2011-07-20T15:48:58Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > I don’t think ATPG is scum either, btw. He’s not showing a hint of stress, and he’s not slinging BS in the way I have seen him sling BS – if I know him in the least he’s enjoying the heck out of this right now. I’d guess third-party/PFK at worst, and probably townie. > > And given none of you (save Romanic, get your butt in here Romanic) know my history with him at the .org, that opinion’s worth about as much as tits on a bull. If I wind up dead, though, and he hasn’t been lynched yet, maybe it’ll get a hearing. > > Enough defending, time to go hunting. However, by his own admission, he tends to survive games better ass Scum than as Town, which means he must appear to be Town quite well in games in which he is Scum, probably playing with people who are familiar to him. So, your opinion may be tainted. I’m curious, in games in which you two have played together, how good are you at determining when he is Scum in general? ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/679 "2011-07-20T15:52:37Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > What about the specific post you replied to here prompted this response? The parts I’ve bolded below > [@Silver\_Jan](#): > > @ **ShadowFacts** I have already said that I am Vanilla Town and that’s why the level cap thing worried me, there was nothing about levels or caps in my PM. I am sorry that my playing style isn’t up to your expectations but that’s the way I play. > > I don’t always place a vote on people that have voted for me but I just didn’t like the whole case. Your case is almost as bad, **just because I moved my vote a lot is cos I am Town with no powers** and I was very uncertain who to vote for, and yes I am now being defensive.\*\* I was right about Kelly though\*\* and you even said **you didn’t remove your vote even though you had doubts about her being scum** , why not, just because it was late in the day. If you removed your vote you could have got other people thinking that maybe they were wrong too! But no, you just kept your vote there and don’t seem particularly worried about it. I especially didn’t like the “I was right about the mislynch and you were wrong part.” Scum have a much greater ability to be correct about lynches than Town does (since they already know who is Scum), and so might use their ‘good’ voting record as evidence of Towniness ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/680 "2011-07-20T15:54:34Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > The comments from Texcat in 600 also need addressing, Septimus. I agree with the thrust of both of them, particularly the first: you explain to choie how your OMGUS votes have been bad in the past, but then you turn around and OMGUS ATPG, who just happens to be getting a lot of negative attention anyway at the moment. Particularly if Pedescribe is town, this looks bad. > > The second comment I see differently from Texcat but still in a bad light: it doesn’t look so much like coziness between Septimus and choie to me, but more as snuggling from Septimus aimed at new player choie: giving the newbie advice and then complimenting a post which, while admirable in its openness, didn’t particularly have much else to admire about it. > > Provisional > **unvote gnarlycharlie** > **vote Septimus** > pending full review of both gnarly and Shadow. _subscribes to Normal’s newsletter \*\* unvote: Normal Phase vote: septimus_\* [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=35)