# De'endee Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 6, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052 "2011-07-06T16:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![LightFoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LightFoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LightFoot)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/681 "2011-07-20T15:55:36Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > ~~snip~~ > > I believe that what Lightfoot was getting at is that _if_ the scum were not themselves responsible for scathach’s no-reveal status, then they would be confused and probably assume a third party responsible instead. (Lightfoot seems to assume that third party would be scathach himself, which doesn’t make much sense to me, but the overall concept does.) They might then bring up the issue of third parties. Whereas town would be much more likely to assume “scum janitor” and leave it at that. Well, sell me a goat. It appears that \* someone \* has understood atleast part of what I was trying to say once. (It’s not common) _And I also wager that with this paraphrasing it makes sense to others now_ ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/682 "2011-07-20T15:57:34Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > You include a quote by ATPG in this post that doesn’t seem to have anything to do with what you’re talking about otherwise. Did something get snipped? If so, what? Nope, I had just read his post and his lack of desire for a Silver Jan lynch and expressed my own opinion about the bandwagon on her. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/683 "2011-07-20T16:04:37Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Coached to do what, Ed? OMGUS all over the place, say “I’m town” a lot, and so on? Why? Just to fool contrarians like me? There are a lot more players out there who think my methods are nuts than who both agree with me and are willing to follow me, as evidenced by the bandwagon itself, which could well prevail today. I would not call such a thing good coaching; I’d call it bad coaching. > > To say I have issues with this comment of yours is to put it mildly. Clarify, please. mostly, what AskThePizzaGuy described as ‘reasonableness’ Most of her playstyle seems quite similar to other games. And, yes, to fool contrarians like you. When a newer Scum posts in the Scum thread, they’ll often post their ideas there first, and through comments from Scumbuddies, solidify their reasoning, or they may get some clarification from a Scumbuddy and come back in and explain themselves better. Granted, I’m not fully vested in the Silver Jan bandwagon , though I do like the conversation it has generated among quite a few players. Hopefully, at some point in the game, these discussion might prove useful. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/684 "2011-07-20T16:06:14Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > I especially didn’t like the “I was right about the mislynch and you were wrong part.” Scum have a much greater ability to be correct about lynches than Town does (since they already know who is Scum), and so might use their ‘good’ voting record as evidence of Towniness Agreed; it’s the main reason why I haven’t suggested my prediction Kelly was townie should be used in consideration of my status. And if Jan dies and I’m correct as well, it’s still not evidence in my favor. What would look really odd is if I were right on everyone, including the scums, most of the way through the game. That reeks of Perfect Information Syndrome. That is a bad argument by Silver. It’s also a tempting argument for a newbie player to make because they may not realize how bad it is. ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/685 "2011-07-20T16:06:20Z")
> [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > so you feel that i am therefore more suspicious than **Pizza**? do you agree then with **Pizza**? am i the only one with who posts like this? this really is weak reasoning. i’ve seen this logic lynch Town more than scum. if my posts seem inadequate, it takes time for me to digest the sometimes long and convoluted posts here. your posts haven’t been spectacular either you know, a lot of agreeing with other people and commenting on mechanics. While, like Stanislaus, I feel we might be getting suckered, I do tend to think that Pizza is Town. At the time of your vote, I had reviewed the posts of several players, all of whom had about the same number of posts as you and me. I felt yours looked the most like scum trying to hide in plain sight. Since then, I have reviewed some other players including our lynch leaders. I still feel you are more likely to be scum than they are. > [@](#): > > you like **MentalGuy** ’s weak case? this is an even weaker vote. > > * * * > > interestingly enough, at the time of these two votes, this tied me with **Septimus**. this may be of interest later since right now it’s **Silver Jan** and **Pizza** who are numbers one and two in voting. Let’s point out that at the time we tied you for the lynch lead, that meant you had a total of 2 votes, with over 3 days left in the Day. I wasn’t trying to save septimus (although I do find the case against him weak), I was just voting. ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/686 "2011-07-20T16:10:19Z")
> [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > are you voting for Pizza because of the ‘obvious reasons’ phrase he used in voting **Septimus**? i believe **Pizza** was just using **Septimus** ’ words against him. I am not sure if you mean to imply that Pizza’s vote was justified because of what septimus said, but to clarify, septimus never actually used the “obvious reasons” phrase as a justification. He said it looked like he should have said that since he got heat for his case being overkill. > [@](#): > > there is actually a third vote scum theory. it’s in one of the wiki sites. personally, i doubt scum would use that argument as that theory is outdated. In a case like this where it is actively being discussed it will be on the scum’s mind and not be as useful, but I don’t think it is outdated. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/687 "2011-07-20T16:11:10Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > Which particular ways were you referring to? > > Please give specific examples. I want to see if I can imagine the kind of coaching you’re talking about. At least some of those examples, I can’t. > > (This is an example of trying to figure out if you’re lying to me or if you really believe what you’re saying.) > > No rush, but if you take all day to respond I’ll know you’ve carefully formulated a reply and it may be less genuine. 😉 I know you’re here, though, special ed, and I beg your indulgence on very specific examples of things Jan has said which could have been coached. It’s going to color my opinion of you for a while if you can’t back up this comment. I read your response to Normal and it’s too generic. (Apologies if you’re working on that presently, I just feel the need to crack the whip a bit, as my opinion on this is time sensitive. I’m a demanding pizza man sometimes.) ☹ ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/688 "2011-07-20T16:15:13Z")
Well, I caught up to the end finally, and now there are more posts… Hopefully my style of posting as I cattch up and responding to individual posts is at least annoying someone. > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > Which particular ways were you referring to? > > Please give specific examples. I want to see if I can imagine the kind of coaching you’re talking about. At least some of those examples, I can’t. > > (This is an example of trying to figure out if you’re lying to me or if you really believe what you’re saying.) > > No rush, but if you take all day to respond I’ll know you’ve carefully formulated a reply and it may be less genuine. 😉 When I’ve seen Silver Jan play, as both Town and as Scum, she gotten quite defensive under pressure. And she’s certainly felt the pressure. She seems much more calm now. Granted, this could be due to experience. As you play mroe games, pressure, dying, and even losing don’t seem as important as they do in early games. You’ve been there already. However, Silver Jan is also one who asks for help in a Scum thread. I can see her getting a few ideas to make her appear more calm and reasonable. (And maybe venting her frustration in the Scum thread instead of the game thread.) It’s nothing concrete, just a little ping I’m getting. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/689 "2011-07-20T16:19:38Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Yes, if there is a doc, there is a possibility that they are paranoid. Thanks for clarifying. I found it funny (haha funny, not hmm, scummy? funny) how the conversation past that point as if a paranoid doc were fact for this game instead of a hypothetical. I was wondering if I’d missed something. > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > I’ve even claimed detective and gotten scum lynched when I wasn’t detective. That’s extremely scummy, but, my philosophy is to play just as dirty as the scums do and beat them at their own game. Yeah, don’t do that here. The real detective will almost certainly counter-claim you, and then I bang my head against a wall (if town) or laugh my butt off (if not) as appropriate. > [@](#): > > Looking less bad than others is basically the number one overall strategy of being scum. QFT. > [@](#): > > Ask Normal Phase how often people have that reaction. I don’t change my style and it always leaves people with a “but if I let him live and he wins, I’ll feel suckered”. This leads to me dying moar. 😃 This is true. > [@](#): > > I’m kinda interested that septimus seems to be avoiding voting for me or commenting much on my jihad against him. I don’t know whether that’s because he’s more interested in trying to solve the game, or because he feels it’s the best way to avoid the magnifying glass. Time will tell on that. He did vote for you. I’ll give you the not commenting much part, because he didn’t. ShadowFacts has been doing the inverse, commenting but not voting. This is my favorite reaction to see. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Also, Normal Phase, your double-triple-quadruple posting which I’ve come to tolerate and find cute could be cut down slightly by doing the above kind of reply. > > 😛 Love you lots. Yeah, bite me. The last page was sort of ridiculous, I’ll admit. > [@Mahaloth](#): > > \*\*Please bleach votes when quoting them, especially in a game with multivotes. \*\* Sorry. I was trying, but that one post slipped through. > [@special\_ed](#): > > However, by his own admission, he tends to survive games better ass Scum than as Town, which means he must appear to be Town quite well in games in which he is Scum, probably playing with people who are familiar to him. > > So, your opinion may be tainted. I’m curious, in games in which you two have played together, how good are you at determining when he is Scum in general? Better than most. Recently I haven’t seen him as scum except when we’ve both been scum (on opposing teans or the same one), and that distorts opinions a bit. When we’ve both been town, I’ve made rather a career lately of being the person who’s trying to tell everyone else they’ve got him wrong (minus my own odd moments of paranoia). But I’ve gotten him a few times in the past, and he’s gotten me. The easiest tell for him is that over-towniness he mentioned, and he probably is good enough to avoid it around me anymore. But he also has a certain level of BS when scum that I’m not seeing here, particularly when trying to avoid a lynch. Mostly, though, what I’m seeing so far here is an aggressively TOWN (as opposed to “townie”) version of the Pizzaguy, and pending further developments I’m not remotely paranoid enough that it’s fake to want him dead. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/690 "2011-07-20T16:21:14Z")
Also I see septimus \*has \*voted for me; I think I meant to say he’s not using his second vote either on me or anyone else and hasn’t commented much since. Another case of me not checking what I’m saying before I hit “post” ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/691 "2011-07-20T16:28:12Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > Replies to **special ed, Lightfoot, Weedy, Stanislaus, and ShadowFacts,** spoilered for less clutter. > > \ > > Also, Normal Phase, your double-triple-quadruple posting which I’ve come to tolerate and find cute could be cut down slightly by doing the above kind of reply. > > 😛 Love you lots. Not that you asked, but I personally would rather read a number of consecutive posts, each addressing a single player of thought, than one long post addressing multiple topics. I just find it easier to read, and easier to refer back to if necessary. ---
**Author:** ![LightFoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LightFoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LightFoot)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/692 "2011-07-20T16:34:57Z")
While I have time I will share some of my thoughts on \*\* Silver Jan \*\* The number of references to her ‘townie-ness’ is taxing……When I’m plain ol vanilla Town and headed to the gallows I try to create more friction. Share my suspicions…. Rile things up if possible. Two different Days \*\* Silver Jan\*\* has been very near the gallows and I have not seen much substance. ( Kelly flipped Town as you recall.) ToDay I am still not seeing much from \*\* Silver Jan \*\* . Since she was near lynch yesterday why didn’t she come out swinging at the beginning of ToDay with more? \*\* askthepizzaguy \*\* even with his quirkiness appears to still be fighting the good fight while looking at the rope. He sounds more Town than the player who hired the town crier to proclaim her ‘Towniness’ I’m not voting my second at this time. I will see how the Day spins . ---
**Author:** ![LightFoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LightFoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LightFoot)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/693 "2011-07-20T16:36:51Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Not that you asked, but I personally would rather read a number of consecutive posts, each addressing a single player of thought, than one long post addressing multiple topics. I just find it easier to read, and easier to refer back to if necessary. I’ll agree with this (not that anyone asked) And, I will add easier to quote and make sense with. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/694 "2011-07-20T16:39:40Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > mostly, what AskThePizzaGuy described as ‘reasonableness’ So what do you envision that she could have been told to produce such an effect, and how would it differ from what she’d be doing anyway? The OMGUS votes are not reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/695 "2011-07-20T17:02:43Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > So what do you envision that she could have been told to produce such an effect, and how would it differ from what she’d be doing anyway? > > The OMGUS votes are not reasonable. I can imagine her being coached not to vent her frustration at the votes she’s getting inn the thread, but just to respond to them calmly. That would be very different to how I remember her reacting to pressure before. When I was talking about “reasonable” I was using the phrase as AskThePizzaGuy used it in his analysis post of Silver Jan’s posts. It really had little to do with her votes. And I’m not accusing all of her response as being coached, just that it’s possible that she’s getting some coaching to appear more reasonable. I’m puzzled by the insistence on evidence of this coaching or how it is happening. I’m not privy to it if it is occurring. It’s a thought. It’s quite possible that she’s getting coached. I’ll admit it’s also possible that she’s not being coached and is genuinely Town. I’m just not going to take at face value AskThePizzaGuy’s assertion that her arguments seem reasonable for a town Silver Jan, especially given my experience with her play. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/696 "2011-07-20T17:04:47Z")
@AskThePizzaGuy and Normal Phase How would your individual play be different if you were on the Scum team together? I’m not insinuating you are. In fact, I think it quite unlikely. I’m just curious to see your responses. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/697 "2011-07-20T17:19:34Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > How did you get from here to a casual “for obvious reasons” vote on ATPG, Septimus? You’re criticizing his approach to the game, but to what extent do you really believe him to be scum? Your vote is part of a bandwagon that looks capable of getting him lynched; do you really stand behind that vote? If so, why? I don’t see where this sentiment is coming from at all. In[Post 525](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14034115&postcount=525) \*\*Septimus \*\*says about **Askthepizzaguy** , “I’ve mixed feelings about whether to renew my vote against you. I have no other strong scum candidates, but some of your zaniness and reversals do not seem like what Scum would do. I’m sure you’re capable of a deep double-think “wifom” game as Scum, but would you attempt that in your first game as a relative newcomer to SDMB?” As I read it he’s saying that \*\*ATPG’s \*\*behavior does not seem ‘like what Scum would do’, which is not quite the same as saying \*\*ATPG \*\*is ‘not Scum’. \*\*Septimus \*\*is expressing suspicion of \*\*ATPG \*\*here, but he also has some reservations. **Septimus** ’ next post was [Post 572](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14038200&postcount=572), in which he votes for **Askthepizzaguy**. \*\*Septimus \*\*never uses “for obvious reasons” as part of his justification for his vote. He dioes explain his reasons for his vote, however; “He’s never made a real case against me, but he wants others to think he did. Maybe he’s “just being anti-Town” but we can’t give that a completely free ride. (Otherwise, Scum could get credibility by acting anti-Town! )” Maybe it’s an OMGUS vote, maybe it’s a weak vote, but he definitely gives reasoniong besides “for obvious reasons”. While I’m on the subject of **Askthepizzaguy** , let me say that I very much dislike the approach he has taken to this game. Personally, I have a gut feeling that he is Town. Unfortunately, he has provided a fair number of good reasons why he should be lynched (e.g. hypocritical play, unjustified votes, bragging about what a fantastic player he is as Scum). He would have us believe these are designed to make himself an irresistable target for the Scum to vote, but it also makes him a pretty tempting target for town as well. And since he’s told us how nearly unstoppable he is as Scum, can we trust him here? He seems to be playing WIFOM with Town. As I say, my gut feeling is that he’s Town, but a part of me wants to see him lynched anyway, because I don’t want to implicitly approve of his playstyle by allowing him to continue it. And whether he winds up Town, Scum, or 3rd-Party, I’m afrain that he has painted himself such an attractive target that we will ultimately learn nothing from the votes against him. ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/698 "2011-07-20T17:21:33Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > I remember one from yesterDay and had the same reaction; have there been others? This was to me about Plankton pointing out rather weak PISes. Honestly, I thought I remembered three times, but when I went back and looked at his posts, I just found these two. > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > So the Scum have a Roleblocker, then? When did you discover that little tidbit? > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > \ > > **LightFoot** , what made you include this line? > > If you are Town, then it stands to reason that you would serve ‘the greater good’. > If you are Scum pretending to be Town, then again it would be a given that you would take such a position (or claim to). > The only reason anyone would have to explicitly state such a position is if they are a 3rd-Party, and are trying to ‘make a deal’ with the town for their continued survival. ---
**Author:** ![gnarlycharlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@gnarlycharlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarlycharlie)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/699 "2011-07-20T17:23:06Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Can you demonstrate this? I didn’t pay any attention to Mental Guy on day one; if there’s something there I’d appreciate seeing it. > > But I disagree with your characterization of his case on you being weak. Avoidance of scum hunting while still being visibly present is characteristic more of scum than of town, unless your name is Inner Stickler. Your noise-to-signal ratio on day one was extremely high. i’d like to demonstrate but i don’t know how to put all of one person’s posts together unless i do it manually. i looked up all his posts and went through them and found that he’s basically doing what he is accusing me of. as for avoiding scum hunting, it’s not deliberate. perhaps you can recall how i play as town and i really tend to observe a lot and get clarification and vote accordingly rather than cross-examine other players. i think like **Silver Jan** , i too still need to develop my scum hunting skills. > [@](#): > > I’m not even sure what you’re trying to insinuate here. That I’m scumbuddies with Septimus and was so threatened by ATPG’s two votes on him that I engaged in horrible me-too-ing just to tie it up? actually i didn’t think **Septimus** was suspicious. i felt that getting players, presumably both town, to be lynch leaders would be beneficial to scum. i didn’t think you were trying to save him. that was too early in the Day and perhaps too obvious tactic for a seasoned player like you. ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/700 "2011-07-20T17:24:58Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Followup to ATPG’s post 599, re: Septimus. Some formatting adjusted. > > How did you get from here to a casual “for obvious reasons” vote on ATPG, Septimus? You’re criticizing his approach to the game, but to what extent do you really believe him to be scum? Your vote is part of a bandwagon that looks capable of getting him lynched; do you really stand behind that vote? If so, why? Since I had to leave for a while this morning, Suburban has already addressed this, but septimus did not vote “for obvious reasons”. He just said he should have said that since his case was called overkill. It was Pizza that voted “for obvious reasons”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=36)