# De'endee Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 6, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052 "2011-07-06T16:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/921 "2011-07-24T20:30:05Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Wow, **Askthepizzaguy** , that was fun. And bizarre. I’ve wondered what it’d be like to have my own posts analyzed the way others have. What a snivelling toadie I sound like, especially early on. However, before I start, I should mention that I find I can’t defend myself without mentioning that I’m a newbie so could I please get a pass from everyone who’s sick of my harping on that? So no “OMG shut the fuck _up_ about your inexperience, **choie**!” related this post, please? That wouldn’t be cricket. > > I think what’s bothering you is that we’re two antithetical Mafia personality types: you’re meta-analytical-aggressive-paranoid-experienced, and I’m emotional-apologetic-insecure-inexperienced. I think we’re destined to have different play preferences. Either that or if this were a romantic comedy we’d be at each other’s throats for the whole movie until the realization that we’re actually deeply in love. 😃 > > Anyway, addressing the “she says she’s new but she’s clearly read lots of threads so why is she claiming ignorance OMG what the hell how could this be?” accusation: I just don’t see reading old threads as being true experience. You can read _Moby Dick_ and _Horatio Hornblower_ all you want, but if you go out on a boat for the first time, you damn well better accept that you’re no old salt and show due humility and respect to the experienced crewpeople, because otherwise you’ll get keel-hauled for putting the others in danger (and just for being an annoying pain in the ass wannabe). Or to put it another way, I’ve watched _L.A. Law_ and _Law and Order_, and used to gobble up live _CourtTV_ cases. Doesn’t make me ready to try my own case, and if I’m ever in that situation I may state some general ideas I’ve learned from the shows (especially the real cases from CourtTV), and hell, some of the strategy might even be sound, but I’d still be an absolute moron to go in without admitting my neophyteness, asking for advice and realizing just how different a real-life courtroom is. While it’s easy to counter one analogy with another, the point is not the validity of the analogy but of what it is comparing it to. You’ve spent enough time reading old threads that you feel confident enough to say something is usual or unusual, and even reference other games as evidence. Given this is a blind guessing game, not brain surgery or court cases, the sports analogy is more appropriate. I myself read games before playing games, and I jumped right in aggressively and made big accusations based on what seemed normal or abnormal just from my prior reading experience. > [@](#): > > One more analogy: watching porn doesn’t prepare a virgin for real-life sex. At least, I _hope_ all y’all know that. 😃 This much I do know. > [@](#): > > So yes. For me, playing the game _is_ very, very different from watching it. It just is. > > The dual personalities you’re seeing of **choie** are easily explained: part of me, the real-life part that is intrinsically, pathetically people-pleasing and insecure, uncertain of her talents and apologetic for breathing – that part is the one who doesn’t want to make a mistake in front of you guys, and even more important, doesn’t want to mess up everyone else’s good time. So she asks for a lot of clarifications and is polite and thanks people for being helpful, because that’s what you do in social interactions (I do it everywhere on the forum, not just in games), and she makes it clear that she knows her opinions aren’t facts, and she pre-emptively assumes people are gonna be annoyed by her ineptitude so she apologizes for it beforehand. > > The second **choie** , the one who writes gruesome gothic romantic suspense novels and loves gibfest FPS shooters like “Just Cause 2” because it lets me get my pent-up aggressions out (and being such a wimpy insecure type, you damn right I have lots of pent-up aggression!) – that’s the part that enjoyed reading the old Mafia threads. That’s the part that tries to fit in and play the game the way I see others playing it, and to get past my innate wimphood because I really _do_ have opinions of my own. Gleaned from past games, and also from my gut instincts. Mostly the latter. Given how deeply entrenched this behavior pattern seems to be, it’s plausible that’s part of who you are outside of the game. > [@](#): > > To be frank, one of my opinions is that **pizza** ’s style of play was making the game less fun (for me) to watch and play in. I’m sorry. So yes, I stated as much, and vociferously, because _you_ seem to respond to that type of post. Probably because _you_ are an awfully aggressive and melodramatic kinda player. Which is why it’s amusing that you were so taken aback by my own similar addressing of you, calling it “spittle-flecked.” (I mean, seriously? Someone who’s been openly demanding others’ deaths was so wounded by some heavy sarcasm? Talking about dishing it out but not taking it!) > > Anyway, the other reason I responded to you the way I did – and this is also related to why I’ve repeated the newbie info so often – because to be honest, sometimes in the thread, I’ve felt like I’m on people’s Ignore list. I _never_ believe people will remember, or take note, of stuff I say. This wasn’t helped when none of my questions (about the Mayor and the first-killed teacher, for example) were answered. Sure, the Mayor/teacher stuff was probably unimportant color. But I dunno, **Astral** and **Mahaloth** are taking the time to write this stuff, presumably for a reason, so I was trying to be useful and see if maybe they were hiding info that no one else was picking up on. > > Speaking of which, the reason I was harping on the roleplaying part is because, well, I thought that was the theme of the game. My favorite parts of the **Weird West** and **LOTR** games were the theme-related parts, and I was assuming that a D&D roleplaying game would have relevant color. Some of the colorful bits that **Astra** added seemed purposeful to me: the extreme youth of the first-killed teacher, and the somewhat callous behavior on the part of the adventurers vs. the townspeople. > > (Here’s the sort of color that _I_ notice but probably doesn’t mean anything: how come the Mayor spoke up so firmly in **Scathach** ’s defense, recognizing him instantly as a townie, yet when **Silver Jan** was brought before him, the Mayor didn’t reveal that he knew **Jan**? Doesn’t this guy know his own constituents, especially in a town with only 21 inhabitants? Yeesh! I can’t speak for the rest of the townies, but I know _I_ ain’t gonna be voting this guy in for a second term!) > > Finally to address **pizza** ’s whole post, seems to me you’re not pointing out anything I’ve done that’s actually _scummy_. Inconsistent posting on my part (which I think is easily explained by my inexperience maybe, but have I done anything that’s anti-town? This is a bad but effective defense. You’re changing the argument. The behavior itself isn’t necessarily damaging to the town. That’s not what I’ve argued. The argument is that your behavior is a deliberate act to deflect criticism because you’re hoping not to make a bad mistake on your first outing… as a scumbag. You’re a far more dangerous opponent than you’re pretending to be. This defense of yours leaves me unsatisfied, but is very well written. It does the same sort of thing you’ve been doing- admit that the criticism is correct. Just seems like a defense mechanism. Then followed up with \*masterful \*changing the subject. No matter what alignment you have, no one is going to think of you as a lightweight or a newbie after this. You don’t even seem slightly perturbed. Impressive. \<----\*Not \*sarcastic. 🆒 > [@](#): > > I don’t think I have, or at least, I certainly haven’t done so purposely. I guess the mislynches of **Jan** and **Kelly** count as anti-Town, so that’s in his favor. Oh wait, **pizza** also mentions my alleged perfect information about **septimus**. But that doesn’t make sense to me at all. If I had PIS about **septimus** (presumably because I’m scum and somehow knew he’s town w/some power role), why the _hell_ wouldn’t I have kept my mouth shut and let the lynch roll forward? Wouldn’t it have been better for the scum to let a doc get lynched? The baddies try to lynch the power roles, don’t they? So assuming that’s we’re supposed to believe – that **septimus** is the town doc – a Scum choie would be joining the **septimus** bandwagon. I’ll get back to this after work. But essentially your defense here is “why would I do such a scummy thing?” Well crafted, but ever so slimy. You’d do it because you’re scummy and you didn’t think ahead. > [@](#): > > This Morning I’m really too confused to vote for anyone yet. I’ve been wrong twice and I’m not going to jump on any bandwagons because apparently my instincts aren’t working in the right direction. I’m certainly not gonna seek a retributive vote against you, **pizza** , though one could sorta see your own sudden turn against me as an OMGUS of its own. But in fairness, you’ve done a lot of analysis and that doesn’t fit the OMGUS pattern as I understand it. I actually do understand why my posts aren’t making sense to you. They’re the work of a shy person who’s trying to be a good player and fit into the game dynamic of better, or certainly more confident, players. > > Well, anyway, this is my initial defense. Yep, it’s haphazard, emotional, apologetic, somewhat snarky, curious, and rambling. In other words, status quo. This defense proves that choie is not a weak person who is helpless. No matter what her alignment, these kinds of slippery and subtle deflection will serve her extremely well. Be back in 9 hours. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/922 "2011-07-24T22:08:10Z")
I don’t think it’s likely that both choie and Septimus are mafia given the latter’s snuggling of the former yesterDay. (It’s possible either could be a third party.) I’d like ATPG and SP both to comment on how they feel about that, given they’re currently questioning both players. The content of the choie case (and everything else) still has to wait. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/923 "2011-07-25T01:17:42Z")
Septimus: Given his claim, his behaviour yesterday makes sense to me. It seems to me that his claim is testable by vig, but there’s a lot of ifs there. Choie: I agree with ATPG that choie is very uneven, and very defensive. Could be newbie nerves. I think her taunting of Silver Jan was a bit odd. She must have been much surer of her case than I usually am. Or it could be scum gloating. tentatively:\*\* vote choie\*\* At this point, I am also going to **vote pedescribe**. Yesterday, he parked two votes early on, and then disappeared. I would like to see something a bit more constructive from him today. Still need to poke around a bit more, when I have time later. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/924 "2011-07-25T01:33:10Z")
> [@Weedy](#): > > Septimus: Given his claim, his behaviour yesterday makes sense to me. It seems to me that his claim is testable by vig, but there’s a lot of ifs there. Just realised that the vig idea is a very bad one :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/925 "2011-07-25T02:48:05Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Assuming Vig did try to Kill me last Night, I’m just Vanilla now anyway. This statement just makes me more suspicious. Scotsman roles modconfirm the player. I would expect a bulletproof role to be the same or to at least be alerted if they are attacked. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/926 "2011-07-25T03:19:31Z")
\*\*Vote Count: Septimus(4): Hirka, Normalphase, Innerstickler, Stanislaus Shadowfacts(1): Hirka Choie(2): Askthepizza, Weedy Pedescribe(1): Weedy\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirka_T_Bawa)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/927 "2011-07-25T03:21:49Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > This statement just makes me more suspicious. Scotsman roles modconfirm the player. I would expect a bulletproof role to be the same or to at least be alerted if they are attacked. I do agree with this, from the mafia Wiki’s I’ve read, most mods sent a message saying something like “a bullet hit your vest” or whatever. If he doesn’t know for sure, that makes me hesident that he was targeted… Now, that could mean: 1. The vig didn’t target him for some reason 2. He is lying about his claim 3. Opal used some sort of power on him (sorry, couldn’t resist) 4. We might not have a vig to target him in the first place 5. He might be some sort of other power role, and is using bullet proof as a cover 6. He is scum, trying to get away with trying to save himself at the last second yesterday. He posted his vote at 6:59pm yesterday, the literal last second. That makes me highly suspicious. If he was telling the truth, and just saw the change in votes, and posted after watching a DVD, I wouldn’t expect the change of vote to be EXACTLY at 6:59… if it was at 6:55, or even 6:58, I might give him the benefit of the doubt… But, 6:59? That to me looks like he was watching the clock before hitting submit, and to me, that is scummy. My vote stands. ---
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/928 "2011-07-25T03:35:51Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > […]I still have WIFOM-y issues with the scum killing Special Ed over you if you’re not scum, given they must know you’re a power role in that case, and must have considered vig or (non-self-protecting) doc as possibilities. […] I was sure that Ed was scum – particularly after the Silver Jan flip. It seemed like he spent most of the day yesterDay, pointing out her scummy ways and then ended up not voting for her. I was ready to vote him again toDay. I am not sure what to make of Septimus’s claim. It’s certainly has some advantages as a fake scum role. No need to explain why the scum aren’t killing you at night. No way for the town to prove the role, except by lynching. I don’t find his last minute vote unsettling. I was, unfortunately, unable to get back for EOD, but had I been around, I would have expected Septimus to change his vote to save himself, whether he was town or scum. I agree that it seems unlikely that both Choie and Septimus are scum. PizzaGuy, you’ve made a case on both of them. I’d like to hear your opinion. edited to fix quote ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/929 "2011-07-25T04:42:30Z")
Geeze I really had no idea I was coming across the way I [del]was[/del] am coming across. Live and learn! That’s part of the process, I guess. > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > Given this is a blind guessing game, not brain surgery or court cases, the sports analogy is more appropriate. I myself read games before playing games, and I jumped right in aggressively and made big accusations based on what seemed normal or abnormal just from my prior reading experience. From what little I know of you in this thread, this aggressive style doesn’t surprise me. 🙂 I’m more tentative, to put it mildly. I’m very conscious of hubris or presumption; to me, aside from selfishness or lack of compassion, those are the least attractive qualities one can have in a social context. > [@](#): > > This is a bad but effective defense. You’re changing the argument. Well, with respect, my intent was to change the argument to one that I think is far more relevant and important to my fellow townies: to ask y’all to focus not on my wishy-washy style, but rather on my actual intent/behavior. (Also, how can a defense be “bad” but also “effective”?) Good God, somewhere in the Forbidden thread, Jan must be giggling her ass off at this. 😃 > [@](#): > > The behavior itself isn’t necessarily damaging to the town. That’s not what I’ve argued. The argument is that your behavior is a deliberate act to deflect criticism because you’re hoping not to make a bad mistake on your first outing… as a scumbag. Well, you’ve got it 99% right. It’s the last three words that are wrong. And the problem with your argument is that one can just as easily – and far more correctly – leave off those last three words and simply say I’m hoping not to bad mistake on my first outing, end of story. (Especially since as you say yourself, my behavior isn’t “necessarily” damaging – a smudgy way of saying “it’s not damaging,” IOW!). > [@](#): > > You’re a far more dangerous opponent than you’re pretending to be. This defense of yours leaves me unsatisfied, but is very well written. It does the same sort of thing you’ve been doing- admit that the criticism is correct. Just seems like a defense mechanism. Then followed up with \*masterful \*changing the subject. > > No matter what alignment you have, no one is going to think of you as a lightweight or a newbie after this. You don’t even seem slightly perturbed. > > Impressive. \<----\*Not \*sarcastic. 🆒 Dang. Now I almost wish I _were_ scum, because then I could accept your assessment of me as some kind of strategic wunderkind. Alas, the truth is you should be taking me at face value, which dials me back down to wishy-washy. As far as not being perturbed… It’s a mafia game. I’ve seen where getting hysterical and flailly gets you, and it ain’t pretty. Plus, I’m almost in shock to have generated any discussion at all, and I find the idea that I’m good enough to be scum my first time out rather boosting to the ol’ ego. But boy are you gonna be disappointed when it’s flipping time. It’ll like Percy Blakeny turning out to be a genuine fop instead of the Scarlet Pimpernel. ☹ > [@](#): > > Well crafted, but ever so slimy. You’d do it because you’re scummy and you didn’t think ahead. So wait. I’ve expertly crafted a dual personality but… didn’t think ahead. I’m one helluva sloppy Macchiavelli! > [@](#): > > This defense proves that choie is not a weak person who is helpless. No matter what her alignment, these kinds of slippery and subtle deflection will serve her extremely well. Heh. Well, thanks, I guess. I can’t help remembering the exchange in _Broadcast News_ between Tom, the slick but shallow newsreader and Aaron, the less polished but brilliant (and snarky) reporter. Aaron has been being consistently bitchy/resentful toward Tom’s meteoric rise to news anchor. Near the end of the film, normally goodnatured Tom pays Aaron this backhanded compliment: Tom: I’m going to miss you… You’re a prick. In a good way. I’m sorry. Aaron (pleased): No, I liked how that made me sound! * * * And now a question for a comment made by a couple of others: > [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > I don’t think it’s likely that both choie and Septimus are mafia given the latter’s snuggling of the former yesterDay. > [@TexCat](#): > > I agree that it seems unlikely that both Choie and Septimus are scum. PizzaGuy, you’ve made a case on both of them. I’d like to hear your opinion. This probably sounds strange considering I’m the topic of suspicion here, but what the heck, I’m never gonna learn if I don’t ask questions: Given that there are/were 21 of us, which means, what, 4 or 5 scum – why is it unlikely that both me and **septimus** would be scum? The same argument was made re: my suspicions of **Silver Jan** and **Normal Phase** , and for similar reasons: one was defending the other. At some point any two people could be scum, couldn’t they? Do scum _always_ throw each other under the bus? As it happens, you’re probably right. I mean, I _know_ **Silver Jan** and I are townies – ironic considering I suspected her (_ave atque vale_, Jan!). I just don’t follow the logic that makes you guys so sure that only one at most of these pairs was scummy. For that matter, how come my defense of **septimus** is “snuggling” but **Normal Phase** ’s defenses of **Silver Jan** and **Askthepizzaguy** aren’t? (I don’t mean that defensively, I’m genuinely curious as to the subtleties of meaning here.) Hmm, maybe these basic questions should be in a “Mafia thread for newbies” thread. Sorry if they don’t belong in the actual game thread. * * * > [@Weedy](#): > > Choie: I agree with ATPG that choie is very uneven, and very defensive. Could be newbie nerves. I think her taunting of Silver Jan was a bit odd. She must have been much surer of her case than I usually am. Or it could be scum gloating. Y’know, I was joking the other day when I implied to **Texcat** that I was insulted that s/he’d tarred me with the OMGUS brush. But _this_ genuinely upsets me. Was I really **taunting** Jan? I don’t see that at all. All I remember is her having OMGUSed the heck out of me for a few (real) days and then my (erroneously) thinking that she’d double-voted me and locked her vote in, after which I admit I found it kind of ironic that she’d put herself in a bad position as lynch leader because of that. I mean it seems only human to have been amused by the thought of her being hoist by her own petard – her unjust OMGUSing and harping on me for a few days turning out to be her undoing. When I was corrected about it, I apologized. Sure, she overreacted to my commens, but frankly (not to speak ill of the dead) overreacting was her M.O. Anyway here I am, overreacting to **Weedy**. My point is, if I was really coming across as _taunting_, that’s highly unattractive and I’m not surprised you’re finding me scummy. So once again, my apologies to Jan if she’s still reading this. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/930 "2011-07-25T05:07:56Z")
AND now that I’m done defending my innocence, I’m gonna turn my tack to proper scumhunting. I’m still hung up on **Normal Phase** ’s early claim on Day One. Since almost no one else seems bothered by this, I gather it isn’t as suspicious as it seemed to me at the time. But everything I’ve read indicates that it’s a bad, no-good, really bad and awful idea for townies to claim unless we’re actually at the point of being led up the gallows. And even then, supposedly, it’s not a great thing to do. One poster in a thread God knows where (I read so many of them in the past month, I really lost track) that unless forced to claim, vanilla townies are supposed to take the virtual bullet for our team – or let another suspect VT take that bullet – rather than give away the claim for the scummy folks to examine. (IIRC, someone even said they prefer a VT to stand mute rather than claim, even when it leads to their lynching. “Tis a far better thing I do” and all that.) It just nags at me that **Normal Phase** blurted out her claim the way she did, so incredibly early. I know her defense was that it was to stop the alleged discussion-by-implication of the vanilla character sheets. But that to me doesn’t make any freakin’ sense. The logic eludes me: her rationale was that rather than having people make veilled guesses about vanilla claim sheets, she’d… post an actual vanilla claim sheet, right after **Silver Jan** had posted her own allegedly actual vanilla claim sheet. And this would somehow be safer. For scum to see _two_ actual sheets. On Day One. The thing is, originally **Normal** was supposedly defending **Jan** by backing up her claim. Her claim certainly seemed to placate a few people, so it did in fact work. But here’s a thought. What if instead, **Normal** was piggybacking on **Jan**? Say **Normal** was scum. She knows **Jan** is Town, claiming vanilla. That’s what **Normal** wants everyone to think _she_ is, right? So she quickly jumps in with the claim that matches **Jan** ’s. And thus, rather than **Normal** ’s claim confirming **Jan** ’s, it was actually **Jan** ’s claim that was being used to validate a fake vanilla town claim from **Normal**. Possible? Crazy? What the heck. I voted for her on Day Two, and I’m gonna renew it. **vote Normal Phase** ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/931 "2011-07-25T05:18:28Z")
Gah, I hope you are not really genuinely upset. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/932 "2011-07-25T06:00:30Z")
Hai, I’m back. Choie, if you’re still here, stick around if you would, I’d like to address you. Typing… ---
**Author:** ![gnarlycharlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@gnarlycharlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarlycharlie)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/933 "2011-07-25T06:16:04Z")
hi all. thanks for all your kind words. my dad’s making a strong recovery and should be out of the hospital by the end of the week. i’m now in the process of catching up. offhand, i see **Pizza** has made what i would consider the Berlin Wall of WOWs. i’m not ready to call it the Great Wall of China of WOWs because i suspect he’s made longer ones. 😃 good think you didn’t accuse **Choie** of being a coached newbie scum. you can get lynched for that. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/934 "2011-07-25T07:00:32Z")
So, as a guy who spends most of his working hours alone inside a vehicle with not a whole lot to think about except driving, I spent the last 9 hours or so weighing things back and forth in my mind. I hadn’t really put the septimus/choie thing at the forefront of it, I was more concerned with my own case on choie. You only get so many shots at this before you die and are silenced, and I made the case based on gut reaction and prior experience with certain behavior patterns. Thing is, I even admitted that choie’s behavior pattern seems quite deeply entrenched into her personality. Well I began comparing choie to my own first outing as mafia. I was playing intentionally in a way to act confident, and I wasn’t very good at it yet. I came across as cocky and out-of-touch (I know you’re surprised, TRY to contain it…) and I would argue my point of view no matter how dangerous it was for me. Within four rounds, my head rolled. I was much more useful to my team as a post-death distraction (dead could talk) because I was able to confuse people. Thing is, my personality wasn’t all that different from my first outing as townie. I still hadn’t mastered diplomacy (like I have now. I’m ever so good at managing my image now…) and that was just my way. In some ways, a lot of ways, choie reminds me of how I played when I first started, except- I did not act at all cautious about my death, I took it to the other extreme. I did not apologize for anything. I spoke until my speaking got me lynched. I still very much believe that choie is play acting. Perhaps outside of mafia games, in addition to reading them, she’s learned a thing or two about having a poker face. Some folks try to hide all emotion, and that’s their poker face. Other folks fake emotions to cover their real ones, and that’s their poker face. Choie is definitely playing WITH her poker face clearly set. I feel she is obfuscating intentionally. That said, a new player coming to the table armed with a poker face, armed with the gift of persuasive writing, and armed with at least some life experience manipulating people to her own advantage, that does not necessarily make choie scum. It just means she’s not a pushover, and will be that much harder to read. My reading of her got a positive indicator for scum necessarily because of two major things; I feel she’s acting and covering up something, and I feel she knew septimus was innocent ahead of time. The second one, because of her unusual break with the crowd after septimus demonstrated a scummy level of interest in staying alive, by defending septimus. This makes her look good in the eyes of septimus, and should septimus die and flip townie, it makes her look good even further. That said, that’s how I’d play it NOW, with experience. And I tend to feel an experienced player might do something like that themselves, not try to coach a newbie scum partner into trying such a maneuver. I think I’ve sold choie short, I do think that it’s maybe the case she wouldn’t try such a move because of how dangerous it is and because it doesn’t really help her towards her scum goal. It’s harder for a new player to leverage being right on septimus into staying alive. If anything, such an argument would really make it look like PIS. The first thing, I can already agree it is maybe just choie. All I can really tell from choie is that there’s more than meets the eye, and that she’s a master of deflection and she’s a cunning manipulator. That doesn’t mean she got a Lord of Slaughter role. She’s using her scummy-looking tools that come naturally to her to save herself from an early death. I can’t declare her innocent. Too much about it still rubs me the wrong way, **however** - (and the point of all this rubbish is coming) I’m prepared to play Devil’s Advocate Pizzaguy. Already I’m doing this for septimus, because I don’t want to be blinded by my own zeal. I want to see things from both perspectives. Suppose septimus and choie are in fact innocent, and I’m just arguing myself into a bad corner. What happens if I’m wrong? septimus and choie remain soft targets for the lynch, I get potentially picked off and therefore silenced, or suppose they die and flip townie and then I get lynched, we’ve now expended a couple days on Jan and Kelly, and a couple more on Pizza, septimus, and choie, perhaps. And no further to finding the scum. Given the game setup that we know of, there are several pro-town power roles. For balance, I’d estimate 3-4 Lords of Slaughter. We also have a fairly strong theory about a third party which probably is at least neutral and at worst and most likely, a threat to the town side. Given the players remaining and the above assumptions, that leads to: (Notes from prior) > [@](#): > > Normal Phase 112 > Askthepizzaguy 79 > Suburban Plankton 59 > LightFoot 41 > ShadowFacts 36 > choie 29 > Inner Stickler 26 > gnarlycharlie 23 > Stanislaus 23 > MentalGuy 20 > pedescribe 17 > septimus 16 > Weedy 15 > TexCat 13 > USCDiver 12 > Red Skeezix 11 > Hirka T’Bawa 10 17 players Assume 3-4 are Lords of Slaughter, 4 to play it safe. Assume 1-3 are neutral or worse Assume 3-4 town power roles or more Assume the rest are NPC townies. > [@](#): > > **Town NPC- Askthepizzaguy (claimed) [Insert yourself here if town-aligned NPC] > Town NPC- > Town NPC- > Town NPC- > Town NPC- > Town NPC- > Town Power- septimus (claimed bulletproof) > Town Power- LightFoot (claimed detective, blocked at night) > Town Power- > Town Power- > Neutral 3rd party- > Neutral 3rd party- > Neutral 3rd party- > Slaughter- > Slaughter- > Slaughter- > Slaughter-** If I picture the Lords of Slaughter as spread out on the activity chart, then unless it is Normal Phase, a Lord of Slaughter has been under heavy fire already. And even Normal has gotten some attention. However, if I picture them keeping to the lower half of the activity chart, then it becomes clear what’s happening. I’m the kind of guy who likes to analyze and make cases based on what I see. I like to be able to share the reasons why I am voting someone, and be as persuasive as I can in getting my points across. Then, some more objective people can weigh its merits and lynch or don’t lynch. Where I’m weaker, especially in the early game, is making cases on people who are playing deliberately to avoid analysis, scum tells, or anything controversial. Suppose the LoS are spread out. I’m pretty confident at least one will get exposed shortly for being an active loudmouth. But supposing they are not, then the upper tier of activity is populated with townies who are mostly suspecting each other. Meanwhile, a good 3-4 LoS and several more neutrals are going to take extreme advantage of the town’s divided status. With no pressure on them, they walk easily through the next round or two, and then the town’s numbers are dwindling and morale drops due to struggling and no progress. The longer a group like that goes unchallenged, the game becomes exponentially harder for the town, because they pose such a voting threat and probably have cover role powers. And we seem to be short a detective now because he can’t move at night. So we’re already fighting with one hand tied behind our backs, and assuming the townies are topheavy, we’re quite divided and focused on everyone besides who needs to die. If we want to win this game we need to hit a Lord of Slaughter now. That will remove one of their number and give us much to analyze. And it will also probably force the murders of some of our more suspicious townies who might have been a party to the death of such a Lord. So Devil’s advocate pizza says on the theory that choie is just being choie, septimus is a bulletproof, and no counterclaim for the detective, I’m betting that the Lords of Slaughter are in the lower half of the activity chart, watching and waiting as the townies kill each other off and grow ever more distrustful, wasting precious time and all their credibility on one another. Why would they do anything that rocks the boat? No, their winning move is to just barely play the game. Let pizza and the others ruin the town _for them_. And so all of this swirled in my brain as I drove, and I believe I could be mistaken on \*\*septimus \*\*AND **choie**. And I believe our Lords of Slaughter are being right proper gentlemen, uncontroversial, not so quiet as to attract attention, not so loud as to attract attention, not leading the town anywhere, so as to have to answer for bad lynches, and not especially trying to bus their valuable teammates so early… but possible to vote for them if it’s fairly certain they won’t die, for distancing purposes. And so presently, I am willing to give choie the benefit of the doubt for a round or two, as well as septimus. If they’re scum, they’re not going anywhere, obviously. Where does that leave me? I think at least 3 of your lords of slaughter are in here somewhere: gnarlycharlie 23 Stanislaus 23 MentalGuy 20 pedescribe 17 septimus 16 _Weedy 15_ TexCat 13 _USCDiver 12_ Red Skeezix 11 And I already am willing to give septimus the benefit of the doubt. Weedy and Diver are replacements and as such don’t fit the mold as “less active” players because they’ve only played part of the game (iirc). Not only this, but some of these players have already indicated their desire to destroy one another. I’ll have to check my notes, but examples being Red Skeezix finding pedescribe scummy, and Mental Guy versus gnarlycharlie and Stanislaus, gnarly versus Diver, and so on. If I had to pick my top 4 candidates from this group, I’d have to re-check. But one indicator you might be looking for is who is mentioned the least. Why mentioned the least? Because scumbags don’t want to have the names of their fellow scumbags being discussed at length every day. Just being in someone’s mind is enough to make them scummy to someone. Example: When I wasn’t thinking about choie, she wasn’t scummy to me. If I gave an analysis of whose names have been mentioned the least, I think you’d have a better than random chance of hitting scumbags. That’s sort of what I’m leaning, as Devil’s Advocate Pizzaguy, as my next move for this round. I’d kind of like to invite choie, septimus, and anyone else I’ve accused recently to join in on the festivities, because I still do kinda find you scummy, and your participation could serve to either make me decide one way or the other about you, or we could come to some sort of town-saving conclusion about where the heck the Lords of Slaughter are hiding their battleship. I want to sink it. Let me guess, this post is too long. Edit; holy poop it fits. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/935 "2011-07-25T07:04:06Z")
That’s good about your dad, charlie. Best wishes for a quick recovery. On to choie: > [@choie](#): > > \ > > Y’know, I was joking the other day when I implied to **Texcat** that I was insulted that s/he’d tarred me with the OMGUS brush. But _this_ genuinely upsets me. Was I really **taunting** Jan? I don’t see that at all. All I remember is her having OMGUSed the heck out of me for a few (real) days and then my (erroneously) thinking that she’d double-voted me and locked her vote in, after which I admit I found it kind of ironic that she’d put herself in a bad position as lynch leader because of that. > > I mean it seems only human to have been amused by the thought of her being hoist by her own petard – her unjust OMGUSing and harping on me for a few days turning out to be her undoing. When I was corrected about it, I apologized. Sure, she overreacted to my commens, but frankly (not to speak ill of the dead) overreacting was her M.O. > > Anyway here I am, overreacting to **Weedy**. My point is, if I was really coming across as _taunting_, that’s highly unattractive and I’m not surprised you’re finding me scummy. So once again, my apologies to Jan if she’s still reading this. This is all sounds like you are thinking of her as being on the opposite team to you. If you were on the same team, her mistakes are a problem for you, not a source of amusement. I know you had voted for her, but I find it surprising that you were _that_ certain you and she were on opposite sides. There was also > [@choie](#): > > Dang girlfriend. I’m so new at this I still have the sales tag on my “I’m a Hopeless Noob Mafia” t-shirt. But even I know that incessantly repeating “I’m town! I’m vanilla townie!” ain’t gonna convince anyone! 🙂 > > And **special ed** , that’s the second time you’ve gone “bah!” in my general vicinity. What did you object to in **SP** ’s post agreeing with me? I am not saying this is ‘unattractive’ or morally reprehensible, or that I’m voting for you because you seem like just the sort of nasty person who would be scum. I just find it very easy to imagine a scum player being pleased at the flounderings of a townie. Also, I really don’t like your vote on Normal. She explained why she claimed at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/936 "2011-07-25T07:13:07Z")
Okay that post I just made smacks of TL;DR In summary- I can see how most of that suspicion I had on choie could have been based on “I find this personality strange to me”, plus “this is typical of choie”, plus “Poker faces are worn by mafia” but they can also be worn by townies. Next part, I discuss how if I’m way off track about these talkative people being scum, it’s a fair bet that the Lords of Slaughter have adopted a classic middle-activity to low-activity strategy of allowing the talker townies to suspect each other into oblivion and give the middle-talker or low-talkers a pass to survive most of the early game unscathed… Why that’s especially powerful is because there will be precious little to analyze about these players later, when most of the suspicion will be from them towards the dead talkers, and these players will not have been themselves pressured, giving even less to analyze. I then conclude with a pet theory of mine that the scumbags will be mentioning each other’s names less, because it helps them all avoid the spotlight and discussion every round… which means, since most of the talker townies are accusing each other, the Lords of Slaughter should be among the least mentioned players in the game. I am now going to prepare a report which shows how often each player’s name has been mentioned, and by whom. This will take me a while, but I have a day off and I’m sort of a madman about these kinds of games. No sweat. It might actually be useful to read even if you think I’ve been anti-town so far. Consider it my “Hooray, I’m helping” moment. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/937 "2011-07-25T08:32:49Z")
I’m up to post 400 of 936. There was a LOT of talking day one… :o I’m not including tallies or mentions of players by non-players. I’m only counting posts, not number of mentions within a post. I’m not counting “you” or “him” as instances of a player’s name, but I am including abbreviations. Basically, only when a player is the subject of discussion, and how many times that player was a subject of discussion, and discussed by whom. So far, the results are velly intelesting. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/938 "2011-07-25T09:28:51Z")
This is a chore and a half, I’m up to the 600s. I don’t suppose there’s \*anyone \*out there, at all, who would like to chat with me to pass the time? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/939 "2011-07-25T10:35:47Z")
In the 800s. I’m roughly 200 posts an hour, will be done shortly. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/940 "2011-07-25T11:24:22Z")
Done. This is not 100% accurate, as I may have missed names in the massive amount of text I just read. However, I’d suggest it is accurate enough to know what you like and do it to within a tolerance of one micron! [SPOILER]Game begins post 134 ATPG- **Red Skeezix** Normal- **Diver** Normal- **septimus** pedescribe- **choie** Kelly- **choie** , **pedescribe** ATPG- **septimus** Jan- **Red Skeezix** gnarly- **Red Skeezix** Stanislaus- **Normal** , **pedescribe** Stanislaus- **pedescribe** Stanislaus- **Romanic** , **pedescribe** Kelly- **choie** Texcat- **Stanislaus** choie- **Stanislaus** , **Kelly** , **Texcat** , septimus- **Normal Phase** Suburban Plankton- **special ed** ShadowFacts- **Suburban Plankton** pedescribe- **choie** Mental Guy- **pedescribe** , **choie** Red Skeezix- **pedescribe** , **choie** Jan- **choie** , **pedescribe** , **Red Skeezix** Koldanar- **pedescribe** Stanislaus- **pedescribe** Normal- **Silver Jan** , **pedescribe** Normal- **Kelly** , **Stanislaus** , **choie** Normal- \*\*ATPG \*\* choie- **septimus** choie- **Normal** , **ATPG** , **Kelly** , **Stanislaus** Normal- **Kelly** ShadowFacts- **Kelly** , **Stanislaus** Stanislaus- **Normal** , **Kelly** , **pedescribe** Koldanar- **Kelly** , **ShadowFacts** , **Stanislaus** gnarlycharlie- **Suburban Plankton** special ed- **Normal** Inner Stickler- **Normal** Scathach- **Koldanar** Suburban Plankton- **special ed** Kelly- **Stanislaus** , **Normal** , **choie** USCDiver is joining the game. He is replacing Tom Scud, who had to leave. Welcome, USCDiver! pedescribe- **Diver** TexCat- **Normal, Diver** Mental Guy-\*\* Normal, Kelly, Scathach, Koldanar, Silver Jan, pedescribe\*\* Kelly- **special ed** ATPG-\*\* Red Skeezix, Koldanar, Kelly\*\* Jan- **Normal** gnarlycharlie- **Diver, Kelly, Stanislaus, ATPG, Koldanar, special ed** ATPG- **Red Skeezix, Koldanar, Kelly** Scathach- **Kelly** ATPG- **Red Skeezix, Kelly, Koldanar** Red Skeezix- **Normal, Jan** Normal- **Diver** Normal- **Scathach** Koldanar-\*\* ATPG, Scathach\*\* Normal- **Jan, pedescribe** Normal- **Koldanar, ATPG** Normal- **special ed** Normal- **Koldanar** Normal- **Kelly** , **ATPG** , **Scathach** choie- **Diver, Jan, ATPG, Koldanar, Kelly, \*\* septimus- ATPG, Red Skeezix Red Skeezix- Koldanar Suburban Plankton- Kelly, Stanislaus, Koldanar, Scathach, Normal, Jan, special ed ShadowFacts- ATPG, Kelly Romanic- Normal, Kelly ATPG- Kelly special ed- ATPG ATPG- Koldanar, Septimus special ed- Kelly ATPG- Kelly Romanic- ATPG, Koldanar, Kelly special ed- Kelly ATPG- Kelly, Normal Phase, Koldanar, septimus ATPG-** Kelly, Normal Phase\*\* ShadowFacts- **ATPG, septimus, Skeezix, Kelly, Koldanar** ATPG- **Koldanar, Scathach** Normal- **ATPG, Septimus** ATPG- **Normal, Scathach, Koldanar** Jan- **pedescribe, Normal** Suburban Plankton- **special ed** Jan- **Romanic, gnarlycharlie** Jan- **Normal** Suburban Plankton- **Red Skeezix, Koldanar** Stanislaus- **ShadowFacts, Koldanar, Normal, Scathach** Jan- **ATPG, Kelly** Jan- **Normal, special ed** pedescribe- **choie, ATPG** Scathach- **Koldanar, Kelly** special ed- **Kelly** TexCat- **Kelly, ed** Kelly- **ed** Normal- **Kelly** special ed- **Normal** TexCat- **special ed, Kelly** ATPG- **Koldanar, Kelly, Septimus** gnarlycharlie- **ATPG, Kelly** Mental Guy- **ATPG, Kelly, Koldanar, Scathach, gnarlycharlie** ATPG-\*\* Kelly, Romanic\*\* Romanic- **gnarlycharlie, Normal** Romanic- **Kelly** Silver Jan- **Kelly** , **Romanic** Mental Guy- **Kelly** Normal- **Kelly, ATPG** Normal- **Inner Stickler, Mental Guy** Normal- **pedescribe, Romanic** choie- **Diver, Mental Guy, Romanic, ATPG** Normal- **Kelly** Mental Guy- **Kelly** ShadowFacts- **Kelly, ATPG** Stanislaus- **Kelly, ATPG** Normal- **Septimus, ATPG** Koldanar- **ATPG, pedescribe, Kelly, ShadowFacts, \*\* Suburban Plankton-** Kelly, ATPG\*\* Red Skeezix- **Kelly** Jan- **Romanic** Jan- **ATPG** Romanic- **Kelly, Normal** ShadowFacts- **Silver Jan, Romanic, Normal, Kelly, Romanic** Lightfoot- **Kelly** ATPG-\*\* septimus, Kelly, \*\* Romanic- **Koldanar, ATPG, Kelly** choie- **Silver Jan, Romanic, Normal, \*\* Jan- Romanic, Kelly, \*\* pedescribe- Jan septimus- ATPG, Kelly, Koldanar** special ed-\*\* Kelly, septimus, ATPG\*\* special ed- **septimus, special ed** suburban plankton- **Mental Guy, Koldanar, Scathach, Jan, Romanic, Normal, Septimus, ATPG, Kelly** Scathach- **Kelly** Normal- **pedescribe, septimus, scathach** Normal-\*\* special ed\*\* Jan- **pedescribe, Normal** ShadowFacts- **Jan** Scathach- **Kelly** Suburban Plankton- **Kelly, septimus** special ed- **Kelly** Normal- **pedescribe, Kelly, \*\* Suburban Plankton-** special ed, Kelly, Inner Stickler \*\* gnarlycharlie- **Kelly** Jan- **Kelly** gnarlycharlie- **special ed** Scathach- **Koldanar** choie-\*\* Silver Jan, \*\* Silver Jan- **Koldanar** choie- **Jan, Kelly** Normal- **Kelly** Suburban- **Kelly** Suburban- **Kelly** Normal- **Silver Jan** Silver Jan- **Romanic** Normal- **Kelly** special ed- **Kelly** MentalGuy-\*\* Koldanar, Silver Jan, Kelly\*\* MentalGuy- **Jan** Diver-\*\* Romanic, ATPG, Kelly, Jan\*\* Suburban- **Koldanar, pedescribe, Jan** special ed- **Suburban Plankton** Suburban- **Normal, Jan** special ed- **Jan** Jan- **Suburban Plankton** Stanislaus- **Jan, Kelly, Diver** choie- **special ed, Suburban Plankton** choie-\*\* Jan, Kelly,\*\* Suburban- **Romanic, Normal, pedescribe, Koldanar** special ed-\*\* Suburban, Kelly, Jan\*\* special ed- **Kelly** , Jan- **special ed** Jan-\*\* special ed\*\* Red Skeezix- **Kelly** Normal- **Jan** End of day post 460 KellyCriterion, an NPC townsperson and One of the Defenders of De’endee, is dead. Night has fallen, and will last until July 16th at 6pm. All night actions must be submitted before that time. gnarlycharlie- **Kelly** End of night post 479 Scathach has been killed. Sadly, there isn’t enough left of him to identify. ShadowFacts- **Scathach, Kelly** ShadowFacts- **Scathach** ATPG-\*\* septimus, Koldanar\*\* Normal-\*\* Jan, Koldanar, ShadowFacts\*\* TexCat- **Scathach** Normal- **Lightfoot** Lightfoot- **gnarlycharlie** ShadowFacts- **ATPG, septimus** ShadowFacts- **scathach** Lightfoot- **special ed** special ed- **Lightfoot** Normal- **Lightfoot** Stanislaus-\*\* Lightfoot, ATPG, septimus\*\* Normal- **special ed** TexCat- **Scathach** Suburban Plankton- **Lightfoot, ShadowFacts, Kelly, Scathach** Suburban Plankton- **Lightfoot** Normal- **ATPG, ShadowFacts, Scathach** ATPG- **septimus** septimus- **ATPG, Lightfoot** ATPG- **septimus** TexCat- **ATPG** ATPG- **septimus** Stanislaus- **special ed, ATPG, Skeezix, Koldanar, Kelly, Jan, Normal, Lightfoot, Suburban Plankton** special ed- **Stanislaus, Jan, Normal** special ed- **ATPG, Kelly** ShadowFacts- **Lightfoot** special ed- **Lightfoot** Mental Guy- **Lightfoot** , **Suburban Plankton, gnarlycharlie, Koldanar, \*\* Normal Phase- gnarlycharlie special ed- Normal Phase, Jan, ATPG Stanislaus- Koldanar, special ed- Kelly pedescribe- Lightfoot, ATPG, special ed Suburban Plankton-** special ed\*\* choie- **Silver Jan, ATPG, special ed, Normal Phase, Kelly, \*\* special ed- choie, Normal, Jan choie- Normal, Jan Jan-** choie, Normal,\*\* septimus- **choie, ATPG, Lightfoot** Diver- **ATPG, pedescribe** ShadowFacts- **Kelly, choie, Normal Phase, Jan** ShadowFacts- **ATPG** Jan- **ShadowFacts** , Normal- **special ed** Normal- \*\*pedescribe, ShadowFacts, Suburban Plankton, special ed choie- septimus, Jan, ATPG, special ed, Normal, \*\* ShadowFacts- **Kelly** KOLDANAR BOWS OUT Jan- **Scathach** Jan- **choie** special ed- **Normal** special ed-\*\* ATPG, Jan\*\* Normal- **Stanislaus** Stanislaus- **special ed** Normal-\*\* Jan, Kelly\*\* Suburban Plankton- **Koldanar** Suburban Plankton- **choie, Jan, Normal, ShadowFacts, special ed** Lightfoot- **Scathach, Koldanar** ATPG- **septimus** ATPG- **septimus** TexCat- **septimus, choie, ATPG, Jan** Red Skeezix- **Silver Jan, ShadowFacts** ATPG-\*\* Shadowfacts, septimus, Jan\*\* ShadowFacts- **special ed** Weedy is replacing Romanic. I’m still looking for a replacement for Koldanar. ATPG- **ShadowFacts** choie- **pedescribe, Silver Jan, Kelly, Normal, ATPG, special ed, septimus** Inner Stickler- **Lightfoot, Jan, red skeezix, Shadowfacts** Inner Stickler- **Jan** Weedy- **ATPG** special ed- **Jan** ShadowFacts- **Inner Stickler** TexCat- **Kelly, Jan, Lightfoot,** Diver- **ATPG** ATPG- **Jan** ATPG- **pedescribe** special ed- **Silver** MentalGuy- **Red Skeezix, ShadowFacts, ATPG, Jan, Suburban Plankton** special ed- **Jan** Weedy- **Jan** , Jan-\*\* Weedy, Red Skeezix, choie\*\* gnarlycharlie-\*\* ATPG, Mental Guy, septimus, Jan\*\* gnarlycharlie-\*\* ATPG, septimus\*\* gnarlycharlie- **Diver, Normal, Mental Guy, septimus** Jan-\*\* special ed\*\* Normal- **ATPG** Normal- **ATPG** , **septimus** Normal- **TexCat, septimus, gnarliecharlie, pedescribe** Stanislaus- **Jan, ATPG, MentalGuy, Diver** Normal- **Romanic** ShadowFacts-\*\* ATPG, Jan, Normal, septimus\*\* Normal- **ATPG** Normal- **Lightfoot** Normal- **special ed** Normal- **ATPG** Normal- **Mentalguy, Inner Stickler, septimus, ATPG** Normal-\*\* Diver, koldanar, gnarlycharlie, Lightfoot, \*\* Normal- **Diver, septimus** ATPG- **special ed, Lightfoot, Weedy, Stanislaus, ShadowFacts** special ed- **ATPG** , special ed- **Normal, septimus** special ed- **Jan** special ed- **ATPG, SIlver Jan** ATPG-\*\* Kelly, Jan\*\* MentalGuy- **Stanislaus, septimus** MentalGuy- **ATPG, septimus,** ATPG-\*\* special ed\*\* special ed- **Jan** Normal Phase- **ShadowFacts, ATPG** ATPG- **septimus** Lightfoot- **ATPG, Jan** special ed- **ATPG, Jan** special ed-\*\* ATPG, Normal\*\* Suburban Plankton-\*\* septimus, ATPG, \*\* MentalGuy- **Suburban Plankton** gnarlycharlie- **Jan, septimus** Mentalguy- **septimus, suburban plankton, ATPG** gnarliecharlie- **ATPG** ATPG- **Normal** ATPG- **Suburban Plankton** Suburban Plankton- **ATPG, septimus** Normal- **ATPG** ATPG- **septimus, Suburban Plankton** Normal- **septimus, ATPG** Suburban Plankton- **ATPG** ShadowFacts- **ATPG** ATPG- **Suburban Plankton** Jan- **special ed** Suburban Plankton-\*\* choie, septimus, ATPG, texcat, kelly, scathach\*\* special ed- **Jan, ATPG, \*\* Jan- septimus choie- ATPG Suburban- septimus, special ed, Jan, ATPG Inner Stickler-** Jan, choie\*\* Jan-\*\* choie, suburban, ATPG\*\* choie- **Silver Jan** Jan- **choie** Weedy- **ATPG** special ed- **ShadowFacts, Suburban Plankton** special ed- **Jan** Silver Jan-\*\* Inner Stickler\*\* Jan- **special ed** Weedy-\*\* special ed\*\* Hirka T’Bawa has joined the game. He is replacing Koldanar. Welcome, Hirka T’Bawa! Weedy- **special ed, Jan** special ed- **Jan** ShadowFacts- **pedescribe, ATPG, Jan, Normal, pedescribe** Weedy- **Kelly, Jan** Weedy-\*\* special ed\*\* Weedy-\*\* Normal phase, silver jan\*\* special ed- **Normal, Jan, Kelly** Weedy- **Normal** special ed- **Jan, Kelly** TexCat- **special ed, Normal, Jan, Kelly, ATPG** ATPG- **Jan, septimus** special ed- **Kelly** ATPG-\*\* special ed, septimus\*\* Weedy- **special ed, Jan, Kelly** Red Skeezix-\*\* ShadowFacts, ATPG, Kelly, Lightfoot, Jan\*\* Weedy-\*\* Jan, Kelly, Scathach, Normal\*\* Lightfoot-\*\* special ed\*\* septimus- **ATPG** Jan- **Weedy, special ed** Normal- **Jan, Kelly** Normal-\*\* ShadowFacts, Jan\*\* Normal-\*\* ShadowFacts, Jan, ATPG\*\* ShadowFacts-\*\* ATPG, Normal\*\* Normal- **ShadowFacts, ATPG** Normal- **ATPG** , ShadowFacts- **Normal, ATPG, Kelly, Jan** Hirka-\*\* ATPG, Jan, Lightfoot, ShadowFacts, Normal, pedescribe, Scathach\*\* Lightfoot- **USCDiver** Normal- **Red Skeezix, ShadowFacts, Jan, septimus** Hirka- **ShadowFacts** ATPG-\*\* Jan, septimus, special ed, Normal, ShadowFacts, Diver, pedescribe, Koldanar, \*\* Normal- **ShadowFacts, septimus** special ed-\*\* Jan, septimus\*\* septimus- **ATPG, Jan** Skeezix-\*\* Normal, Jan, Romanic\*\* Skeezix- **septimus** Silver Jan is (more than) dead. She was an NPC Mage and one of the Defenders of De’endee. Night has now fallen, and will last until July 23rd at 6pm central time. Scathach’s remains have been found and identified. She was an NPC townsperson and one of the Defenders of De’endee. ATPG- **septimus** ATPG- **septimus, Suburban Plankton, pedescribe, ShadowFacts, Normal Phase** ATPG- \*\*septimus, Jan, \*\* Stanislaus- **septimus, Lightfoot, \*\* Normal- scathach, ATPG, septimus, Jan, Hirka, Lightfoot Suburban Plankton-** ATPG, septimus, \*\* choie- **Jan, septimus, ATPG, Suburban Plankton, Normal Phase** Normal Phase- \*\*ATPG, septimus, \*\* ATPG- **Suburban Plankton** ATPG- **choie** , Suburban Plankton- **ATPG** ATPG- **Suburban Plankton** choie- **Normal, septimus, ATPG, Jan, Suburban Plankton** Inner Stickler- \*\*Suburban Plankton, ATPG, \*\* Weedy- **septimus** Hirka- **gnarlycharlie** septimus- **Normal Phase** Normal Phase- **septimus** Special ed is dead, but you only found his head. Yes that rhymes. Because you only found his head, you can’t make “head” or tails out of who he was or what his allegiance was to. It is now Day 3. This Day will run the same length as those before, but you can ask Astral if you need an exact time. I assume it will be Thursday at 6 PM Central, though. Hirka- **septimus, shadowfacts** Normal- **septimus** Inner Stickler- **septimus** septimus-\*\* special ed\*\* Suburban Plankton-\*\* septimus, Normal, Jan, \*\* Inner Stickler-\*\* ed, ATPG, Normal\*\* Stanislaus- **septimus** ATPG- **septimus** Normal- **septimus, ATPG, special ed, silver Jan** Normal- **septimus, special ed, Silver Jan, stanislaus** Weedy- **septimus** ATPG- **choie** ATPG- **choie** ATPG- **choie** , **Jan, Romanic** ATPG- **choie, Jan, Normal Phase, \*\* ATPG- choie, septimus, \*\* Weedy- ATPG, choie ATPG- septimus, choie** ATPG- **septimus** choie- **ATPG** , Suburban Plankton- **septimus, ATPG, choie** ATPG- **choie** Normal- **choie, septimus** Weedy- **septimus, choie, pedescribe, ATPG, Jan** Hirka- **septimus** TexCat- **special ed, Jan, septimus, ATPG, choie** choie- **ATPG, septimus, Normal, Silver Jan, TexCat, Weedy** choie- **Normal, Jan** ATPG- **choie** gnarlycharlie-\*\* ATPG, choie\*\*[/SPOILER] Next: Tallies for each player. 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