# De'endee Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 6, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052 "2011-07-06T16:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/941 "2011-07-25T11:34:02Z")
Lonely? ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/942 "2011-07-25T11:40:13Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Lonely? I desperately need a girlfriend. I am usually not this boring, either. But guess what, here’s what YOU’ve been interested in all game. \*\*Normal Phase \*\* septimus- 1111111111111111111 Silver Jan- 1111111111111 pedescribe- 1111111 Kelly- 111111111111 stanislaus- 111 choie- 11 ATPG- 111111111111111111111 Diver- 111 Scathach- 11111 koldanar- 1111 special ed- 11111111 Inner Stickler- 11 MentalGuy- 11 Romanic- 11 ShadowFacts- 111111111 Lightfoot- 11111 gnarliecharlie- 111 Suburban Plankton- 1 TexCat- 1 Red Skeezix- 1 Hirka T’bawa- 1 ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/943 "2011-07-25T12:11:10Z")
I see I have betrayed my obsession with the Pizza. Koldanar and Hirka are the same “person”, btw. I have problems with both Septimus and choie currently. More in a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/944 "2011-07-25T12:14:55Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > I see I have betrayed my obsession with the Pizza. > > Koldanar and Hirka are the same “person”, btw. > > I have problems with both Septimus and choie currently. More in a bit. Yes, but I felt including the separate posters was necessary for complete information’s sake. I will be combining the data soon. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/945 "2011-07-25T13:26:35Z")
Septimus first: > [@septimus](#): > > Some of you can guess now why I didn’t write much last Night. I still don’t want to spell it out, but I do hope the Vig did try to kill me… I expect the Lynch vote to go against me harshly toDay, despite this demonstration, and will certainly reveal my role many hours before I’m Lynched. But whether you insist on Lynching me toDay or not, please let’s also keep hunting for real Scum, rather than letting the Day be a complete waste. “Let’s keep hunting for real scum” makes my nose twitch, Septimus. Just so you know. > [@](#): > > And if you do decide to Lynch me despite everything please PLEASE make up your minds well before the 6AM (in my timezone) deadline. There are 120 hours in the Day, yet Ed and Ms. Phase piled on me at almost the last minute, and I’d be dead except that I’d stayed up all Night just to exchange two votes with SJ if necessary. The idea that I should have explained my last-minute vote seems silly. Who was there to change their votes? Certainly not any of the only three people voting for me, all of whom had locked in their votes. > > That’s right. The Lynch against me had only three people; none of them ever asked me for a role claim or made a case I could defend against. This is outright false. You did defend yourself against Pizza’s accusations, in a piecemeal fashion, so don’t say you couldn’t defend yourself there. Even more to the point: Special Ed and I both voted you on the strength of Texcat’s observations about your OMGPizzaSucks vote being inconsistent with your own self-reported beliefs about how bad such votes have worked out for you in the past; and about your interactions with choie. I don’t remember whether you ever addressed the former point (you certainly COULD have – why did you vote for Pizza despite your track record with OMGUS?), but you did attempt to defend yourself against the latter. > [@](#): > > (AFAICT, my “argument against **Pizza** was overkill” is the only alleged scum-tell.) FALSE! Voting inconsistent with your own beliefs (in very close proximity), and snuggling. That’s what got you near-lynched, not anything to do with Pizza. > [@](#): > > The decisive votes occurred in the final hour of a 120-hour Day. Yet I’m the one accused of “machination.” (If they had asked me for a role claim I’m not sure what I would have done; I’m still very reluctant to say much.) Seriously, Septimus, what’s your point? My vote didn’t swing the result by itself; unless someone already voting for Silver Jan changed their vote after me (which is what actually happened), the odds of you being lynched over her were very slim. Ed, who did do that, was to all appearances town. Silver Jan was town. _Even if I were scum_ there would be no possible machination going on here, and you should be able to recognize that. _You still haven’t addressed why you voted at the very last minute, and not right after Ed. Your own defense – that no one but you could have changed their votes to help you – works against you. If you believed no one was around to help, you could have voted right after Special Ed, and not with one minute to go. But you didn’t believe no one was around. You believed someone WAS (or could have been). That’s why you held your saving vote._ > [@](#): > > The events of last Evening demonstrate, I think, that the talk of a “pre-deadline” was sound. I stayed awake until 6 AM in my timezone because I expected SJ to vote me twice at the last moment False. If you were paying that close attention you would have seen the last vote counts before your move, in which Silver Jan _already had two votes_, both placed on Special Ed. She was locked in. She could not have done anything to save herself. Astral even made a special note of it, due to Jan’s ambiguous unvote. And you were around to see that that was the case. You are lying. > [@](#): > > and I wanted to then “return the favor.” Because of my timezone it’s inconvenient for me to be on-line at 6AM, but it can be inconvenient for others as well. SJ was evidently attending to real life; that would have been a disaster for Town if I had been Scum. So, you’re blaming Silver Jan for not being around to vote you to save yourself if had been scum – though you’re not? > [@](#): > > I assume **ed** was killed by Scum (can someone please explain the janitor mechanic?) and I didn’t think he was Scum. We can debate whether his vote at 33 minutes to deadline was anti-Town or not, but it was certainly anti-Septimus. I’m not sure whether to suspect Ms. Phase either. For some reason fellow Townies always find me suspicious, so voting to Lynch me may be a Town-tell. 😃 > > The new charge against me is that _I_ voted at the very last minute rather than starting a discussion. :smack: Although I was watching DVD’s in another room, I had the computer on and connected and did see the last-hour votes several minutes before deadline. I did not vote at once; I hoped someone would rescue me. Or perhaps SJ would show up, put me out of my misery and I could go to bed. The suggestion that I start a last-moment discussion with three people whose votes were locked in strikes me as absurd. At the last moment, realizing I could save myself by Lynching SJ (known to be either Scum or Vanilla), I acted. I don’t see how this can be viewed as anti-Town. This strikes as just so much hand-waving. It’s about all you can say in your own defense, but it’s not convincing. Why sit passive saying nothing and hope someone else will step in? And you’re contradicting yourself again – if you really hoped someone might step in and save you while you yourself say nothing, then you expected someone might be around. If you expected someone might be around, you can’t say you thought you had nothing to gain by speaking up earlier. You’re throwing the kitchen sink at this issue, but some of the parts are from a bathtub, know what I mean? Separately … I had some meta-created doubts last night and into this morning about you. Specifically, that almost no one was turning up and questioning your actions who sounded fake about it. (SP did, will get to that later too if it ever comes to the top of the to-do list. But he was the only one.) If you are scum, I would have really, really expected a stack of your fellows to come out and condemn you harshly for that move, just so they could say they’d done so later, if town in fact turned against you today (or if a vig killed you). Instead it was mostly crickets and has continued to be, even into this morning. It’s closer to what I’d expect to see if town was trying to do something stupid (from scum’s perspective), than if we were doing something right. Secondarily, the case on choie has raised large doubts in me about her, and I still don’t particularly think you are both on the same mafia team due to that snuggling from you to her. Pair that with her defense of you, and I think that if she is mafia, she thinks you are town. Thirdly, one-shot bulletproof is a classic defense (whether real or fake) for a third-party player, not for a scum, who’d have much higher incentive to claim doc. (AllWalker in Screamers had one-shot bulletproof (as SK); a survivor on Idlemafia recently had it; BillMc had it as an oddball third party, also on Idlemafia.) Finally – you’re not acting like a TOWN bulletproof. You’re a talkative player, Septimus. Sure it gets you in trouble sometimes, but it’s still your best tool in getting yourself attacked by the scum – be right, and make yourself a tempting target. You’ve been, on the contrary, much quieter than usual. You also hinted quite strongly last night that you expected to be alive in the morning – this is the OPPOSITE of what you should do as a townie with that role. You want to encourage attacks, not dissuade them. But it is what you do if you are a third party and want to keep attackers from testing you. So long story short, for a number of reasons I am currently leaning some sort of PFK on you, not scum, and not town. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/946 "2011-07-25T13:34:36Z")
@ Normal Phase, above- Nice. general comment- Stupid thing I’m working on is almost wrapped up, but I’d still have to add myself and Romanic and Koldanar to the results, can’t keep eyes open. Then, once I’ve posted the thing I still have to try to remember why I did all this. Something about scums not mentioning each other much, probably. That will need some analysis-related parts of my brain to still be functional. Thank goodness this round ends on Thursday. I’m going to need half that time just to sort out what I’m driving at. I skipped ahead a bit and I have some notes- during the re-read, about 5 players stood out as potentially dangerous. For now I’ll leave my vote on choie and observe septimus and choie’s reactions and everyone’s reactions to choie and septimus. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/947 "2011-07-25T14:16:03Z")
I suppose I should **unvote: Septimus** according to my guesses, as PFKs are rarely a direct early threat, especially with no sign of a traditional serial killer. (Although on the off chance of a _non_ traditional one, may I ask that if the game contains a role whose purpose is to find bombs or booby traps or anything out of the ordinary, that they consider claiming? Thinking of my hybrid mad bomber/delayed serial killer role from last game.) ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/948 "2011-07-25T14:50:32Z")
[OOG] Sorry I have not been posting, everyone. I’ve been laid up with a stomach bug that just won’t go away, unfortunately. I will be back and participating as soon as possible - I promise before the end of the Day no matter how I’m feeling. Sincere apologies! [/OOG] ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/949 "2011-07-25T15:00:14Z")
Choie – > [@choie](#): > > AND now that I’m done defending my innocence, I’m gonna turn my tack to proper scumhunting. > > I’m still hung up on **Normal Phase** ’s early claim on Day One. Since almost no one else seems bothered by this, I gather it isn’t as suspicious as it seemed to me at the time. But everything I’ve read indicates that it’s a bad, no-good, really bad and awful idea for townies to claim unless we’re actually at the point of being led up the gallows. And even then, supposedly, it’s not a great thing to do. One poster in a thread God knows where (I read so many of them in the past month, I really lost track) that unless forced to claim, vanilla townies are supposed to take the virtual bullet for our team – or let another suspect VT take that bullet – rather than give away the claim for the scummy folks to examine. (IIRC, someone even said they prefer a VT to stand mute rather than claim, even when it leads to their lynching. “Tis a far better thing I do” and all that.) Mmm hmm. Vanilla claims are terrible for townies. Exactly the sort of “but she broke the “this is how to act townie” rules” thing that scum are so often bothered by. > [@](#): > > It just nags at me that **Normal Phase** blurted out her claim the way she did, so incredibly early. I know her defense was that it was to stop the alleged discussion-by-implication of the vanilla character sheets. Not my defense, my reason. > [@](#): > > But that to me doesn’t make any freakin’ sense. The logic eludes me: her rationale was that rather than having people make veilled guesses about vanilla claim sheets, she’d… post an actual vanilla claim sheet, right after **Silver Jan** had posted her own allegedly actual vanilla claim sheet. > > And this would somehow be safer. For scum to see _two_ actual sheets. On Day One. I’ve explained this a number of times, and I’m starting to have a very difficult time believing that your confusion on this point is genuine at all, even by “scum thinking a townie is acting anti-town” standards. My concern was never with scum getting the details of vanilla PMs. I assume they must already have at least one of their very own to look at, quite possibly more. My concern – as I’ve laid out multiple times – was with town power roles possibly outing themselves by the way they related (or failed to relate) to revealed vanilla PMs. Your criticism is beyond off base. > [@](#): > > The thing is, originally **Normal** was supposedly defending **Jan** by backing up her claim. Her claim certainly seemed to placate a few people, so it did in fact work. Nor, I might add, was I defending Jan, despite that it had that outcome, and despite that I did believer her at the time and later to be a townie. My concern was with the town power roles. All else was secondary or separate. > [@](#): > > But here’s a thought. What if instead, **Normal** was piggybacking on **Jan**? Rhetorical question. As Pizza likes to say, “who are you talking to”? Smacks of a contrived post. > [@](#): > > Say **Normal** was scum. She knows **Jan** is Town, claiming vanilla. That’s what **Normal** wants everyone to think _she_ is, right? So she quickly jumps in with the claim that matches **Jan** ’s. And thus, rather than **Normal** ’s claim confirming **Jan** ’s, it was actually **Jan** ’s claim that was being used to validate a fake vanilla town claim from **Normal**. > > Possible? Crazy? > > What the heck. I voted for her on Day Two, and I’m gonna renew it. > > \*\*[color=blue]vote Normal Phase Minor townie points for actually having a potential scum motive to back up this vote. Townie points taken away again for the contrived manner in which it is suggested, and for the fact that you are nevertheless still voting for the “weird” and the (in your opinion, perhaps) anti-town, which is right in the scum sweet spot. I’m not going to respond to all of Pizza’s case again you; it’s just too much. But I’ll say that I agree with some of the things he sees as disingenuous in you, and particularly with the argument about Septimus-PIS. He didn’t highlight the sentence I found the most indicative, so let me go find it myself. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/950 "2011-07-25T15:12:17Z")
As an aside: > [@](#): > > This probably sounds strange considering I’m the topic of suspicion here, but what the heck, I’m never gonna learn if I don’t ask questions: Given that there are/were 21 of us, which means, what, 4 or 5 scum – why is it unlikely that both me and septimus would be scum? The same argument was made re: my suspicions of Silver Jan and Normal Phase, and for similar reasons: one was defending the other. At some point any two people could be scum, couldn’t they? Do scum always throw each other under the bus? > > As it happens, you’re probably right. I mean, I know Silver Jan and I are townies – ironic considering I suspected her (ave atque vale, Jan!). I just don’t follow the logic that makes you guys so sure that only one at most of these pairs was scummy. > > For that matter, how come my defense of septimus is “snuggling” but Normal Phase’s defenses of Silver Jan and Askthepizzaguy aren’t? (I don’t mean that defensively, I’m genuinely curious as to the subtleties of meaning here.) > > Hmm, maybe these basic questions should be in a “Mafia thread for newbies” thread. Sorry if they don’t belong in the actual game thread. Mafia rarely defend each other (in games with reveals), which is far from saying it doesn’t happen at all. It’s just risky: even if it’s justifiable on logical grounds, there’s always going to be someone coming along later to say, “hey you defended Mr Scummo there! Lynch!” Better it be some hapless townie who gets that treatment, than you. Mafia DO defend townies, frequently. They defend them, they cuddle them, them compliment them, they do whatever their devious little minds can come up with to ingratiate themselves with the people who might otherwise vote for them. Septimus’ compliments aimed at you – particularly given the content of your own post – looked like just that sort of subconscious desire for approval, finding an outlet. Pizza’s as regards Silver Jan looked more honest, at least to me. Your mileage may vary. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/951 "2011-07-25T15:14:51Z")
More distractions: > [@TexCat](#): > > I was sure that Ed was scum – particularly after the Silver Jan flip. It seemed like he spent most of the day yesterDay, pointing out her scummy ways and then ended up not voting for her. I was ready to vote him again toDay. OK. Why do you point this out now? > [@](#): > > I am not sure what to make of Septimus’s claim. It’s certainly has some advantages as a fake scum role. No need to explain why the scum aren’t killing you at night. No way for the town to prove the role, except by lynching. I don’t find his last minute vote unsettling. I was, unfortunately, unable to get back for EOD, but had I been around, I would have expected Septimus to change his vote to save himself, whether he was town or scum. At 6:59 and 30 seconds? ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/952 "2011-07-25T15:19:36Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > This statement just makes me more suspicious. Scotsman roles modconfirm the player. I would expect a bulletproof role to be the same or to at least be alerted if they are attacked. Actually they’re distinct in exactly that way. Scotsman roles are by definition revealed when “killed” (though sometimes a mod will not show alignment upon first “death”). Bulletproof only means that you can survive one (or more, depending on setup) kill attempt. I would not expect to see it in the writeup. I _might_ expect Septimus himself to be informed if he is attacked, if the role is genuine – otherwise he wuold never be aware of his own status as to whether the bulletproof still holds or not. So there is a point, regardless, though not necessarily a definitive one – it all depends on Astral. I’m tempted to ask Septimus how he thought about all of this himself. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/953 "2011-07-25T15:22:25Z")
> [@Weedy](#): > > Just realised that the vig idea is a very bad one :smack: Why? ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/954 "2011-07-25T15:23:33Z")
[oog] Glad your Dad’s recovering well, gnarly![/oog] Normal, I was nodding along with the bulk of your last post to septimus, right until you got to your conclusion. I think he’s scum. septimus has: evaded the case against him; gone out of his to way to manipulate the vote to save himself; produced an unverifiable roleclaim. (Particularly the way he not only doesn’t know who attacked him - common with Scotsman roles - but doesn’t even know if _he’s used his power_). These are all strong scum traits, but I can see how you could tag them as PFK. For me the most damning thing is that scum evidently didn’t feel the need to attack him.\* If he were not scum, and had gone to such lengths to save himself, why would they not target him? Either they’re astonishingly paranoid or somehow didn’t think he was the most likely town power role out there. But on a more general note, after I got fooled by a PFK claim last game, I’ve pretty much given up on the idea of trying to separate out PFKs. On sheer numbers, you’re more likely to find scum than PFK and there’s a bigger downside than upside to letting your suspect live a few Days longer. (E.g in this instance, if septimus is a scum blocker we lose N Days of results from Lightfoot). “Kill 'em all and let the mod sort 'em out” is my new motto. \*Unless they did and someone else killed special ed? But down this path of empty speculation lies madness. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/955 "2011-07-25T15:37:14Z")
I just realized that the thing I thought I saw as really blatant PIS regarding Septimus (from choie) wasn’t. I misread a pronoun (“we should be hunting real scum” as “he (ATPG) should be hunting real scum”). I’m not certain enough to vote her in the absence of that comment given all the other names I have floating in my head right now. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/956 "2011-07-25T15:47:32Z")
I’m nervous about three “mislynches” in a row, Stanislaus. I’d very much like to get one of the Lords of Slaughter, and those items I mentioned (suspicion of choie slightly less so given the above, but I still have significant suspicion of her) are getting in the way of me thinking of him as one of them. “Why would scum not target him”? They got his rather unsubtle hint and took it as him being bulletproof/scotsman or WIFOM-ing doc, and took it elsewhere for the night in hopes of a “mislynch” today. Without that hint I’d agree with you entirely. With it, I think it’s a great deal more ambiguous. I need to look at Suburban Plankton in full, and let the choie case settle for what it is rather than what I thought it was, before trying to sort it out. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/957 "2011-07-25T16:50:43Z")
> [@LightFoot](#): > > You’ve confused me. your train of thought would denote point 1 > You comments on point 2 don’t make sense to me? am I daft? What I meant was this: The Scum would quite possibly have not tried to kill you, considering that they apparently have a Roleblocker. You would be the most likely target for a Doc’s protection, so you would likely be a wasted kill attempt. But with a Roleblocker, they can keep you from acting and ‘shoot blind’ in an effort to find the Doc, or some other Town Power. So I said it was a combination of Point 1 (Scum have a Roleblocker) and Point 2 (Scum figured you would be protected). If not for Point 1 they might have taken a shot at you anyway, hoping that the Doc would protect someone else, or that there is no Doc in the first place. But with a Roleblocker they were free to target someone else, safe in the knowledge that you would be unable to act anyway. Regarding the Paranoid Doc: It is certainly possible that a Paranoid Doc both protected you and blocked you. But I think it’s more likely that a Scum Roleblocker blocked you and that the Scum did not attempt to kill you. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/958 "2011-07-25T17:09:08Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > I don’t think it’s likely that both choie and Septimus are mafia given the latter’s snuggling of the former yesterDay. (It’s possible either could be a third party.) I’d like ATPG and SP both to comment on how they feel about that, given they’re currently questioning both players. > > The content of the choie case (and everything else) still has to wait. I’m not so sure that \*\*Septimus \*\*was ‘snuggling’. I often find **Septimus** ’ manner of expressing himself to be ‘unusual’, and for that reason I often find him suspicious. Something that concerns me about this issue is this: the ‘snuggling’ was originally pointed out by \*\*Texcat \*\*in [Post 600](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14040873&postcount=600). Since that point, a number of people have commented on it and several have voted based on it. But \*\*Texcat \*\*hasn’t mentioned it again. In fact, the only time he has mentioned either of them was Today when he said "I am not sure what to make of Septimus’s claim. It’s certainly has some advantages as a fake scum role. No need to explain why the scum aren’t killing you at night. No way for the town to prove the role, except by lynching. I don’t find his last minute vote unsettling. I was, unfortunately, unable to get back for EOD, but had I been around, I would have expected Septimus to change his vote to save himself, whether he was town or scum. " It bothers me that \*\*Texcat \*\*opened up this can of worms and has since done nothing but sit back and let others discuss the issue, to the extent that the two players he was ‘concerned’ about are now the leading suspects. ---
**Author:** ![gnarlycharlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@gnarlycharlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarlycharlie)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/959 "2011-07-25T17:41:40Z")
**Pizza** , your post on **Choie** was very detailed and very convincing. i’m rather confused as why you seem to be trying to convince yourself that she might be town. as for **Septimus** ’s claim, i’m rather wary. Bulletproof is a great hiding place. it will be difficult to counterclaim and would explain why he isn’t NKd. i seem to recall a game i read that discussed this but can’t remember which. ☹ i acknowledge that he might be a PFK and we need to find scum but his last minute vote and his claim is just too much to believe. **Vote Septimus** also, i went through **MentalGuy** ’s posts before voting for me. here’s what i found. > [@MentalGuy](#): > > I agree that the double vote could lead to scum manipulation, but I also agree with those that say we should just try to make sure player’s votes are well justified. I believe the possible benefits of allowing our power roles to level up makes it worth the risk of having double votes. > > The most suspicious thing I have seen so far is pedescribe’s vote on Choie for the apparent slip, but I also know pede generally votes very early with very little reason just to get a vote down, so I don’t find it as suspicious as I might for some other players. > > I just got home a little while ago and have only read through once quickly. I will try to reread more thoroughly tomorrow and see if anything jumps out at me. discussing game mechanics and commenting on **pedescribe** ’s vote. > [@MentalGuy](#): > > On rereading, I was noticing how we were thinking of how we can level up Townies by them voting for scum. We were not considering how the scum level up. If the scum get experience from voting for Town, then if we lynched wrong and had everyone joining the bandwagon on that player, we would be giving the scum a perfect place to hide while they level up. This is just speculation since we don’t know how the scum level up, but I think we should keep in mind that our actions could also benefit them. For myself, there is only a couple of situations that I am likely to cast a second vote. One, when the lynchee is almost certainly scum (e.g. we have a result from an uncounterclaimed investigator) or it is a very close vote and I want to make it clear that I am voting for the person I feel is most suspicious. > > I think both Normal’s case on Kelly and Scathach’s case on Koldanar are good cases. I also am pinged a bit by Silver Jan finding pede’s behavior scummy but giving him a pass because he unvoted. > > I was thinking I was going to vote for Koldanar, but Kelly’s most recent post has made me change my mind. Normal might ultimately be wrong, but I do not see “mis-reasoning” on her part. > > **Vote KellyCriterion** discussing game mechanics again and voting in agreement to case made by someone else. > [@MentalGuy](#): > > I am not going to quote askthepizzaguy but I do agree with his last point. I have been able to read the thread at various times today but not post and this latest move by Kelly just does not seem like something that would come from scum. If scum are not allowed to talk privately during the Day (and I don’t think I have seen this stated one way or the other), then I guess it is in the realm of possibility, but I still think rather unlikely. > > **Unvote KellyCriterion** > > I still like Scathach’s case on Koldanar better than any other case made or anything I have been able to spot myself. > > **Vote Koldanar** > Askthepizzaguy, none of us are saying that a Day 1 case is going to meet the same standard as, say, a Day 3 case, but we would like to know why you think the person you are voting is more likely to be scum than the other players. I think most of us just feel that if you are not giving a reason for voting for us, then there is really no need for a response. Your vote on Red Skeezix did not gain any traction because there was nothing really there to respond to. > > On preview, I see charlie has also replied, but I will just keep this like it is. more agreement and changes vote due to a case made by someone else. > [@MentalGuy](#): > > Each Mod makes their own rules, but the standard operating procedure here is to give them accounts on a separate board where they can talk. It is fairly common to only allow the scum to talk privately at Night (but allowing communication any time is not unusual either). > > If Kelly is scum and in contact with his partners, then I think they would have convinced him that the “hash-tag” post was not a good thing to do. If Kelly is scum and not in contact with his partners, then he may not have realized what a bad idea it was. So, I think his actions are slightly more likely (as scum) if scum are not allowed to communicate with each other during the Day, but I find it unlikely to be something done by scum either way. discusses more mechanics and possible communication between scum. > [@MentalGuy](#): > > I don’t know about “great”, but you are right that it makes more sense from a standpoint of getting compensation. I was thinking of the more straightforward goal of trying to save Kelly. comments on possible scum tactics. > [@MentalGuy](#): > > I just felt that the accusation of Koldanar just posting to be saying something rang true givent the content of Koldanar’s posts. His posts have been better since then, but that could be because he got called on it. > > I will not be around at the end of Day, so I am going to go ahead and cast another vote > > **Vote Silver Jan** > > I feel her confusion has more probability of being being caused by her being scum than Kelly’s. I am not really opposed to a Kelly lynch, though, since as someone else said, he will continue to receive suspicion if he does survive, so it might be best to go ahead and eliminate him (though at this point, I think the same argument applies to Silver Jan). agreeing with another case. > [@MentalGuy](#): > > Should have previewed. > > **Unvote Silver Jan** > > I am not sure if I will be back with a second vote or not. trying to unvote. > [@MentalGuy](#): > > crap > > **Unvote Silver Jan** finally unvoting. > [@MentalGuy](#): > > You are not showing the votes for Koldanar, and I believe I unvoted Silver Jan. commenting on vote count. > [@MentalGuy](#): > > Thank you. you’re welcome. 😛 do his posts scream scum to me? no. but accusing me doing something he is doing himself and voting me for it does. at first, i felt **Normal** was taking advantage of MentalGuy’s vote to join in. however, seeing her posts, i feel she is town and may have just taken **MentalGuy** ’s posts at face value. i’m also suspicious of **USCDiver** for his vote on Pizza after saying earlier he thought **Pizza** was town but for now: **Vote MentalGuy** as a post script i see people are more comfortable with using both their votes, including me. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/960 "2011-07-25T18:04:59Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > It bothers me that \*\*Texcat \*\*opened up this can of worms and has since done nothing but sit back and let others discuss the issue, to the extent that the two players he was ‘concerned’ about are now the leading suspects. TexCat is a “she”, but yeah. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=47) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=49)