# De'endee Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 6, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052 "2011-07-06T16:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 51
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1001 "2011-07-26T14:16:23Z")
OK, now that I’m a little more awake: > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > Lightfoot- > > Like yourself, I find Normal Phase extremely helpful, dangerous to the scums if townie, and an excellent ally when you need to lynch someone. She’s not one to just ignore the game. > > That said, I detected a whiff of a hint of malevolence behind her brilliant mind and ravishing good looks. I think she wants me to cause some destruction and mayhem before she puts me to bed for good. > > It could just be my imagination. It is. You have every right to be paranoid about me, but you’re mis-reading me here. At that point in the game you had accused only Septimus in any solid way, IIRC. You were talking a lot about your history with attracting scum votes, but you hadn’t yet made any effort to evaluate the ones you had so far gotten. Though I can’t remember exactly what I was thinking when I wrote that, I’m pretty sure it was something along the lines of “don’t get so gleeful about the reactions to you that you forget to actually do the work”. Which at that point I thought you just might. > [@](#): > > I’d like to see her go all wrecking crew on the Lords of Slaughter, and if she continues on this pace, she’s gotta hit some of them. Yes. If I went 4 for 4 (one never stated publicly) as a freakin’ third party I’m pretty sure I can get one or two as a townie. > [@](#): > > But if the Lords of Slaughter leave her alive, over and over and over again, and she isn’t a top candidate to be lynched soon, then they don’t find her to be a threat. > > I just don’t buy that. She is a threat and a damned good one. I’m essentially proposing a game of “chicken” with her life. Should the scums never kill her off, okay lynch her. But while she lives, if townie, she’s probably going to tear them a new corn chute. > > I think if you observe her carefully over the course of the game, you’ll be able to make that determination and judgment call for yourself. > > I don’t want to go after her now. But if I die, and she doesn’t die, keep your eye on her especially. Question her, see where she votes, don’t let up. When the time comes, peek under her skirt, even if it costs her her life. This last bit is the only part I don’t like. If there are any enterprising scums out there, you’ve handed them license to have a go at me by killing you. I’m easily knocked off my stride by pressure, and you know that. My judgment goes all to hell. Overall, how you advocate dealing with me is how I’d probably argue to deal with myself (and how I myself deal with any number of strong townie/dangerous scum players): give them some rope and keep a close eye, but be really really cautious if they’re still around toward the end. But I don’t like your linking it to your own death in this way. It allows too much of an opening for manipulation. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1002 "2011-07-26T14:19:20Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > It’s my experience with a PFK _claim_: Zeriel’s. I was suckered by it, whereas if I’d stuck with thinking of him as a wrong 'un, I might have actually contributed to a successful lynch. (I realise that this case is different in that septimus hasn’t claimed PFK - rather you’ve concluded he is through analysis: my position is still that it’s better to lynch someone you think is anti-Town now than try to distinguish between the two flavours). > > Mainly, of course, I do think he’s scum - but the possibility that he might be PFK doesn’t make me hesitate to lynch him. Oh – Zeriel hadn’t claimed PFK, but rather third party survivor. But I see your analogy. ---
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1003 "2011-07-26T14:37:40Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > More distractions: > > OK. Why do you point this out now? > > At 6:59 and 30 seconds? I was responded to your point about Ed being dead and Septimus still alive. I found Ed to be a particularly strange choice for scum. Yes even at 6:59 and 55 seconds. I think self-preserving votes are a null tell. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1004 "2011-07-26T14:51:04Z")
Let me see: > [@TexCat](#): > > > [@Normal Phase](#): > > > > […]I still have WIFOM-y issues with the scum killing Special Ed over you if you’re not scum, given they must know you’re a power role in that case, and must have considered vig or (non-self-protecting) doc as possibilities. […] > > I was sure that Ed was scum – particularly after the Silver Jan flip. It seemed like he spent most of the day yesterDay, pointing out her scummy ways and then ended up not voting for her. I was ready to vote him again toDay. My issue with this is that your mentioning you were ready to vote for Ed again feels out of place. He’s dead, he’s probably townie, it’s over with, so what’s the point? It felt like you might be trying to subtly distance yourself from having killed him yourself by saying this. “I’m not scum b/c they robbed me of my vote, see?” sort of thing. I’m not sure whether I buy your explanation or not. I was talking primarily about Septimus here, not about Ed at all. (Ed makes sense as a ploy to frame Septimus, or as going after the only one of Septimus’ voters not to have claimed NPC, depending, but that’s irrelevant to where I’m going with that statement.) So I’m talking about Septimus (while mentioning Ed’s name), and you drop in as one of your relatively few comments this game, that you expected to be voting Ed again today. Why is Ed particularly strange as a kill choice, other than you having suspected him? You’re buying Septimus’ claim more or less (right?), why does “making Septimus look bad” not come to mind as an option? For that matter why did you not place a vote on Septimus yesterday, given that Ed and I both found your reasons persuasive enough to do so ourselves? I want to look at your case on Ed, too. Hopefully Pizza linked it. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1005 "2011-07-26T14:53:50Z")
I’m not as awake as I thought; I left something out. > [@](#): > > So I’m talking about Septimus (while mentioning Ed’s name), and you drop in as one of your relatively few comments this game, that you expected to be voting Ed again today. This was supposed to be followed with something like, “I’m not sure I can rationalize that as just fluffy conversation.” ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1006 "2011-07-26T15:00:56Z")
Pizza quote: > [@](#): > > I really feel the Lords of Slaughter could be playing things very safe, given the town’s apparent early game collapse in-progress. I’d like to know what you think about Mental Guy, because “safe” was my primary impression of him. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1007 "2011-07-26T15:33:33Z")
Here is TexCat’s vote on Special Ed. > [@TexCat](#): > > I believed Silver Jan’s claim yesterday after Normal backed it up with her own. I still believe it toDay. I think her play style of OMGUS voting and towniness proclaiming is not pro-town, but I believe her. If she just claimed to have some method in her madness and a way far better opinion of herself, she could give PizzaGuy a run for his money. > > I was suspicious yesterDay of Ed. When Kelly tried to handshake, I thought WTF, didn’t he have this whole discussion of handshaking with Ed, and didn’t Ed tell him that it wasn’t possible in this game. When I got ready to vote for Kelly and actually looked back at the posts, I discovered that Ed didn’t mention that fact at all. [Posts starting here and continuing a little ways.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14015929&postcount=218) He certainly jumped on Kelly after the handshake attempt, but did little to prevent it. Was he setting Kelly up? I’m very much not liking this. Did little to prevent it? It might be strictly true that Ed never said that handshaking was impossible in this game, but he did say all of this: > [@](#): > > However, most mods counter that by either: > > 1. Providing a copy of the Vanilla PM to everyone publicly. > 2. Creating unique PMs for each player. > 3. Giving Scum access to a Vanilla and perhaps other cover PMs privately. > [@](#): > > Yes, if that’s the method they chose. I did that in a recent game I co-moderated on a different board (in response to Kelly asking if mods would change up vanilla PMs) > [@](#): > > Pay attention to the Vanilla PM thread as well. > > We made each and every PM individual and didn’t repeat any of the win conditions. (as an example of the situation in a game he had modded) > [@](#): > > And the Scum and 3rd party players were provided with some of those PMs as cover roles. > > In addition, somewhat controversially, we agreed to create fake PMs for any players who wanted one. They just provided the role and the powers they wanted, and we created them. > > handshaking would have been impossible. There is literally NO way I can see that as trying to set Kelly up for a doomed handshaking attempt (even in the absence of reason to beleive Ed is not scum). He describes handshaking (in a snipped portion of the first quoted post), then goes on to say how it can be prevented. Then he spends a couple of posts detailing how he and Ulla had rendered it pointless in their own game. This is almost verging on too scummy to be scummy: I can’t see the justification for this argument at all (can’t see where it’s coming from, that is, from either a town-TexCat or scum-Texcat perspective). It’s just blatantly false characterization. > [@](#): > > ToDay, I have not liked the way that Ed has chided Silver Jan at every opportunity, but seems to be waiting for someone else to make the case and start voting her. Since I think Silver Jan is town, this looks to me like scum Ed is looking for an easy town lynch. > > None of these reasons are definitive, but my gut is telling me that Ed is scum. > > \*\*vote: special ed The second reason, calling Ed on his hesitation to vote, is thin but all right. But I don’t think it justifies a vote on him in itself, and I don’t buy the first reason. I want to see the votes at this point. Ok, this is just prior to TexCat’s vote: > [@](#): > > Silver Jan (4): special ed, Choie, Suburban Plankton, Red Skeezix, Inner Stickler > Askthepizzaguy (4): pedescribe, pedescribe, Spetimus, USCDiver > Septimus (4): Askthepizzaguy, Askthepizzaguy, Normal Phase, special ed > special ed (2): Silver Jan, Silver Jan > ShadowFacts (2): Normal Phase, Red Skeezix > Normal Phase (2): Choie, gnarlycharlie > Hirka T’Bawa (replacing Koldanar) (2): Mental Guy, LightFoot > MentalGuy (1): Stanislaus > gnarlycharlie (1): Mental Guy > TexCat (1): Suburban Plankton > USCDiver (1): gnarlycharlie > pedescribe (1): ShadowFacts A three-way tie. TexCat’s given verbal support to Silver Jan; has poked at Pizza but never indicated suspicion. She has questioned Septimus (and choie I believe) for reasons that were good enough to attract two townies. She had the option to put her vote on Septimus and break that tie; instead she votes a very weak case on Special Ed. I find potential scummy motive in TexCat’s mentioning of Special Ed this morning. I find potential fakery in her not seeming to understand why Special Ed was anything but surprising as a kill choice. She voted a case (on Special Ed) that was in part trumped up and in part just thin over a much better (and more vehemently stated, at that) case on someone she could have put in the vote lead over Silver Jan, whom she said she considered a townie. I dont’ think her behavior here makes sense from a townie perspective. If she were a townie I think she would have voted Septimus, at least at some point with one of her votes. **[color=blue]vote: Texcat** ---
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1008 "2011-07-26T16:44:53Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > I find potential scummy motive in TexCat’s mentioning of Special Ed this morning. I find potential fakery in her not seeming to understand why Special Ed was anything but surprising as a kill choice. She voted a case (on Special Ed) that was in part trumped up and in part just thin over a much better (and more vehemently stated, at that) case on someone she could have put in the vote lead over Silver Jan, whom she said she considered a townie. I dont’ think her behavior here makes sense from a townie perspective. If she were a townie I think she would have voted Septimus, at least at some point with one of her votes. I didn’t say there might not be 1000 different motives for scum to kill Ed. I’m sure you could come up with a dozen without breaking a sweat. I just said that **I** found it a surprising choice because I had thought he was scum. And that is exactly why I did not vote Septimus yesterday, because Ed, after pushing Silver Jan all day, suddenly voted for Septimus. From my obviously wrong point of view, that tended to make me lean town on Septimus and scum on Ed. It’s easy to argue that my case on Ed has flaws _now_. Is there some reason you didn’t point this out yesterday? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1009 "2011-07-26T16:46:59Z")
I may not be skilled at sniffing Scum, but I feel like I’m getting better at sniffing out bad cases. I didn’t join the Kelly bandwagon, nor did I vote SJ except at the end for self-preservation. And there is a case developing against ShadowFacts that I just can’t agree with. I read and re-read her posts without sensing Scum insincerity. I re-read Normal’s case against her, and it seems exaggerated. (I’m not saying I detect strong Town-tells from ShadowFacts, but the accusations seem very weak, and make me suspicious about the accusers. For example, one accusation against ShadowFacts is that she expressed suspicion against ATPG without voting him. Yet Shadow already had a vote down elsewhere; discussion had encouraged voteless FOS and discouraged uncertain 2nd votes. Right now my number one suspect is **Normal Phase**. She’s throwing votes and suspicions around. The final straw was her vote against TexCat, mainly for her suspicions of special ed, which TexCat admits were “gut feeling.” I know that Normal plays this way (a barrage of votes here and there) even as Town, but it raises suspicions, especially since most of her Targets seem more Town and sincere than Normal herself. Normal and ATPG have a very similar style in this game and often vote similarly. I do not think that both are Scum, and if only one is Scum that one is **Normal Phase**. I think she’s riding his coattails, hoping to get credibility if he is Lynched and flips Town. I’d rather Lynch Normal, with credibility to Pizza, when Normal flips Scum. My suspicions are not “OMGUS”: I certainly don’t think either Normal or Pizza “sucks”; instead both are people I’d be happy to be friends with in RL, both obviously very intelligent, and very good Mafia players. But both are players who could do an excellent job of fooling Town if Scum. I don’t want to focus on her case against me, which might seem a reasonable case. But she did lock in her votes on me when there were only 48 minutes left in the Day, without first inviting a role-claim. Reading the discussion between **ShadowFacts** and **Normal Phase** it is, as with Normal and Pizza, pretty easy to be sure that at most one of them is Scum. This is a good tactical reason to Lynch Normal. When she flips Scum, ShadowFacts and probably ATPG become semi-confirmed Town. (If Normal flips Town after all, we can look harder at ShadowFacts and ATPG.) Normals’ War of Words against **ShadowFacts** is enormous (dare I use the term “overkill”?) so obviously I can’t handle it point by point. Normal’s initial vote (#490) was in response to one statement by Shadow: “The shitty part of this, of course, is that (possible investigators notwithstanding) we know nothing more right now than we did after Kelly’s reveal.” Normal replies that scathach was probably killed by Mafia, and that Shadow pretends not to know that. Afraid too “know too much,” Shadow makes the mistake of “knowing too little.” A valid scum-tell? Maybe, but hardly worth the exaggerated emphasis Normal gives it. [QUOTE=Normal Phase in #809 and #810] Conclusion: [ShadowFacts is] scummy in satisfyingly deep ways. Shows multiple signs of fake towniness. Expressions of belief in someone’s innocence are hugely more convincing than his expressions of suspicion, which are, without exception disavowed or backed away from in one way or another. … And a couple other thigns nobody but me will ever see. Bottom line, if ShadowFacts is a townie he has to be: extremely confident about meta-game pronouncements and expressions of confidence in other players; un-confident about prouncements of sucpicion and extremely unconfident about votes, all at the same time. I don’t buy it. First, weird is not scummy. Second, bad criticism of another player. Lack of conviction in his own vote. … This whole post makes my teeth itch, though once again it’s very hard to explain. … False townie perspective. This actually pings a little bit less than the last bit that’s in black, but it’s harder to explain. … Another vote, another pile of scum tells. Over-explanation. … Finally, conspicuously prodding the lurkers. Scum just adore doing this. … Inappropriate caution. … Challenged by ATPG to put his money where his mouth is, avoids direct engagement with the issue. [/QUOTE] I just do not think Shadow’s posts warrant the extreme suspicion that Normal has (or pretends to have). **Vote: Normal Phase** If I’m right, and Normal flips Scum, we’ve semi-confirmed two likely Townies: Shadow and Pizza. As for my own Lynch, it looks like it’s going ahead smoothly. 🆒 I wish there were a way the Vig could offer us advice without blowing his cover. If he has a good Scum candidate, fine, but otherwise best for Town might be to Lynch someone else (e.g. Normal !) and let the Vig terminate me toNight. I don’t know if I’m still immume (I PM’ed the Mod asking if I’d be informed of a Kill attempt, and got “No comment.”), but the Vig knows. It would be better to NK me toNight and Lynch another candidate toDay, than to Lynch me and for Vig to abstain from NK, or fire blindly. I am content to lay down my Life for the cause. _Ave, Imperator, morituri te salutant_. ---
**Author:** ![Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirka_T_Bawa)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1010 "2011-07-26T16:48:00Z")
Sorry I’ve been mostly absent toDay, I’m busy studying for my boards, which I take Thursday. I’ll be mostly away for the rest of the day and night. I’ll be on a break from my testing after Monday (when I take the Law). I’ll be checking the thread during my study breaks, so if something major happens, I’ll be around. But don’t expect much content from me till next week. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1011 "2011-07-26T17:14:13Z")
> [@TexCat](#): > > I didn’t say there might not be 1000 different motives for scum to kill Ed. I’m sure you could come up with a dozen without breaking a sweat. I just said that **I** found it a surprising choice because I had thought he was scum. And that is exactly why I did not vote Septimus yesterday, because Ed, after pushing Silver Jan all day, suddenly voted for Septimus. From my obviously wrong point of view, that tended to make me lean town on Septimus and scum on Ed. > > It’s easy to argue that my case on Ed has flaws _now_. Is there some reason you didn’t point this out yesterday? That’s fine for today, but it hardly makes sense for yesterday: when you voted, Ed had votes on _both_ Silver Jan and Septimus. He didn’t unvote Silver Jan until there was very little time left in the day. That absolutely cannot be a genuine rationale for voting Ed and not Septimus yesterday. I didn’t point out the flaws in your argument on Ed yesterday because neither you nor Ed were much on my radar; it took going back to look today, to see it. Further, this appears a disingenuous question: what could I possibly have answered that would help you distinguish scum-me from town-me? What were you looking for by asking? ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1012 "2011-07-26T17:40:14Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I may not be skilled at sniffing Scum, but I feel like I’m getting better at sniffing out bad cases. I didn’t join the Kelly bandwagon, nor did I vote SJ except at the end for self-preservation. As has been pointed out, this is hardly a solid indicator of innocence. PIS or third-party stay-below-the-radar-itis explains it just as easily. > [@](#): > > And there is a case developing against ShadowFacts that I just can’t agree with. I read and re-read her posts without sensing Scum insincerity. I re-read Normal’s case against her, and it seems exaggerated. (I’m not saying I detect strong Town-tells from ShadowFacts, but the accusations seem very weak, and make me suspicious about the accusers. For example, one accusation against ShadowFacts is that she expressed suspicion against ATPG without voting him. Yet Shadow already had a vote down elsewhere; discussion had encouraged voteless FOS and discouraged uncertain 2nd votes. As I said to ShadowFacts himself when he cherry-picked this out of all my reasons to respond to: that’s the weakest indicator against him. (He’s a guy, btw.) If you legitimately don’t see the other issues, that’s fine; a lot of them are subtle and very nearly idiosyncratic to me. But that doesn’t make it a dishonest case. (BTW I am still very likely to vote him again. Given the situation with you I saw no reason not to give him some space for a while and look at other people.) > [@](#): > > Right now my number one suspect is **Normal Phase**. She’s throwing votes and suspicions around. The final straw was her vote against TexCat, mainly for her suspicions of special ed, which TexCat admits were “gut feeling.” I know that Normal plays this way (a barrage of votes here and there) even as Town, but it raises suspicions, especially since most of her Targets seem more Town and sincere than Normal herself. So I do this as town, but it’s still a reason for suspicion in itself. Got it. (“Even as town” is mischaracterization by the way, though I don’t expect you to know that. I do it MORE as town for a simple reason: it makes enemies, including of mis-suspected townies, and townies (especially vanilla ones) have much less to lose by that.) > [@](#): > > Normal and ATPG have a very similar style in this game and often vote similarly. I do not think that both are Scum, and if only one is Scum that one is **Normal Phase**. I think she’s riding his coattails, hoping to get credibility if he is Lynched and flips Town. I’d rather Lynch Normal, with credibility to Pizza, when Normal flips Scum. And if I flip town? > [@](#): > > My suspicions are not “OMGUS”: I certainly don’t think either Normal or Pizza “sucks”; instead both are people I’d be happy to be friends with in RL, both obviously very intelligent, and very good Mafia players. But both are players who could do an excellent job of fooling Town if Scum. I don’t want to focus on her case against me, which might seem a reasonable case. But she did lock in her votes on me when there were only 48 minutes left in the Day, without first inviting a role-claim. And that makes it an unreasonable or scummy case how? And I notice you’ve gone from some vague “machinations” involved in almost getting you lynched to blaming it on me alone, despite that I alone would have had no reason to believe my vote change would have any effect at all beyond putting my votes in the most useful place possible? Why don’t you want to focus on my case against you? If you were a dead certain lynch for today that would be one thing, but I don’t think you are, yet. > [@](#): > > Reading the discussion between **ShadowFacts** and **Normal Phase** it is, as with Normal and Pizza, pretty easy to be sure that at most one of them is Scum. This is a good tactical reason to Lynch Normal. When she flips Scum, ShadowFacts and probably ATPG become semi-confirmed Town. (If Normal flips Town after all, we can look harder at ShadowFacts and ATPG.) Oh please. One day one, sure, but we’ve had two townie mislynches already. At this point if you are honest, you should not be hedging your bets on me by offering the “plus side” if you are wrong. > [@](#): > > Normals’ War of Words against **ShadowFacts** is enormous (dare I use the term “overkill”?) so obviously I can’t handle it point by point. Normal’s initial vote (#490) was in response to one statement by Shadow: > “The shitty part of this, of course, is that (possible investigators notwithstanding) we know nothing more right now than we did after Kelly’s reveal.” > Normal replies that scathach was probably killed by Mafia, and that Shadow pretends not to know that. Afraid too “know too much,” Shadow makes the mistake of “knowing too little.” A valid scum-tell? Maybe, but hardly worth the exaggerated emphasis Normal gives it. So it might be valid as a scum tell, but you don’t like that I called him out on it. Well allrighty then. > [@](#): > > I just do not think Shadow’s posts warrant the extreme suspicion that Normal has (or pretends to have). That’s nice; I do. Though your defense of him is starting to make me wonder. If you do flip scum I am very much going to have to re-evaluate him. > [@](#): > > [color=Blue]\*\*Vote: Normal Phase > > If I’m right, and Normal flips Scum, we’ve semi-confirmed two likely Townies: Shadow and Pizza. Again, that’s nice. What are you going to say when I flip town? > [@](#): > > As for my own Lynch, it looks like it’s going ahead smoothly. 🆒 I wish there were a way the Vig could offer us advice without blowing his cover. If he has a good Scum candidate, fine, but otherwise best for Town might be to Lynch someone else (e.g. Normal !) and let the Vig terminate me toNight. I don’t know if I’m still immume (I PM’ed the Mod asking if I’d be informed of a Kill attempt, and got “No comment.”), but the Vig knows. It would be better to NK me toNight and Lynch another candidate toDay, than to Lynch me and for Vig to abstain from NK, or fire blindly. I am content to lay down my Life for the cause. _Ave, Imperator, morituri te salutant_. I don’t even know how to respond to this, except that on the chance that Septimus is scum (and most certainly if he ever flips as such), the vig and all other power roles should be very concerned about a scum watcher. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1013 "2011-07-26T17:49:06Z")
Actually I half take that last part back: if he is just a PFK with bulletproof, he probably knows he was not attacked last night, and is just begging for it to happen so he can “prove” his claim. So there are potential motives both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1014 "2011-07-26T19:05:25Z")
I’ve been very busy at work today, so I haven’t been able to follow the thread as closely as I normally do, but I’m going to step in and **vote Texcat** \*\*Normal \*\*has some good points about \*\*Texcat’s \*\*case against **Ed**. I agree that it doesn’t seem genuine. That combined with the **Septimus** /\*\*choie \*\*kerfluffle that he started and then walked away from, lead me to renew my vote. To sum up, He votes \*\*Kelly \*\*on Day 1, calling in to question \*\*Kelly’s \*\*attempt at handshaking, which had already been addressed by the Mods in the rules. On Day 2, he makes his post about \*\*Septimus \*\*and \*\*choie \*\*‘snuggling’; something which he never addresses again, despite everyone else putting in their 2 cents on the topic. Later in Day 2, he tells us that he was suspicious of \*\*Ed \*\*on Day 1, despite the fact that he never mentioned it at the time…and since \*\*Ed \*\*is voting for **Silver Jan** , who he thinks is Town, he votes **Ed**. We’re not sure why he thinks Silver Jan is Town, because he has also never mentioned this before. Day 3, he reminds us that he thought \*\*Ed \*\*was Scum (in case we thought he voted \*\*Ed \*\*for some other reason?), especially after \*\*Jan \*\*flipped Town (to remind us that he always believed in her). He says that it’s unlikely that \*\*Septimus \*\*and choie are both \*\*Scum \*\*(which apparently means his suspicions about them ‘snuggling’ were in error?) \*\*Texcat \*\*seems to be laying low, trying to stir things up, but not willing to take any strong positions on anything. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1015 "2011-07-26T19:42:16Z")
TexCat is a she. I seem to be correcting gender all over the place this game. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1016 "2011-07-26T20:55:51Z")
Wish I could participate in this discussion- very glad that the days are so long. Off to work, be back in 9. ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1017 "2011-07-26T21:11:24Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > So in sum: Lots of equivocation, lots of protests about how little he knows about scum, lots of condoning of lynching people for being suspicious or noisy. Some defense of septimus which I am quite suspicous of, but will wait for a role-flip before judging. > > I am voting for septimus; if I were to use a second vote, it would be on Mental Guy. I do not have the time right now to go over the points you made individually, but I will reply to the overall case. I generally think in equivocal terms when I am considering the possibilities of something. That is really just part of who I am. I can’t say I wouldn’t be like that as scum, because I would, but I think if you look at past games I played, you would find plenty of examples of my equivocation as Town also. I don’t recall condoning the lynching of players for being noisy, but I did say it might not be a bad idea on some of the suspicious players since they would likely dominate the discussion and wind up getting lynched anyway. I did not really find the case on septimus compelling until he voted at the last minute, then survived the Night. In regard to the double votes, when I first talked about double votes, that was in the context of thinking any set of two votes would lock us in. I do not find the double voting near as problematic when you can change them and you are not required to double vote. In reading your case against me, I thought some things seemed like misrepresentations, but I am not going to vote you based on that one post, because overall, it seemed like you came up with a theory that I was scum based on some of my behavior, but then essentially used a sledge hammer to try to make everything fit into that theory. I will go back and give you a closer look later this evening, though. ---
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1018 "2011-07-27T00:33:23Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > I’ve been very busy at work today, so I haven’t been able to follow the thread as closely as I normally do, but I’m going to step in and > > **vote Texcat[** Ugh. Not following, but still voting? > [@](#): > > \*\*Normal \*\*has some good points about \*\*Texcat’s \*\*case against **Ed**. I agree that it doesn’t seem genuine. Some good points? Yes, well obviously, my case against Ed had flaws, namely that he flipped town. Why exactly doesn’t it seem genuine? Because I assure that it was. > [@](#): > > He votes \*\*Kelly \*\*on Day 1, calling in to question \*\*Kelly’s \*\*attempt at handshaking, which had already been addressed by the Mods in the rules. Huh? Didn’t a lot of us vote Kelly? In fact, a plurality? You, yourself voted Kelly, saying > [@](#): > > I think Kelly recognized that he was going to go down Today (the only competing bandwagon was on Askthepizzaguy, and while it started off strong, it seemed to have run its course by yesterday afternoon). He knew that a plain ol’ Vanilla claim was unlikely to cause many people to move their votes, so he tried a different tactic that he hoped would imply a “Scum wouldn’t do this” sort of vibe. I assumed that “different tactic” was a comment on his handshaking attempt. So you’re voting me for doing the same thing you did? > [@](#): > > On Day 2, he makes his post about \*\*Septimus \*\*and \*\*choie \*\*‘snuggling’; something which he never addresses again, despite everyone else putting in their 2 cents on the topic. I don’t believe I used the word snuggling at the time, but yeah, I pointed out what I thought was suspicious behavior. I didn’t think it was vote-worthy at the time, and didn’t later, so yeah, I didn’t harp on it. > [@](#): > > Later in Day 2, he tells us that he was suspicious of \*\*Ed \*\*on Day 1, despite the fact that he never mentioned it at the time..and since \*\*Ed \*\*is voting for **Silver Jan** , who he thinks is Town, he votes **Ed**. We’re not sure why he thinks Silver Jan is Town, because he has also never mentioned this before. Here we can really tell that you are not following along closely. I voted Ed, in part, because he chided her all day, and did NOT vote her. > [@](#): > > Day 3, he reminds us that he thought \*\*Ed \*\*was Scum (in case we thought he voted \*\*Ed \*\*for some other reason?), especially after \*\*Jan \*\*flipped Town (to remind us that he always believed in her). He says that it’s unlikely that \*\*Septimus \*\*and choie are both \*\*Scum \*\*(which apparently means his suspicions about them ‘snuggling’ were in error?) Huh? Do you have a different definition of snuggling? > [@](#): > > \*\*Texcat \*\*seems to be laying low, trying to stir things up, but not willing to take any strong positions on anything. Wow. That’s a lot to do all at the same time, isn’t it? Lay low AND stir things up? And yeah, I don’t take strong positions on things I don’t feel strongly about. But guess what? This post has made me feel strongly that you are a Lord of Slaughter. This post has scum bandwagon vote written all over it. First, the I haven’t been following along closely excuse. This is a scum excuse for a vote. There was no hurry to get a vote down, unless you just wanted to bandwagon, trying to get the momentum to roll my direction. Second, the mischaracterizing and falsifying my positions to make me look some how scummy. Not a good sign. Using my Kelly vote which was the same as yours, as a reason? \*\*Vote: Suburban Plankton \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1019 "2011-07-27T02:29:04Z")
> [@TexCat](#): > > Some good points? Yes, well obviously, my case against Ed had flaws, namely that he flipped town. Did he? That’s news to me. The only thing I know about Ed’s alignment is this: > [@Mahaloth](#): > > **Specialed** is dead, but you only found his head. Yes that rhymes. Because you only found his head, you can’t make “head” or tails out of who he was or what his allegiance was to. Did you read something different somewhere? ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1020 "2011-07-27T02:32:37Z")
You do have a point here though: > [@TexCat](#): > > Huh? Do you have a different definition of snuggling? That’s what I get for trying to squeeze in my thoughts during a busy work day. Your statement that \*\*septimus \*\*and \*\*choie \*\*are probably not both Scum is in no way inconsistent with your accusation of ‘snuggling’ earlier. My point that your a Scummy person who brought up the idea, stirred up trouble, then never addressed it again still stands, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=50) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=52)