# De'endee Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 6, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052 "2011-07-06T16:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 80
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1581 "2011-08-05T07:52:47Z")
> [@](#): > > ``` > Looks like I made it onto ATPG's suspect list. I missed that. > > ``` Hai Weedy. I’m busy doing stuff but I’d love to be able to chat. If you missed the above, would you like me to (very, very briefly) explain what’s up with such suspicion? If you’re townie then my suspicion is wrong but at least I’d like you to know where it is coming from. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1582 "2011-08-05T08:10:29Z")
Yes, go ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1583 "2011-08-05T08:15:13Z")
> [@Weedy](#): > > Yes, go ahead. I can pull out the links and go into quotes and everything and give you the full blown version, but for your sake I’ll just give you the plain version, since that’s what people like. In short, your vote on day 2 spared septimus at the end of that round. Your vote on day 3 spared septimus at the end of that round. The timing is what’s scummy, and septimus was scum. You then went ahead with the wagon today, after there was some strong evidence presented that septimus cannot be townie and the wagon had already started rolling hard down on his head. The premise is, three saves is too much, and the timing of the first two was too coincidental; you had to bus septimus this round or else it would look truly bizarre. That’s not ironclad by any means. It’s also true of Inner Stickler, and Suburban Plankton. And, of the three of you, not all three are going to be Lords of Slaughter. BUT, I do think at least one is. I’m trying to find out who. And I think choie could be one as well, given her non-vote defense of septimus, her argument that he wasn’t behaving scummy. Does this make sense? It’s as legitimate a suspicion as you’ll find anywhere. That said, I admit, it can all be coincidence and you can still be townie. But I really think the odds of me being wrong on all 4 of you are astronomical. So, if you’re townie, help me figure out why you’re townie, please. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1584 "2011-08-05T08:42:34Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > I’m going to be completely honest: I can’t refute your case on **septimus** because I didn’t read your case on **septimus**. I simply cannot keep up with the walls of words and you’ve thrown out so many scenarios and possibilities and hypotheses that I cannot follow anymore. You’ve exhausted me, outplayed me, and demoralized me. I can see now how this is going to play out and I congratulate you. > > I can also see that using my vote power isn’t going to make a difference today. Anyone around not named **Pizza** or **Normal** want to get a Message from me? 🆒 Also, I really hate to continue to be a thorn in ShadowFacts’ side, but… If I have a fifth name on the list, it is still **ShadowFacts**. The above is possible from townies, and I understand; I’ve exhausted players before, both townie and scum. I remember one particularly epic and brutal game that lasted some 3 months and had 70 players… at the end, one of my allies all game long I had finally determined was a lying scumbag, and though he was dead, I was hell-bent on refuting everything and making sure he was exhaustively discredited, even though the results on him hadn’t come back yet (3 game day delay on results). He finally gave up and that was game, since there was only a single scumbag remaining anyway, but he put up an epic fight. Anyway I’m like an old man who is always living in the past and reminiscing, but I am also a person who likes to use figures of speech, metaphor, and citing examples when I talk. Anyway, ShadowFacts could be a universal backup, or he could be a soul-stealing scumbag. That explains why he didn’t respond to any of the arguments in Skeezix’ favor, didn’t bother to look at septimus as scum, refused to give up his vote power, and threatened in advance to use it on Skeezix. I have every reason to believe SF will use the block on Skeezix, too. Fine! When another murder happens, maybe that will prove Skeezix didn’t do it. Or, Skeezix will die, ending all debate. Or, no murders will happen, again. What’s the downside again? Oh yeah, no dead scumbag. I think he’s got ulterior motive for what he’s doing. That said, he’s a remarkably smooth player. He didn’t even flinch \*once \*all game that I can tell regarding the septimus fiasco. And, he’s been very, very even on if I am townie or not. He hasn’t been flopping all over the place like a fish, and has borne the direct assault of pizzaguy for like 2 rounds now without much complaint. I like it. I can’t say he’s townie, he could be scum, but I like this play. It’s frighteningly good. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1585 "2011-08-05T09:22:46Z")
Hmm, my vote on Silver Jan on Day 2 was well before the end of Day, and the Septimus train. My second vote on texcat was a last minute vote. That wasn’t about Septimus, it was about Shadowfacts. I know the timing on that was bad, but I had like 20 minutes between logging on in the morning, seeing SF’s claim, seeing a whole lot of pressure to vote for him, being concerned about last minute votes, needing more time to assess him, and End of Day. The thread was constantly updating even as I read it, and I didn’t have time to write a long post, or think it all through. I know, double votes, scary, but it was all happening too fast. It probably didn’t happen fast for you, because you were awake during it, but for me it was a lot to think about first thing in the morning. It seemed obvious to me to double down on Texcat, who I thought was scum (ok, I was wrong about that). I think SF was actually safe by the time I voted, but I wanted to make sure. Once people start voting at the end of day, everyone has to be careful, because you don’t know what might happen. I haven’t played with Septimus before, but I know him from the boards here. He is a bit of an odd duck, and hard for me to read in a game like this. Given his claim, I didn’t want to lynch him on manner alone. A lot of the time, I don’t like someone’s style, but they turn out to be Town. He did the last minute vote thing; that seems efficient to me. I would have been happy not to lynch him yesterday. He wasn’t going anywhere. Once everyone decided to lynch him, I was looking for something concrete to help me decide. I think what he posted about ‘being Vanilla now’ confirmed Red Skeezix’s story of a vig attempt, but the next day he denied it. I think I have said all this before, and it’s not what you are talking about. Did I vote for Silver Jan? yes, I did. In retrospect. I should have voted for Septimus. By the end of the game, I will know exactly who I should have voted for on Day 1, 2, 3, etc (well, I wasn’t here on Day 1, but who Romanic should have voted for). Did I know at the time? No. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1586 "2011-08-05T09:36:26Z")
> [@Weedy](#): > > Hmm, my vote on Silver Jan on Day 2 was well before the end of Day, and the Septimus train. Yes. In fact my earlier note where I said “hold off on the Weedy assassination” was based on some of your Day 2 vote moves. I have to check the tally at the time, but you unvoted while septimus had votes on him, iirc. I made a note to go back and check the tally here, as it could indicate your apathy towards a septimus lynch. 488 ATPG Vote: Septimus 490 Normal vote: ShadowFacts 528 Pizza: “Oh gawd. Vote: septimus Locking it in, for obvious reasons.” 531 Stanislaus votes Special ed 542 Mental Guy votes charlie, Koldanar 543 Normal vote: gnarlycharlie 544 Ed vote Normal Phase, Pizza 553 pedescribe double Vote: AskthePizzaGuy 566 choie Vote: Silver, Normal 569 Silver Vote choie 572 septimus votes ATPG 575 Shadow vote Silver Jan 588 Ed Unvote: AskThePizzaGuy Vote: Silver Jan 591 Stanlislaus unvote special ed 595 Suburban votes Silver, choie 597 Lightfoot Vote Koldanar 601 Red votes Silver, ShadowFacts 610 Inner Stickler Vote Silver Jan 611 Weedy vote askthepizzaguy 628 Diver vote Askthepizzaguy 649 gnarly votes Diver, Normal 658 Normal unvote gnarlycharlie, vote Septimus 659 Stanislaus vote Mental Guy 662 Shadow Unvote Silver Jan 680 Ed unvote: Normal Phase, vote: septimus 721 Jan Vote Special Ed 722 Suburban unvote choie, vote texcat **740 Weedy unvote Askthepizzaguy [CHECK TALLY!!!]** 752 Jan unvotes, votes special ed (lock) **761 Weedy vote special ed [CHECK TALLY!!!]** 763 Hirka T’Bawa has joined the game. He is replacing Koldanar. Welcome, Hirka T’Bawa! 770 ShadowFacts vote pedescribe **773 Weedy unvote special ed [CHECK TALLY!!!]** 783 TexCat votes special ed 790 Red unvote ShadowFacts 791 Weedy vote SilverJan 812 Shadow votes Normal 820 Hirka votes Shadow 821 Lightfoot votes Diver 826 Hirka lock votes Shadow 829 Normal unvote ShadowFacts, lock vote Septimus 830 Special ed unvote, lock vote septimus 838 septimus lock votes Silver Without doing an in-depth check, I think there were at least 3 or 4 votes on him at the time, and the tally on anyone else couldn’t have been much larger. That’s why I think I can be mistaken about you. The nearest tally I could find to that time frame was 776: > [@](#): > > **Silver Jan (4): special ed, Choie, Suburban Plankton, Red Skeezix, Inner Stickler > Askthepizzaguy (4): pedescribe, pedescribe, Spetimus, USCDiver > Septimus (4): Askthepizzaguy, Askthepizzaguy, Normal Phase, special ed** > special ed (2): Silver Jan, Silver Jan > ShadowFacts (2): Normal Phase, Red Skeezix > Normal Phase (2): Choie, gnarlycharlie > Hirka T’Bawa (replacing Koldanar) (2): Mental Guy, LightFoot > MentalGuy (1): Stanislaus > gnarlycharlie (1): Mental Guy > TexCat (1): Suburban Plankton > USCDiver (1): gnarlycharlie > pedescribe (1): ShadowFacts As such, yeah… you seem entirely unperturbed by the prospect of septimus’ death. Then again, you could be cool as a cucumber. That said, I like playing with folks who are cool as a cucumber and I’m willing to toss them some benefit of the doubt. > [@](#): > > My second vote on texcat was a last minute vote. That wasn’t about Septimus, it was about Shadowfacts. I know the timing on that was bad, but I had like 20 minutes between logging on in the morning, seeing SF’s claim, seeing a whole lot of pressure to vote for him, being concerned about last minute votes, needing more time to assess him, and End of Day. The thread was constantly updating even as I read it, and I didn’t have time to write a long post, or think it all through. I know, double votes, scary, but it was all happening too fast. Yes; and I can buy this explanation as plausible. > [@](#): > > It probably didn’t happen fast for you, because you were awake during it, but for me it was a lot to think about first thing in the morning. It seemed obvious to me to double down on Texcat, who I thought was scum (ok, I was wrong about that). I think SF was actually safe by the time I voted, but I wanted to make sure. Once people start voting at the end of day, everyone has to be careful, because you don’t know what might happen. True enough. > [@](#): > > I haven’t played with Septimus before, but I know him from the boards here. He is a bit of an odd duck, and hard for me to read in a game like this. Given his claim, I didn’t want to lynch him on manner alone. A lot of the time, I don’t like someone’s style, but they turn out to be Town. He did the last minute vote thing; that seems efficient to me. I would have been happy not to lynch him yesterday. He wasn’t going anywhere. Once everyone decided to lynch him, I was looking for something concrete to help me decide. I think what he posted about ‘being Vanilla now’ confirmed Red Skeezix’s story of a vig attempt, but the next day he denied it. Mmm… > [@](#): > > I think I have said all this before, and it’s not what you are talking about. Did I vote for Silver Jan? yes, I did. In retrospect. I should have voted for Septimus. By the end of the game, I will know exactly who I should have voted for on Day 1, 2, 3, etc (well, I wasn’t here on Day 1, but who Romanic should have voted for). Did I know at the time? No. Yes. It’s not an ironclad defense, but then again, it’s not an ironclad accusation either. Thank you for your responses. As I noted above, your vote moves on D2 are striking to me. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1587 "2011-08-05T09:57:28Z")
\*\*1. Suburban Plankton \*\*or \*\*choie **(will be voted next)** 2. Inner Stickler **(bumped up by default, will be questioning next)** 3. ShadowFacts \*\*(bumped up by default) 4. \*\*Weedy \*\*(timing not \*quite \*as incriminating, explanation is more plausible but not exonerating, case against isn’t as strong) ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1588 "2011-08-05T10:21:50Z")
Now you are being all polite. I’m not sure what to make of that, but I can’t say I don’t appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1589 "2011-08-05T10:24:49Z")
After some thinking, here’s my revised suggested plan of action: [ul] [li]Block **choie** [/li][li]Scan **pedescribe** [/li][li]Leave diver and others alone for this round. Possible scan later on.[/li][li]Assassinate \*\*Weedy \*\*or **Suburban Plankton** [/li][li]Lynch \*\*Weedy \*\*or **Suburban Plankton** [/li][li]Protect **Lightfoot** , or[/li][li]Paranoid Protec/Block **Lightfoot** , or use it on \*\*ATPG \*\*if you want to take a big gamble. But I don’t advise.[/li][/ul] And here’s my revised, revised suggested plan of action: 1. assassinate \*\*pedescribe \*\*or **Suburban Plankton** 2. lynch \*\*choie \*\*or **Suburban Plankton** 3. block **choie** 4. scan someone at **random** , or scan **ShadowFacts** 5. Protect \*\*Lightfoot \*\*(normal doc) 6. Protect \*\*Lightfoot \*\*or \*\*ATPG \*\*(paranoid doc) 7. Question\*\* Inner Stickler\*\* (I think we can get what we need just from asking questions, but we’ll see how the answers look) > [@](#): > > Now you are being all polite. I’m not sure what to make of that, but I can’t say I don’t appreciate it. There’s a time for theatrical accusations and big exclamation points; it helps pressure folks, and it also helps get votes where they need to go. But when all I’m looking for is answers, all I really need to do is ask. I usually start with just questions, or just basic accusations. It doesn’t get into loud and impolite mode unless someone is really tickling my nose, ignoring me, or giving answers I find false. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1590 "2011-08-05T11:09:25Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Just out of curiosity, why \*\*Septimus \*\*necessarily? You could achieve the same result by voting for **Askthepizzaguy**. **DAMNING.** look at the context. Suburban is septimus’ partner, I’m above 90% certain on this now. **9/10 scum reading.** ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1591 "2011-08-05T11:29:54Z")
> [@Weedy](#): > > Just realised that the vig idea is a very bad one :smack: Just for completeness sake, what did you mean by this post, Weedy? ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1592 "2011-08-05T12:13:17Z")
Finally! I don’t think killing pedescribe is necessarily a good move. If he’s town, he’s an asset simply by being alive and helping outnumber the scum. The loss of his vote is significant, of course but frankly I reckon that makes him more likely to be town than scum (other than the base odds) - scum wouldn’t let one of their few members give up their influence for so long, surely. Plus, we get bugger all info from his death. He’s a better candidate for investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1593 "2011-08-05T12:18:02Z")
Another cute moment from the re-read… right around where the big three-way vote tension was happening, and I was arguing septimus was townie, and Shadow needed to die… note how uncomfortable everyone was with \*\*both \*\*those arguments, even the folks who were sure they didn’t want septimus dead. > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > I get the feeling Diver’s vote on septimus is meant specifically to spare ShadowFacts. > > If he wanted to vote for septimus on that reasoning he should have done it earlier in the round. > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > That may be the most sensible thing you’ve said all Day. > > I’m still not quite convinced by the case on \*\*ShadowFacts \*\*at the moment. I’m actually increasingly certain of my vote on \*\*Texcat \*\*owing to the fact that she hasn’t really done much to either defend herself or to make any arguments of her own. Of course, that creates a tie for 2nd place, which would potentially give the Scum even more of an opportunity to control the lynch (in the event that I am incorrect). I’m not prepared to do that just yet. > > **LightFoot** , I would like very much to see a vote from you Today. > > On preview, I see that \*\*ShadowFacts \*\*has claimed. I’m posting this now, and will them go back and evaluate the new information The underlining. Suburban doesn’t want septimus dead, doesn’t want ShadowFacts dead as an alternative. In fact, very few people wanted to toss Shadow under the bus for septimus, townie or presumed otherwise. The dithering followed by the sudden mass action on TexCat just screams something very wrong. With the tension near septimus’ near-death, but the seeming inability for anyone to throw ShadowFacts under the bus for septimus, I have a strong feeling that ShadowFacts belongs right up there with the others once again. \*\*1. Suburban Plankton [9/10] or ShadowFacts [8/10] 2. choie [7/10] \*\*Really having trouble finding a solid number 3 or 4 now. Weedy, Stickler, even folks like MentalGuy, gnarlycharlie… it’s tough. I haven’t got much on anyone else. \*\*3. Stickler / Weedy, maybe? 😕 [3/10] 4. pedescribe, I guess… :rolleyes: \<— [1/10] I’m really convinced, can’t you tell? **and I agree with what you just said, Stanislaus. I’m still revising and revising where I stand due to the massive re-read I just did. Leave pedescribe alone for at least 1 full round, day/night. Re-focus on Suburban Plankton, ShadowFacts, and choie. However way you like.** I got this thing made of gold coming in like 10 minutes… 😉 \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1594 "2011-08-05T12:31:53Z")
**Septimus and votes, Part I** Day one, Night one, Day 2 [spoiler]134 Game begins 135 136 **137 ATPG votes Red Skeezix** 138 **139 septimus post** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14005614&postcount=139](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14005614&postcount=139) “And I’ll be faced with a “moral quandary.” Assuming Dusk is early evening Chicago time, I’ll be sound asleep in my timezone. I’ll have to either cast a single vote instead of two (and thus not get 'My money’s worth”!) or commit before all the arguments and claims are in." **140 Normal votes Tom** 141 **142 septimus post** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14005839&postcount=142](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14005839&postcount=142) “Hi, Peeker, my once and future fellow Mason!” 143 144 **145 septimus post** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14005839&postcount=145](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14005839&postcount=145) “Meanwhile, what’s with the Mafia game? I guess we’re waiting for someone to say something stupid. Given my track record, it’ll probably be me …” 146 Normal mentions septimus 147 148 149 **150 pedescribe votes choie** 151 152 153 154 ATPG offers to lynch septimus today “I would also be willing to lynch septimus today, for drawing attention to himself but-not-really. Seems like playing at nervousness to disguise true feelings.” 155 156 157 Gnarlycharlie mentions septimus “i’ve played with him a couple of times. to be fair, he’s always like that. he was town in both games and he did make me a couple of times.” 158 **159 Stan votes pedescribe** 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 **167 septimus post** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14005839&postcount=167](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14005839&postcount=167) “So given the mechanic, it’s hard to ask players not to use it.” 168 **169 Suburban votes special ed** 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 **184 pede unvotes choie** 185 186 187 **188 septimus post** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14005839&postcount=167](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14005839&postcount=167) “We might need exceptions for the late game, both to Hammer and to prevent scum dog-piling when we’re down to less than 7 players or so, but otherwise this may solve both problems of the voting mechanics. Having a pre-deadline seems tedious, but that was being proposed in other solutions as well.” 189 190 191 **192 Stan responds to septimus** “I agree that this is the logical way to do it. But I genuinely doubt whether a group of rugged individualists such as us can make it work.” 193 194 195 **196 Normal unvotes, votes Kelly** 197 **198 choie responds to septimus** "Isn’t this advocating for a dangerous sort of bandwagoning? A suggestion whereby everyone must vote for the highest vote-getter, and to do otherwise means the minority person is definitely scum and lynch-worthy? I’m not saying that the fair town of De’endee is a democracy, but this notion seems draconian to me. Or am I misunderstanding it? " 199 200 201 **202 SF responds to septimus** “I tried to organize something like this in one of my first games here (may even have been the first, I can’t remember). It was impossible, because it only works if everyone does it, and not everyone will do it. And it’s impossible to enforce, because there are a host of reasons - often involving real life - why one might not make the deadline(s). Based on my experience, I just don’t think it’s feasible.” **203 Shadow unvotes, votes Kelly** **204 Stan unvotes, votes Kelly** 205 206 207 208 209 210 **211 Scathach unvotes, votes Koldanar** 212 **213 Kelly votes Normal Phase** 214 Diver replaces Tom Scud 215 216 **217 Mental votes Kelly** 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 **225 Pizza unvotes, votes Koldanar** 226 **227 Silver votes Normal** **228 gnarly votes Pizza** 229 230 231 232 **233 Red votes Jan** 234 235 236 237 **238 Koldanar votes Pizza** 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 **247 choie votes Kelly** **248 septimus votes Pizza** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14005839&postcount=248](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14005839&postcount=248) “Thus it seems almost certain to me that Askthepizzaguy is NOT a Town Power. But is he just a Vanilla who, despite much discussion, hasn’t considered the tactic needed by Town Powers, or is he Scum trying to discourage Vanilla from the late Lynchee vote? If Scum get away with such discouraging it will be very bad for Town, as one of three things will happen:” 249 **250 Plankton unvotes special ed** 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 Pizza- “Take a closer look at Koldanar and septimus, whenever you get the chance. That is my conclusion from the activity on day one.” 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 Pizza- “I consider that talking aloud to no-one-in-particular thing that septimus did to be far scummier than anything Kelly did. That speaks of fakery. I still need to get to know septimus, but I’ve seen it too often from fake fake fakes in my time to just let it slide, especially for a day one no-one-better situation.” 268 269 270 271 Normal “I do see what askthepizzaguy is saying about Septimus. The case had a bit of a rhetorical air to it. I almost always find Septimus scummy, at least at first, but I’ll buy that he’s worth paying attention to.” 272 273 **274 Silver Jan unvotes NP** 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 **285 Jan votes Kelly** 286 287 288 289 290 pedescribe to septimus “This is just plain wrong. You are conflating two ways one could get XP: -Using a second vote on the Lynch Leader -Switching their main vote to the lynch leader Atpg came out against the first one only, yet you seem to think he disapproves of both.” 291 292 **293 Scathach unvote koldanar, vote Kelly** 294 **295 Ed votes Kelly** 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 **315 TexCat votes Kelly** 316 317 Pizza: “I would also vote for Septimus, but I’m not done working Koldanar over, and I’m not going to use my second vote unless I think it’s rather important.” 318 **319 Mental unvotes, Vote Koldanar** 320 321 322 323 **324 Jan unvotes, Vote Romanic** 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 **338 Normal Phase unvote vote: Septimus** “Because having looked at it again, I very much agree with ATPG’s assessment of Septimus’ vote post on him. I have issues with it on its content, but the vote is for its style. It looks very carefully constructed, and that is both characteristic of scum at times (it’s a tendency of my own I have to fight constantly when I’m not town) and uncharacteristic of Septimus as a townie.” 339 340 341 **342 Suburban votes Kelly** 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 **360 Shadow unvotes, Vote Silver Jan** **361 Lightfoot votes Kelly** 362 Pizza: “Tomorrow, I will be pushing for septimus, unless he winds up dead or something more interesting catches my eye” **363 Romanic vote: Koldanar** 364 365 **366 Jan Unvote Romanic** 367 368 **369 pedescribe Vote: Silver Jan** **370 septimus post** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14005839&postcount=370](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14005839&postcount=370) “Thus it seems almost certain to me that Askthepizzaguy is NOT a Town Power. But is he just a Vanilla who, despite much discussion, hasn’t considered the tactic needed by Town Powers, or is he Scum trying to discourage Vanilla from the late Lynchee vote? If Scum get away with such discouraging it will be very bad for Town, as one of three things will happen:” **371 Ed Vote: Septimus** “I agree with ATPG’s suspicions to some extent, though I am still quite displeased with Kelly’s handshake debacle.” **372 Ed unvote: septimus vote: special ed** 373 Suburban Plankton “Normal Phase unvotes to vote for Septimus (Post 338). He takes issue with the post in which Septimus votes for Askthepizzaguy, and seems to be voting based on that post alone. I don’t personally think there’s anything wrong with that post.” 374 375 Normal: “@ Septimus: what the point of the Lie Detector thing? Given no reason whatsoever to believe that there is one, it just looks looks like a pose. I’ll have a drink with anyone, though.” 376 377 378 379 380 381 **382 Jan Vote Pedescribe** 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 **397 NP vote: KellyCriterion** 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 **411 Scathach vote Koldanar** 412 413 414 415 **416 Jan Vote Koldanar** 417 418 **419 choie vote Silver Jan** 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 **429 Mental Vote Silver Jan** 430 **431 Mental Unvote Silver Jan 432 Diver votes Kelly, Jan 433 Plankton vote Silver Jan** 434 435 **436 special ed unvotes, vote: Suburban Plankton** 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 **449 Ed unvotes, vote: KellyCriterion** 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 **460 KellyCriterion, an NPC townsperson and One of the Defenders of De’endee, is dead. Night has fallen, and will last until July 16th at 6pm. All night actions must be submitted before that time.** 461 462 463 464 465 466 Pizza “I also still think you’re scummy for now. But we shall see.” **467 septimus post** “Anyway, it’s customary to imbibe virtual ethanol during the Night. Any suggestions? In my time-zone I’m still working on my “late morning” coffees.” 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 **479 Scathach has been killed. Sadly, there isn’t enough left of him to identify. Day 2 has arrived. Nightfall will occur on July 21st at 6pm central time. There are 19 remaining players, and the hammer number is 12.** 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 **488 ATPG Vote: Septimus** “Vote: Septimus To follow up on yesterday’s suspicion. Regardless of formality of wording, I felt that Septimus’ suspicion on me was less than genuine. His accusation of me seemed far too certain for someone who supposedly knows nothing. Innocents may have suspicion but rarely do they think they’ve caught a scumbag for sure on day one just based the posts of someone they haven’t played with before. Unless Septimus is brand new to these sorts of games, that behavior struck me as illegitimate and fake. It doesn’t follow from an experienced player.” 489 **490 Normal vote: ShadowFacts** "On Septimus – “sleeping on it” overnight, that “hey lie detector” bit I complained about, while pointless, is in fact a rather good approximation of the scummy-townie Septimus I know and love. So he’s sidling back to neutral for me. Koldanar I’m not sure, need to look at him too. " 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 **ShadowFacts** - "ATPG, in this post, your case against septimus seems particularly vague - it’s all about his wording and level of certainty. If you want to convince me or anyone to vote for septimus, I suggest you tell us exactly what he said that tipped your scum-meter. You know, with quotes and stuff. If you’ve already done this, that’s cool, just link us to it. " 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 **Stanislaus** : "One other thing I wanted to comment on: Pizza, you do know that not only was your idea of late pile-on voting discussed at length and rejected yesterDay, but that one of the major advocates of the plan was Septimus? Had you even done a cursory review of his posts? " 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 Pizza: "As for Septimus, the case on him is simply that his post where he voted me seemed to be far too much for a day one vote. It was overkill IMO. I could quote that post again, but I’m not really in the mood, and if it didn’t convince you the first time, it won’t the second time. If that costs me your vote, _shrug_ " **525 septimus post** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14034115&postcount=525](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14034115&postcount=525) “Perhaps for my pizza vote, “voting for obvious reasons” would have sufficed” 526 527 **528 Pizza: “Oh gawd. Vote: septimus Locking it in, for obvious reasons.”** 529 530 Pizza: “I feel septimus needs real pressure. Two votes might make it clear how serious I am about that.” **531 Stanislaus votes Special ed** 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 Plankton post: “Well, they certainly weren’t obvious to me.” **542 Mental Guy votes charlie, Koldanar** **543 Normal vote: gnarlycharlie** **544 Ed vote Normal Phase, Pizza** 545 546 547 548 549 550 551 552 **553 pedescribe double Vote: AskthePizzaGuy** “AskthePizzaGuy is leading the town around by the nose. He’s playing in a way that is blatantly anti-town–leading bandwagons based on less than intuition, and proposing anti-town ideas out of the opposite side of his mouth that’s denouncing septimus for those ideas.” 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 565 **566 choie Vote: Silver, Normal** 567 568 **569 Silver Vote choie** 570 571 **572 septimus votes ATPG** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14038200&postcount=572](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14038200&postcount=572) "I’ve been rereading pizza’s case against me, and it seems to be groundless. One of his posts caught my eye: … He’s never made a real case against me, but he wants others to think he did. Maybe he’s “just being anti-Town” but we can’t give that a completely free ride. (Otherwise, Scum could get credibility by acting anti-Town! ) Vote: AskthePizzaGuy 573 574 **575 Shadow vote Silver Jan** 576 577 578 579 580 581 choie “Thanks septimus! Good advice (I think, assuming you’re not scum ). You’re right about gauging sincerity.” 582 583 584 585 586 587 **588 Ed Unvote: AskThePizzaGuy Vote: Silver Jan** 589 590 **591 Stanlislaus unvote special ed** 592 593 594 **595 Suburban votes Silver, choie** 596 **597 Lightfoot Vote Koldanar** 598 Pizza “I have to do some digging, but Septimus is either incorrect due to a simple mistake, or lying, when he says the only time I ever quoted him was that one time.” 599 Pizza: “Here, he thinks I am not scum due to my zany behavior, but for obvious reasons he still wants me dead.” 600 TexCat: "I am a little concerned about the coziness I see in the posts between septimus and choie. … First the newbie card, then the excuse for being quiet. When she talks about “the innocent town folk on my team”, it seems a little too much to me. Particularly when one of her reasons for voting Silver Jan were Jan’s constant proclamations of towniness. Then the pre-excuses for the “crappy rationale-less vote”. Not much to like for me. What in particular did you like about it, septimus? " **601 Red votes Silver, ShadowFacts** 602 603 Pizza: “I’m still very sure septimus needs to go, but as I’ve handicapped myself and cannot move, I’ll verbally offer my support to at least the ShadowFacts case” 604 605 606 607 608 609 **610 Inner Stickler Vote Silver Jan** **611 Weedy vote askthepizzaguy** 612 613 614 615 616 617 618 619 620 621 622 623 624 625 626 627 **628 Diver vote Askthepizzaguy** 629 630 631 632 633 634 635 636 637 638 639 640 641 642 643 644 645 646 gnarly "interestingly enough, at the time of these two votes, this tied me with Septimus. this may be of interest later since right now it’s Silver Jan and Pizza who are numbers one and two in voting. " 647 gnarly “are you voting for Pizza because of the ‘obvious reasons’ phrase he used in voting Septimus? i believe Pizza was just using Septimus’ words against him.” 648 **649 gnarly votes Diver, Normal** “Normal Phase votes me for the same reason MentalGuy votes me. his reasoning was weak. her agreement makes her reasoning even weaker. feels like an opportunistic vote. it also ties me with Septimus, which could be an attempt make two bandwagons.” 650 651 652 653 654 655 656 657 Normal: "How did you get from here to a casual “for obvious reasons” vote on ATPG, Septimus? You’re criticizing his approach to the game, but to what extent do you really believe him to be scum? Your vote is part of a bandwagon that looks capable of getting him lynched; do you really stand behind that vote? If so, why? " **658 Normal unvote gnarlycharlie, vote Septimus** “The comments from Texcat in 600 also need addressing, Septimus.” **659 Stanislaus vote Mental Guy** 660 661 **662 Shadow Unvote Silver Jan** “He’s driving me crazy, to be honest, but despite it all I am leaning Town on him. I don’t think I’ll vote for him toDay. (That said, I do think his case on septimus is really weak).” 663 664 665 666 667 668 Normal: "I’m not even sure what you’re trying to insinuate here. That I’m scumbuddies with Septimus and was so threatened by ATPG’s two votes on him that I engaged in horrible me-too-ing just to tie it up? " 669 670 Normal: “This rationale makes no sense; it would have been a stronger vote if you’d left out Septimus entirely. What possible connection does “attempt to make two bandwagons” have to scumminess?”[/spoiler]Day two continues in part II ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1595 "2011-08-05T12:36:32Z")
**Septimus and votes, Part II** To end of Day 2 [spoiler] 671 672 673 674 675 676 677 678 679 **680 Ed unvote: Normal Phase, vote: septimus** 681 682 683 684 685 MentalGuy "Let’s point out that at the time we tied you for the lynch lead, that meant you had a total of 2 votes, with over 3 days left in the Day. I wasn’t trying to save septimus (although I do find the case against him weak), I was just voting. " 686 MentalGuy: “I am not sure if you mean to imply that Pizza’s vote was justified because of what septimus said, but to clarify, septimus never actually used the “obvious reasons” phrase as a justification. He said it looked like he should have said that since he got heat for his case being overkill” 687 688 689 690 691 692 693 694 695 696 697 Suburban “Septimus never uses “for obvious reasons” as part of his justification for his vote. He dioes explain his reasons for his vote, however; “He’s never made a real case against me, but he wants others to think he did. Maybe he’s “just being anti-Town” but we can’t give that a completely free ride. (Otherwise, Scum could get credibility by acting anti-Town! )”” 698 699 gnarly "actually i didn’t think Septimus was suspicious. i felt that getting players, presumably both town, to be lynch leaders would be beneficial to scum. i didn’t think you were trying to save him. that was too early in the Day and perhaps too obvious tactic for a seasoned player like you. " 700 Mental "Since I had to leave for a while this morning, Suburban has already addressed this, but septimus did not vote “for obvious reasons”. He just said he should have said that since his case was called overkill. It was Pizza that voted “for obvious reasons”. " 701 702 703 704 705 706 707 708 709 Suburban "2.) So you think it’s 30% likely that I’m Scum, which apparently is enough to earn a FOS from you, and this “approaches the level” of suspicion you have for Septimus. So exactly how scummy do you feel he is? 35%? 40%? since you place two irrevocable votes on him quite early in the Day, I rather thought you might be at least better than 50% certain of his guilt. " 710 711 712 Pizza at Suburban "I’d give septimus about a 4/10 for the case he manufactured on me day one, and I’d leave it at that level given his lack of participation in discussion. He’s an excellent lynch in my mind. You, sir, are only digging yourself deeper with your avoidance of my salient points. " 713 714 715 716 717 718 719 720 **721 Jan Vote Special Ed** 722 Suburban unvote choie, vote texcat septimus part- "He didn’t like Askthepizzaguy’s voting on Day 1, or on Day 2. Other than that, hasn’t even attempted to make a case against anyone, other than a smudge on LightFoot in Post 2-525: “Lightfoot’s claim might be a beautiful ploy if she were Scum … I took a look at texcat because it was his post D2-600 that seems to have given the Septimus bandwagon new life. I didn’t find a great deal … Septimus seems to be laying low. He was rather active early on in discussing the voting mechanics, but doesn’t seem to be trying hard to locate Scum.” 723 724 725 726 727 728 Jan "I have looked at the vote count and my immediate reaction was to unvote and vote for Septimus (twice) just so I wouldn’t be lynched. I still want to do that but I couldn’t justify it, so although I will not go quietly I will not place a vote on someone that I haven’t considered before. I might change my mind tomorrow " 729 730 731 **732 Suburban [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14038200&postcount=732](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14038200&postcount=732) “Just out of curiosity, why Septimus necessarily? You could achieve the same result by voting for Askthepizzaguy.”** _seems scummy to me_ 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 \*\*740 Weedy unvote Askthepizzaguy \*\* “Against him: the blythe way he chucks votes around, with little attempt at justification. On Day 1, this was sort of understandable, but today he has two votes on Septimus that he himself is only 40% comfortable with, and which are basically OMGUS votes. Sometimes people don’t make cases because they are pressed for time, or not that involved, but that does not seem to be the case for ATPG. He says he votes to put pressure on people, but I don’t really see how this works, if they are not attached to cases. I feel at a disadvantage here, because this seems to be one of those ‘advanced techniques’ that I know experienced players use but I don’t have the expertise for, so it’s all space biscuits as far as I’m concerned.” 741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 750 751 **752 Jan unvotes, votes special ed (lock)** 753 754 755 756 757 758 759 760 **761 Weedy vote special ed** 762 \*\*763 Hirka T’Bawa has joined the game. He is replacing Koldanar. Welcome, Hirka T’Bawa! \*\* 764 765 766 767 Weedy- "At the time, I didn’t wonder more than passingly why you were interested in that, but when I read your posts to Jan just now, it seems like you already have a vote on septimus, but you are keen to place another, and you aren’t that convinced by any of the cases, but you’re picking the best of the lot. And those two things just added up as “Ed seems to really want to cast two votes. I wonder why.” 768 769 **770 ShadowFacts vote pedescribe** 771 772 \*\*773 Weedy unvote special ed \*\* 774 special ed- “Wait, so I’m suspicious for having 2 votes, but I’m not suspicious now because I’ve had 2 votes for most of the Day? It’s only suspicious that it’s septimus and Silver Jan, not if it’s AskThePizzaGuy ad Normal Phase?” 775 776 777 778 779 780 781 782 **783 TexCat votes special ed** 784 785 786 787 788 789 \*\*790 Red unvote ShadowFacts 791 Weedy vote SilverJan \*\* 792 793 794 795 796 797 798 **799 septimus post** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14046636&postcount=799](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14046636&postcount=799) "I’d like to defend myself from the charges against me, but I don’t understand them. Was there an element of OMGUS in my vote against Pizza ? Probably, I see errors most clearly when they’re directed against me. Some of my posts were misinterpreted. When I said I “liked” choie’s post, I was speaking more of the type of post, rather than any strong Townie smell. Many of you prefer short cryptic posts; I can’t gauge the sincerity of a post I don’t even understand. I’ll leave one vote on Pizza for now, but hope to get a large block of time for study later. " 800 801 802 803 804 805 806 807 808 809 810 811 **812 Shadow votes Normal** mention of septimus here 813 814 815 816 817 818 819 **820 Hirka votes Shadow** **821 Lightfoot votes Diver** 822 823 824 825 **826 Hirka lock votes Shadow** “Today has been unexpectedly busy for me and I’ve basically run out of time. (It’s getting late here now.) I was hoping to review septimus, but I’m not going to manage that now - or go over the new Shadow/Normal cases. So I’m going to leave my vote where it is, which is a bit lame but to move it now would just be going off half-cocked.” 827 828 Pizza “I’d love to see septimus die, even if all it does is allow me to move on to other suspects. For as long as he’s alive and being quiet, I’m not going to let go of him. I’d have to see more of him to reverse my opinion and that’s not happening.” **829 Normal unvote ShadowFacts, lock vote Septimus** **830 Special ed unvote, lock vote septimus** 831 832 833 834 835 836 837 **838 septimus lock votes Silver** Since I know that I’m a Townie, my only course is very clear. Unvote: AskthePizzaGuy Vote: SilverJan Vote: SilverJan 839 840 841 Red Skeezix to septimus “Really? You posted right at 6:59 to say you’re town? Bullshit. Somebody should vig this guy.” **842 Silver Jan is (more than) dead. She was an NPC Mage and one of the Defenders of De’endee. Night has now fallen, and will last until July 23rd at 6pm central time. Scathach’s remains have been found and identified. She was an NPC townsperson and one of the Defenders of De’endee.** [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1596 "2011-08-05T12:45:15Z")
**Septimus and votes, Part III** Continued… [spoiler]843 844 845 846 847 848 849 Pizza “Hey septimus. If you are guilty, do me a favor and kill me tonight.” 850 851 852 853 854 Stanislaus “Well, I kind of feel spared the need to review septimus at this point” 855 856 Normal “I personally am going to assume that Septimus will be dead in the morning.” 857 858 Suburban “Also, you had locked your votes on Septimus quite early in the Day (they were the first and third votes of the Day, in fact), indicating that you were less than supremely interested in hearing the cases on any of the other 16 players in the game. I know, just because you had voted doesn’t mean you can’t discuss your opinion of other players’ possible guilt or innocence, but your words lose weight (in my opinion) when you are unable to ‘put your money where your mouth is’” 859 860 861 862 863 choie “The septimus thing at the end of the day kinda bothered me. I noticed that though there were six votes on the guy, they only came from three people, each voting twice. … OTOH… I just don’t get why septimus is pinging them as evil, especially for the last-minute votes on Silver Jan. Wouldn’t it be normal for a townie to try to save yourself? If the same thing happened to me, feeling unjustly ganged upon, I would probably have voted strategically too. The fact that it was at the literal last minute seems smart, not suspicious. No? Are we supposed to sacrifice ourselves for someone we think may be guilty? (This assumes, of course, septimus genuinely thought Silver Jan was scum. If he genuinely thought her a fellow townie, then I think a self-sacrifice should’ve been in order.)” 864 Normal “I’m fairly confident that Septimus is scum. Voting at the very last second is scummy – anti-town, if you will – because you’ve left no one any room to contest it.” 865 Pizza “I was putting my money on Septimus, because his behavior caused a visceral reaction in me to “kill it”. I wasn’t thinking too hard about strategy at the moment, I’ll admit. I was doing what I often do which is follow my instincts against someone I found to be ungenuine.” 866 867 868 869 choie “Thanks, this is a helpful post. I see your point on septimus’s behavior, and why it wasn’t helpful. I need to take another look at the timing aspect – I thought the tie between septimus and Silver Jan (dang, there really are a lot of “s” usernames in this thread to keep straight!) occured very late in the day, which would’ve left septimus no other time really to state his case/raise a defense/vote for himself.” 870 871 Weedy “I’m a bit disturbed by all the last minute voting, and Septimus’s timing being held against him. I’m pretty sure he said he was in Thailand. I’m not sure what the time zone is there, but I think Day’s End was early in the morning. It was at 9 a.m. for me and I am in Australia, a few hours ahead. I always wake up to a bunch of stuff having happened. What if he just woke up?” 872 873 874 875 876 877 878 **879 septimus** “Sorry if I shocked or offended with my last-minute vote, but it seemed very clear to me that it was correct. Had Silver Jan flipped Scum, I’d have been a hero.” 880 881 Inner Stickler "Big whoop. She flipped town and you still haven’t explained why you thought it was necessary to prevent any discussion or response to your votes. PROTIP: when one person takes it upon themself to decide a lynch, they get a lot of heat if they didn’t have a good reason. Town has to play together; haring off to do your own thing without giving people a chance for input is impolite at best and damaging to town at worst. " 882 Suburban "Why are you waiting? If you happen to wake up dead Tomorrow, then you won’t have a chance to explain anything. If you have some useful information, why not share it now, while you know you have a chance to do so? " 883 Inner "Ah but this way, he can make a town vig question whether it’s better to vig him tonight or let him go another day. " 884 Specialed is dead, but you only found his head. Yes that rhymes. Because you only found his head, you can’t make “head” or tails out of who he was or what his allegiance was to. **885 Hirka votes septimus, shadowfacts** 886 \*\*887 Normal vote: Septimus 888 Inner Stickler vote: Septimus \*\* **889 septimus post** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14057618&postcount=889](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14057618&postcount=889) (BIG POST) 890 891 Suburban “Septimus does have a point regarding the end of the Day. When Normal placed her second vote on him, Silver Jan was still leading the voting 6-5. Fifteen minutes later when Ed changed his vote, no claim was going to make any difference, because all 6 votes on him were “final”.” 892 \*\*893 Stan vote: Septimus \*\* “I’ve got a certain amount of sympathy for septimus’s point that he wasn’t about to argue his way out of locked in votes. It’s true as far as it goes. But he’d spent the whole day in close contention for the lynch - he should have made his position a lot clearer before the very last minute. I know I said power roles should try to argue their way out of votes first, but I didn’t even see him do that very much. It looks like he was always planning to wriggle out at the last minute.” 894 Pizza "Assume for the moment we know each other are innocent. But you also assume that you will be dead shortly. Now, I ask you to give me 4 names. These are the names of people you believe are most likely to be the Lords of Slaughter. Name these names, and give reasons if possible. " 895 896 Normal “2. Answer Pizza’s question about your top four suspects.” - was not answered. 897 898 899 Weedy "I was waiting for a post from Septimus, but now that I’ve seen it, I’m not much the wiser. I have every sympathy for the End of Day issue, because time zone differences suck, but that’s the way it is. Besides, it seems like you were awake then, and deliberately chose to vote at the last minute. I would like to know what is going on with all your hinting at something. I hope you are just scum trying to confuse the issue, and not actually the Doc. " \*\*900 septimus post [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14058193&postcount=900](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14058193&postcount=900) ROLE PM AND FAKE CLAIM \*\* 901 902 \*\*903 septimus post [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14058193&postcount=903](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14058193&postcount=903) I see Weedy’s post. I’m sorry you “hope I’m Scum.” This is about my 6th game so I can’t claim “newbie” anymore, but if that self-preservation vote is anti-Town when I know I’m Town and know SJ is either Scum or Vanilla, I hope someone can explain to me why. And I still think that Ed’s last-halfhour vote, with many players presumably off-line, is the “moral equivalent” of a last-minute vote. \*\* 904 **905 Pizza votes choie** “That’s my analysis of choie. I think it’s clear why septimus was behaving the way he did… he’s either scum or he’s trying to preserve his life. But even that last second save doesn’t yield scum in as many instances as the duality I see in choie.” 906 Weedy “Sorry, I did not mean that personally. Just that it would be less than great to have the Doc and the Cop both outed already. Instead I see you have claimed something else entirely, which I will have to think through, along with ATPG’s case on choie, which is kinda massive.” 907 908 909 Pizza “The proposed case on choie may not be the best possible case; let’s see alternatives. I think septimus is a great default lynch due to the fact that he’s only ever going to die by the lynch and acted scummy. I’d also like to decide conclusively should he live or die now, not be a nagging threat in the endgame.” 910 911 choie “Oh wait, pizza also mentions my alleged perfect information about septimus. But that doesn’t make sense to me at all. If I had PIS about septimus (presumably because I’m scum and somehow knew he’s town w/some power role), why the hell wouldn’t I have kept my mouth shut and let the lynch roll forward?” 912 913 914 Suburban "Regarding Septimus’ claim, I’d call his role ‘Scotsman’ rather than ‘Bulletproof’. I’ll admit I hadn’t considered that as a possibilty when he was hinting at his role. I find his late action less justifiable given his current claim than I did when I thought he was claiming a more ‘active’ Power. " 915 916 917 918 919 920 921 922 Normal “I don’t think it’s likely that both choie and Septimus are mafia given the latter’s snuggling of the former yesterDay. (It’s possible either could be a third party.) I’d like ATPG and SP both to comment on how they feel about that, given they’re currently questioning both players.” **923 Weedy votes choie, pedescribe** “Septimus: Given his claim, his behaviour yesterday makes sense to me. It seems to me that his claim is testable by vig, but there’s a lot of ifs there. Choie: I agree with ATPG that choie is very uneven, and very defensive. Could be newbie nerves. I think her taunting of Silver Jan was a bit odd. She must have been much surer of her case than I usually am. Or it could be scum gloating.” (Interesting post) 924 "Just realised that the vig idea is a very bad one " 925 Inner “This statement just makes me more suspicious. Scotsman roles modconfirm the player. I would expect a bulletproof role to be the same or to at least be alerted if they are attacked.” 926 927 928 929 choie "This probably sounds strange considering I’m the topic of suspicion here, but what the heck, I’m never gonna learn if I don’t ask questions: Given that there are/were 21 of us, which means, what, 4 or 5 scum – why is it unlikely that both me and septimus would be scum? The same argument was made re: my suspicions of Silver Jan and Normal Phase, and for similar reasons: one was defending the other. At some point any two people could be scum, couldn’t they? Do scum always throw each other under the bus? " **930 choie votes Normal Phase** 931 932 933 934 Pizza “The second one, because of her unusual break with the crowd after septimus demonstrated a scummy level of interest in staying alive, by defending septimus. This makes her look good in the eyes of septimus, and should septimus die and flip townie, it makes her look good even further.” 935 936 937 938 939 940 941 942 943 Normal "I have problems with both Septimus and choie currently. More in a bit. " 944 945 Normal ““Let’s keep hunting for real scum” makes my nose twitch, Septimus. Just so you know. … Seriously, Septimus, what’s your point? My vote didn’t swing the result by itself; unless someone already voting for Silver Jan changed their vote after me (which is what actually happened), the odds of you being lynched over her were very slim. Ed, who did do that, was to all appearances town. Silver Jan was town. _Even if I were scum_ there would be no possible machination going on here, and you should be able to recognize that. … Finally – you’re not acting like a TOWN bulletproof. You’re a talkative player, Septimus. Sure it gets you in trouble sometimes, but it’s still your best tool in getting yourself attacked by the scum – be right, and make yourself a tempting target. You’ve been, on the contrary, much quieter than usual. You also hinted quite strongly last night that you expected to be alive in the morning – this is the OPPOSITE of what you should do as a townie with that role. You want to encourage attacks, not dissuade them. But it is what you do if you are a third party and want to keep attackers from testing you.” 946 Pizza :For now I’ll leave my vote on choie and observe septimus and choie’s reactions and everyone’s reactions to choie and septimus. " **947 Normal unvotes septimus** "according to my guesses, as PFKs are rarely a direct early threat, especially with no sign of a traditional serial killer. (Although on the off chance of a _non_ traditional one, may I ask that if the game contains a role whose purpose is to find bombs or booby traps or anything out of the ordinary, that they consider claiming? Thinking of my hybrid mad bomber/delayed serial killer role from last game.) " 948 949 Normal “I’m not going to respond to all of Pizza’s case again you; it’s just too much. But I’ll say that I agree with some of the things he sees as disingenuous in you, and particularly with the argument about Septimus-PIS. He didn’t highlight the sentence I found the most indicative, so let me go find it myself.” 950 951 952 Normal "I’m tempted to ask Septimus how he thought about all of this himself. " 953 954 Stan “Normal, I was nodding along with the bulk of your last post to septimus, right until you got to your conclusion. I think he’s scum.” 955 956 957 958 **959 gnarlycharlie votes septimus, mentalguy** “as for Septimus’s claim, i’m rather wary. Bulletproof is a great hiding place. it will be difficult to counterclaim and would explain why he isn’t NKd. i seem to recall a game i read that discussed this but can’t remember which. i acknowledge that he might be a PFK and we need to find scum but his last minute vote and his claim is just too much to believe.” 960 961 962 963 964 965 966 967 **968 MentalGuy votes septimus, gnarlycharlie** “As the Day started, I was leaning towards the view that Pizza was scum that was doing a really good job playing us. This was based on his defense of Jan (I didn’t vote for Jan, but I had almost changed my mind about her and there is no way I could have went through all her posts like Pizza did and not found more scummy about her), and what I thought was a bussing of septimus (we have seen Pizza likes to play in an unorthodox manner and I have no reason to think he would not do that as scum). But based on what he has done toDay, I have to say, if he is scum, he is the hardest working scum I have ever seen. I find it very unlikely that septimus would not have been targeted by either scum or a vig. The fact that he does not know whether he was targeted makes me suspect he is not Town.” 969 970 971 972 973 974 975 976 **977 septimus post [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14063322&postcount=977](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14063322&postcount=977) BIG POST, uses my own data, points at lurkers** 978 979 980 981 982 983 984 985 986 987 **988 Pizza unvotes choie, votes Stan, Texcat,** FOS Suburban and ShadowFacts “Needs to be scanned, can’t be allowed to survive the game: septimus” 989 990 991 992 993 994 995 Stan “So in sum: Lots of equivocation, lots of protests about how little he knows about scum, lots of condoning of lynching people for being suspicious or noisy. Some defense of septimus which I am quite suspicous of, but will wait for a role-flip before judging.” 996 997 998 999 1000 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 **1007 Normal votes TexCat** 1008 **1009 septimus votes Normal** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14066259&postcount=1009](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14066259&postcount=1009) “I may not be skilled at sniffing Scum, but I feel like I’m getting better at sniffing out bad cases. I didn’t join the Kelly bandwagon, nor did I vote SJ except at the end for self-preservation…” BIG POST 1010 1011 1012 1013 **1014 Suburban votes TexCat** "Normal has some good points about Texcat’s case against Ed. I agree that it doesn’t seem genuine. That combined with the Septimus/choie kerfluffle that he started and then walked away from, lead me to renew my vote. To sum up, … On Day 2, he makes his post about Septimus and choie ‘snuggling’; something which he never addresses again, despite everyone else putting in their 2 cents on the topic. … Day 3, he reminds us that he thought Ed was Scum (in case we thought he voted Ed for some other reason?), especially after Jan flipped Town (to remind us that he always believed in her). He says that it’s unlikely that Septimus and choie are both Scum (which apparently means his suspicions about them ‘snuggling’ were in error?) 1015 1016 1017 MentalGuy "I did not really find the case on septimus compelling until he voted at the last minute, then survived the Night. " **1018 TexCat votes Suburban** "Wow. That’s a lot to do all at the same time, isn’t it? Lay low AND stir things up? And yeah, I don’t take strong positions on things I don’t feel strongly about. But guess what? This post has made me feel strongly that you are a Lord of Slaughter. This post has scum bandwagon vote written all over it. First, the I haven’t been following along closely excuse. This is a scum excuse for a vote. There was no hurry to get a vote down, unless you just wanted to bandwagon, trying to get the momentum to roll my direction. Second, the mischaracterizing and falsifying my positions to make me look some how scummy. Not a good sign. Using my Kelly vote which was the same as yours, as a reason?" @ Suburban 1019 1020 1021 1022 Mental “And saying my defense of septimus is vote worthy if septimus flips scum just seems over the top.” **1023 septimus votes TexCat** Speaking of Night-time killings, I have to wonder about players who worry that my actions showed no fear of a Scum NK. My reputation for Town suspicion against me has the “fringe benefit” that I need worry very little about Scum Killing me unless I’ve claimed an important Power role. This is especially true in this game, where I’ve been a strong Lynch candidate. " 1024 1025 1026 1027 1028 1029 **1030 Pizza unvotes TexCat, votes ShadowFacts** 1031 **1032 septimus post** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14069338&postcount=1032](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14069338&postcount=1032) 1033 1034 1035 Normal “What is it with everybody outright ignoring my arguments against them? ShadowFacts finally got to most of it, but it took him a few posts. I have a long string of “FALSE” comments out there aimed at Septimus, that he is blithely ignoring. And I think that TexCat lied about her reasoning for voting Ed and not Septimus on day two – which she skipped over in favor of making her case on Suburban Plankton, who I believe by this point must fall in the “easy target” category for the scum if not one himself.” **1036 septimus "Pardon me if I express irritation.** I already answered your question honestly. What does it matter if I assess one at 17.3% Scum and the other as 17.5% Scum when there’s an uncertainty of plus-or-minus 10% on these numbers? If and when one becomes a serious Lynch candidate I will try to study the case." 1037 Pizza “If you’re a scumbag and one of them is your partner, it becomes a much more meaningful question, doesn’t it? Do you bluff and agree that the case on your partner is good, or do you lie and state that the case on a townie is good? Or what if they’re both guilty…” 1038 TexCat “This is irritating. “That’s not what I said here.” It is what you said. It’s a quote from you. I guess you meant to say that you were more focused on the timing rather than the reasons for my vote. Since you have the reason entirely wrong. I didn’t invent that; it’s in your quote.” @ Suburban Plankton **1039 septimus post** I’m voting Normal and TexCat, but ATPG is still high on my suspect list. Let’s reiterate that Normal Phase and ATPG are attempting to dominate the discussion. Most of the posts are from them, and they insist that we spend our posts answering their questions. [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1597 "2011-08-05T12:46:39Z")
**Septimus and votes, Part IV** To the TexCat lynch and discovery of Special ed’s body [spoiler]1040 Normal "You’re being too sarcastic, and it’s misplaced. I’ve suspected you plenty in past games Septimus, when you’ve been town, and you’ve never acted liked this. " 1041 1042 TexCat “Septimus, I don’t think your arguments really hold together very well. If you think that Normal and/or Pizza are scum, why would they bus me? For the town cred? Because they are under pressure? Normal’s pressure came from Pizza. I guess you think he’s bussing her too? Pizza was under a lot of pressure the first couple of Days, but seemed to survive without bussing anyone.” 1043 **1044 Weedy unvotes pedescribe, votes TexCat** 1045 1046 **1047 Normal votes choie** “I do think that much of what Pizza has pointed out could be mere personality quirks and thus null tells. I finally get where she could be coming from on me, if she is town (though her presentation nullifies that; see below). And I think that my mis-reading of that one bit of “PIS” regarding Septimus over-influenced my view of the whole case for a while there. But there’s still plenty to be suspicious of.” 1048 1049 1050 Stanislaus "TexCat - I find this case more convincing. Suburban’s analysis of her as coming in to say something that makes waves before dropping back out of sight does seem to fit the pattern of her posts, and is plausible scum behaviour. Ditto her avoidance of the tie-break vote despite having made a case against septimus. I’ll have to think about it some more but she might be edging ahead of Mental Guy in my suspicions. " 1051 1052 1053 1054 1055 Pizza "I can find you scummy yet also question you and be interested in your answers. " 1056 1057 _1058 Shadow “OK, I’ve caught up to the septimus role claim, and based on the claim I will say that his last-minute voting is a null-tell. That is, I can see a Town motivation for it, and a Scum motivation:” 1059 Shadow "OK, I’m up to ATPG’s case on choie (post #905): I admit that based on the sheer volume of words, I read quickly, but I don’t see enough there to vote for choie. Too much of the case is based on “tone,” which is impossible to rebut because tone is in the eye of the reader. (His original case on septimus was similarly “tone-based,” if significantly shorter ). choie’s “I’m new” repetitions certainly have gotten old, but I’m not seeing the play-acting and insincerity that ATPG is. No vote right now on choie for me. " 1060 Shadow "Someone else said something similar to this earlier, but I can’t remember who and I don’t want to go back and track it down. Anyway, this sentiment makes no sense to me. septimus came within moments of being lynched yesterDay, and only avoided the noose with a last-minute vote switch that was sure to be controversial. It makes perfect sense to me that Scum would skip him and assume that there was a high probability of him being lynched today. Why bother killing him when he’s garnering tons of suspicion and likely to die the following Day? "_ (scummy to me) 1061 1062 1063 1064 **1065 Red Skeezix votes septimus, ShadowFacts** "Your claim seems tailored to your actions of late yesterday. It’s pretty convenient. Also, it seems trivial for a scum player to fake, if they don’t think there is a vig in the game (there’s no guarantee that there is). Also the power is a strange one. I feel like every so often someone claims to be either a Town aligned Bomb or a Bulletproof townie. It’s just that in ~ 40 games played, I’ve seen 1 bomb and 2 bulletproof town players. It’s just not that common. So to put it simply, I find the vote manipulation to be a very scummy action, and the claim hard to swallow. " 1066 **1067 Pizza unvotes Stan, votes Suburban Plankton** 1068 1069 1070 1071 1072 1073 1074 1075 1076 1077 1078 1079 **1080 Normal unvotes choie, votes ShadowFacts** 1081 1082 1083 1084 Stanislaus “I’m voting for septimus, and he’s lynch leader, so I’m happy about that.” 1085 1086 Stanislaus @ Pizza “I’d love it if you gave SP/Shadow the benefit of the doubt and helped me slaughter a Lord of some kind. By which I mean septimus” 1087 1088 1089 **1090 Shadow votes Normal Phase** “septimus continues to read Town to me. I find his actions plausible for his claimed role, and I found myself agreeing with just about everything he said today. I will not be voting for septimus. (ATPG, feel free to accuse me of snuggling or snurbing or whatever )” **1091 Hirka unvotes septimus, votes ShadowFacts** “I’ve been thinking about my vote for septimus, if he is being truthful with his claim, then his actions last night make a sort of sense. Since his actions are the main reason I voted for him, I think I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt (for now).” 1092 1093 1094 1095 1096 1097 **1098 Diver votes septimus** "I’m concerned about septimus’s role claim. There is no mention of gaining experience points or what the rewards for leveling up might be. " 1099 1100 1101 1102 1103 1104 1105 1106 1107 1108 **1109 Lightfoot votes TexCat** 1110 1111 1112 1113 1114 1115 1116 1117 1118 1119 1120 **1121 septimus unvotes Normal, votes Askthepizzaguy** “Shadow could be a very important Town power, especially for the vote-doubling in the endgame. I think Scum will try to NK him and you want to Lynch him now instead?? I tend to believe his claim, but if we’re suspicious, just encourage LightFoot to Investigate.” \ 1122 1123 1124 Pizza "You don’t expect the Lords of Slaughter to all claim vanilla NPC, right? " 1125 Shadow “ATPG, your response to my claim has been interesting, that’s for sure. First time all game I’ve seen you flailing around.” 1126 Pizza “Then you haven’t been paying attention. This is a continuation of my actions all round long, where i’ve proposed alternatives to septimus.” 1127 1128 1129 Shadow “You can keep your rolleyes, my good man. I am obviously not saying septimus is your scum partner, since I very clearly said multiple times that I do not find septimus suspicious and want to avoid his lynch. I don’t know how much clearer about that I could be when I claimed just a few posts above. Sensitive, much?” 1130 1131 1132 1133 Suburban "You seem to have forgotten, or have chosen to ignore, the fact that ShadowFacts is claiming more than one Ability. In addition to the Vote-charging, he also claims to have a Roleblocking ability. Such an ability is not without it’s potential pitfalls, but it can be a useful tool in the Town’s hands … Septimus said that you are delaying his lynch because his flip will discredit you. That would be the reason you are trying to get ShadowFacts dead instead of him. … I don’t actually have an argument with your statement here, though I do still wonder how you went from spending 2 Days trying to lynch Septimus to now considering him confirmed Town. " 1134 Pizza “Yeah, that’s what you’ve said multiple times. I think you’re a Lord of Slaughter, and therefore, you’re being nice to septimus and advocating a third way, because it looks nice. I’m sensitive to bull droppings, and when you’re implying things, it implies many things which I know to be bull poop. You’ll have to be more specific otherwise.” **1135 Suburban "You’re assuming that there is no other Roleblocker in the game. I don’t know that we should make that assumption. "** 1136 1137 1138 1139 1140 1141 Suburban "First of all, that doesn’t answer my question of why you did a 180 on Septimus. But I remember now: “you don’t know” Second, what efforts have you made lately to save Septimus? You’ve argued that we should lynch ShadowFacts instead, but you haven’t moved your second vote to him…if you are so certain he is Scum, why don’t you make that effort? I know, that would only create a tie, and Septimus would still be on the block, but at that point one vote from any of the numerous people with one available would decide things. By my count there are still 10 votes available to be cast Today. Perhaps someone would be more likely to follow your lead and place one of them on ShadowFacts if you were to actually lead them. " 1142 1143 1144 1145 1146 1147 1148 Suburban "Did LightFoot suddenly get confirmed Town when I wasn’t looking? I’m not accusing her of being Scum, but I’m wondering why everyone seems to be assuming we can trust her votes enough to double them?" 1149 **1150 Suburban "If that’s the reason, then he should use the ability on a player whose vote in on someone not in lynch contention. For example, MentalGuy, who currently has the one and only vote on gnarlycharlie. That was the ‘extra’ vote does not figure in to Today’s lynch."** 1151 1152 1153 1154 1155 1156 1157 1158 1159 1160 1161 1162 1163 1164 1165 1166 **1167 Suburban Plankton votes texcat** "I think Septimus is Town, and I’m inclined to believe Shadowfacts at this point. " 1168 1169 1170 1171 1172 1173 1174 Suburban "Which would make Texcat our lynchee, as things stand now. " **1175 Pizza unvotes Suburban, votes ShadowFacts** 1176 1177 **1178 septimus unvotes Pizza, votes TexCat** 1179 1180 1181 1182 1183 1184 1185 1186 1187 1188 1189 1190 1191 **1192 TexCat unvotes SP, locks on ShadowFacts** 1193 1194 **1195 ShadowFacts unvotes Normal, locks on TexCat** 1196 1197 1198 1199 1200 1201 1202 1203 1204 **1205 Weedy unvotes choie, votes TexCat** 1206 1207 1208 1209 **1210 Inner unvotes septimus, locks on TexCat** 1211 1212 1213 (Fake color) 1214 1215 1216 1217 1218 1219 **1220 Special Ed’s body has been recovered and identified. He was a Mystic and one of the Defenders of De’endee. He was a master of the arcane arts and could perform a variety of spells and incantations. TexCat, an NPC monk and one of the Defenders of De’endee, has been killed. Night has now fallen, and will last until July 30th at 6 pm central time.** [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1598 "2011-08-05T12:50:29Z")
**Septimus and votes, Part V** [SPOILER]1221 1222 1223 1224 1225 1226 1227 1228 1229 1230 1231 1232 1233 1234 1235 1236 1237 1238 1239 1240 1241 1242 1243 1244 1245 1246 1247 1248 1249 1250 1251 1252 1253 1254 \*\*1255 Day has arrived, and will last until Thursday, August 4th at 6 pm central time. \*\* 1256 1257 **1258 Shadow votes Red Skeezix** 1259 **1260 Hirka votes Red Skeezix** **1261 Red Skeezix claim and reveal** 1262 1263 1264 Hirka “You refused to believe septimus’s claim that he was bulletproof, yet you say you targeted him. I would think that when you failed on your killing him, especially after you posted saying… you of all people would have believed his claim. Yet, you voted for him, and kept your vote on him all day. Your actions do not back the claim you made. I am getting more convinced that you are most likely scum, and ShadowFacts is telling the truth.” **1265 Pizza votes ShadowFacts** 1266 1267 1268 1269 1270 1271 1272 1273 1274 1275 **1276 septimus votes Red, Pizza** “It may be conceivable that both Shadow and Red’s claims are true (or even that both are false?), but in my judgment the “percentage guess” is that Red is lying: Others have pointed out flaws in his claim; and his posting to date has been marked by lurking and AFAICT, little in the way of pro-Town reasoning.” 1277 1278 1279 **1280 Diver votes Red, Pizza** 1281 **1282 Stanislaus votes Red** 1283 1284 1285 1286 1287 1288 **1289 Pizza votes Diver** 1290 **1291 Normal votes Shadow** \*\*1292 Normal votes Diver \*\* **1293 septimus** Are you suggesting both Red and Shadow are Scum? And Pizza seems to make the same suggestion. I’d like to hear your comments on Red’s #601, which Shadow considers scummy. 1294 **1295 Red votes septimus, ShadowFacts** “To breadcrumb my action. So I had something to point back to later on, when septimus was dead and in the gutter. I chose not to do that with ShadowFacts, since septimus was protected and I thought I might have been tilting my hand.” 1296 1297 Mental “I also find it unlikely that Red and septimus are on the same team. The assassin role seems to be designed to level up so that it can take out the bulletproof player, but why would that be the case if they were on the same team? And does not a bulletproof scum sound a bit overpowered?” 1298 1299 1300 1301 1302 1303 Pizza “However, if you flip town, I’ll go back to my earlier suspicion on septimus.” 1304 1305 1306 1307 1308 Normal “As for Red’s credibility in isolation (and if Shadowfacts is town) – his statements about Septimus over the course of night two/day three are suggestive to me of Red’s being a vig. I find it very easy to envision how he could have made such statements, with that role. But it’s not exactly a difficult argument for a scum, either. For the most part Red just hasn’t given enough to go on for any degree of certainty on him.” 1309 1310 **1311 Weedy votes Skeezix** 1312 1313 1314 1315 1316 1317 \*\*septimus \*\*"I’m far from convinced that Normal and Pizza are correct, but thinking through the possibility of Shadow being Scum, I now realize that Shadow’s power is much more powerful than it seems. 1. His quadruple-voting power will grow and grow in importance as numbers dwindle. 2. He can influence the Lynch on Days when he doesn’t even use the Power, by just threatening to use it. He’s already threatened that toDay, and it was implicit yesterDay as well. 3. It may soon be too late to Lynch Shadow just because of the vote numbers. In that case Town’s victory will depend on our Vigilante. Yet Shadow is trying to get us to Lynch our claimed Vig." 1318 1319 **1320 Suburban votes Skeezix** 1321 1322 1323 1324 1325 1326 Pizza “The assassin role, which by the way, septimus claims his role says is in the game,” 1327 1328 1329 1330 1331 1332 Pizza “Of course, if Red is townie, we could sure use that assassination power. We could even have him attack septimus again to prove that septimus is the power he says he is, while preventing Red Skeezix from hurting any townies. If he’s a scumbag, he still has to not murder anyone, so all we do is get a free lynch, no murder, and then another free lynch; if he doesn’t do as he’s told, we lynch him tomorrow.” 1333 1334 1335 1336 1337 1338 1339 1340 1341 1342 1343 1344 1345 1346 1347 1348 1349 1350 1351 1352 1353 1354 1355 1356 1357 1358 1359 1360 1361 1362 1363 1364 1365 1366 1367 1368 1369 1370 1371 1372 1373 1374 1375 1376 1377 1378 1379 1380 1381 1382 1383 1384 **1385 septimus post** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14090856&postcount=1385](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14090856&postcount=1385) My musings for what they’re worth 1386 1387 1388 1389 1390 1391 1392 **1393 Suburban Plankton votes Pizza** 1394 1395 1396 1397 1398 1399 **1400 Suburban Plankton unvotes Red Skeezix (???)** 1401 1402 1403 **1404 gnarliecharlie votes ShadowFacts** 1405 **1406 choie votes Lightfoot** 1407 1408 1409 1410 1411 **1412 Pizza unvotes Diver, votes Suburban Plankton** 1413 1414 1415 **1416 ShadowFacts locks Red Skeezix** 1417 1418 1419 1420 1421 1422 1423 1424 1425 1426 1427 1428 **1429 Pizza unvotes ShadowFacts, votes Septimus** “So you know what? Let’s find out. unvote: ShadowFacts vote: Septimus” 1430 **1431 septimus post** [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14094971&postcount=1431](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14094971&postcount=1431) 1432 1433 1434 1435 1436 1437 **1438 Stanislaus votes septimus** 1439 1440 1441 1442 1443 **1444 Pizza unvotes Suburban Plankton, locks on septimus** “I’m pulling out my entire sweaty wad of cash and planking it all down on Suburban Septiplanktimus. I raise you infinity dollars.” 1445 1446 **1447 Normal unvotes diver, votes septimus, unvotes ShadowFacts, votes MentalGuy** 1448 1449 1450 1451 1452 1453 1454 1455 1456 1457 1458 1459 1460 1461 1462 1463 1464 1465 1466 1467 **1468 Mental Guy votes septimus** 1469 **1470 Inner Stickler LOCKS septimus** 1471 1472 1473 1474 1475 1476 1477 1478 1479 **1480 Red Skeezix unvotes ShadowFacts, locks septimus** 1481 **1482 Stanislaus unvotes Red, locks septimus** 1483 1484 1485 **1486 Weedy unvotes Skeezix, locks septimus** 1487 1488 **1489 septimus unvotes Pizza, votes red skeezix** I do think you Townies are being led astray. As usual you lock in your votes rather than allowing me to defend. Know that I’ll be laughing at you from the grave if no one comes to my rescue. **1490 Suburban Plankton unvotes Pizza, votes septimus** 1491 1492 1493 1494 1495 1496 1497 1498 1499 1500 1501 1502 1503 1504 1505 1506 1507 1508 1509 1510 1511 1512 1513 1514 1515 1516 **1517 Hirka votes red skeezix** 1518 1519 **1520 Diver unvotes Pizza, locks in on Red Skeezix** 1521 1522 **1523 Lightfoot votes Diver** 1524 1525 1526 1527 \*\*1528 Septimus, a Beguiler and one of the Lords of Slaughter, is dead. Night has now fallen, and will last until 6 pm central time on August 6th. \*\* [/SPOILER] And that’s that. Hope it makes sense and is useful in illuminating the interactions of septimus and the other players. It’s the whole game as it pertains to septimus, pretty much. Anyway… ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1599 "2011-08-05T13:01:24Z")
If we could be sure to GET an investigation on Pedescribe, then I think that would be by far the best course of action. Confirmed town (or nearly confirmed, possibility of godfather, but see below) who is inactive? A delicious dilemma for the scum team. The last two times that Pedescribe has pulled this mid-day-two disappearing act, he has been town (and a power role at that: the Mason that someone brought up; Tracker last time – neither time did he bother to actually use the power he had). While that says nothing specific about his alignment this time, it does offer a precedent. He could be scum, but there’s no reason, meta or otherwise, to think it’s the case. His actions in the game have added up to something close to null tell for me (leaning scum on the day one vote, town on the day two double-vote). All in all I would not be sad to see him gone. I think this game could well go to LYLO despite Septimus’ death today, and having him around at that point … if there’s any way that wouldn’t be a disaster, please do let me know. So Pedescribe is on my vig list AND my investigation list. Also on the vig list: Suburban Plankton. I’m confident in the context of Septimus’ flip that that the off and on scum tells from SP were in fact just that. Also on the vig list: ShadowFacts. The scum tells haven’t gone away, Red looks likelier than before to be town, and there’s nothing exculpatory in terms of interactions with Septimus that I can remember. The downside to this: if there’s any chance Red might attack Shadow, Shadow will block him. I’m tempted to ask both of them to commit to staying away from each other. Only Shadow’s extra votes give me pause there; I’m still very concerned about them. Block list: Mental Guy. Yes I know Pizza has him in some sort of potential-doc pool. I have enough scum tells on him, _particularly_ in the context of his having bussed Septimus on day two, that I am not so worried about that. choie. It is possible that her votes over the last couple of days stem entirely from some sort of “if I don’t understand the town motive, it must be scum” issues. But I question her exclusive focus on such suspicion, given her extensive reading, and given how incredibly convenient her refusal to take a stand on recent lynch leaders is in the context of Septimus being scum. Suburban Plankton. Because having him on the kill list but not the block list only makes it safe for him to perform the scum kill unopposed (or block LF unopposed, if that’s how things fall.) Investigations. Pedescribe or random. I don’t think it’s very likely an investigation will go through, but we’ll see. Regular doc. Lightfoot. Essentially our only near-certain town until she names a second player; depending who that is, perhaps our only one at all in the morning. Not to be sneezed at regardless if she’s providing results or not. Paranoid doc. Lightfoot (65%), **Skeezix** (25%), Pizza (10%). Sorry Pizza, but you’re vanilla. Separately I have a question for Astral that migth bear on the issue of how many scum there are: **Does power role leveling up work on the basis of one level per lynched scum, or one level per vote placed on lynched scum?** If it’s the former (and I really hope it’s not), then there are definitely five scum, not four. Because with only four scum, it would be impossible to get to level 5 at all, before the game ends. Finally, Septimus. I have a suspicion that he was a role somewhat like Zeriel’s in the last game here (which Astral was in). Zeriel’s role was the trickster god Anansi/Mr. Nancy. He was a quasi-godfather. It wasn’t that an investigation on him would return a false result, he was just unable to be investigated at all. (Actually all powers save killing ones would fail to work on him.) Combine Astral’s presence in that game, with the similarity of role types (“Beguiler”), with most of the color in Red’s PM about Septimus (evasive, couldn’t find him to kill him), with Septimus’ comment about only a level 5 assassin … I could be wrong but I think that’s what he was. If I’m right, the following consequences: – we didn’t get the scum roleblocker, if there is one – we probably don’t have to worry about a traditional godfather – we probably don’t have to worry about a scum doc, “he was protected” or no “he was protected” ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2011, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1600 "2011-08-05T13:05:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Paranoid doc. Lightfoot (65%), **Skeezix** (25%), Pizza (10%). Sorry Pizza, but you’re vanilla. I am? Surely you don’t think I’d just be \*honest \*about that sort of thing now Normal. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=79) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=81)