# De'endee Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 6, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052 "2011-07-06T16:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 98
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1941 "2011-08-10T12:08:54Z")
You know me only too well. Can you daykill me and make the suffering stop? ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1942 "2011-08-10T12:11:13Z")
I can whine about something not related to this game on MSN, if you come online. At least it might distract you from your troubles. For what it’s worth I agree 100% with your suggestions on the remaining claims. Need a player list with claims filled in, though. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1943 "2011-08-10T12:12:39Z")
I’ve been busy with work and this game, I haven’t been able to finish analyzing your chess games and I work the opening shift today (for 3 hours, wth???) then I do the closing shift tonight, and, once again, I haven’t slept. But sure. Come talk to me. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1944 "2011-08-10T12:18:12Z")
Okay Normal Phase, your task is to play Stickler’s advocate. You MUST talk me down from this position, as best you can, because I trust you’re townie and I trust your reasoning and I trust your judgment. Is Inner Stickler caught as lying, using arcane spells, yes or no. Be as specific as you can, and please examine all of my above dozen or so posts very carefully. If you can come up with plausible reasoning, I’ll stick with ShadowFacts. If not, I lock on Stickler. Defense Attorney Normal Phase, go. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1945 "2011-08-10T12:22:33Z")
Ack. Do I gotta? If it weren’t for the so-far lack of counterclaim I might be voting for him myself, town read or no town read. The lack of result PMs bugs me, the interactions with SP’s claim bug me (I focused on SP/Shadowfacts yesterday in terms of contradictions, but Inner is also wound up in that), the lack of distinction in Lightfoot’s three block PMs bugs me (even if it shouldn’t), and his votes are what they are. But I’ll try. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1946 "2011-08-10T12:30:32Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Ack. Do I gotta? If it weren’t for the so-far lack of counterclaim I might be voting for him myself, town read or no town read. The lack of result PMs bugs me, the interactions with SP’s claim bug me (I focused on SP/Shadowfacts yesterday in terms of contradictions, but Inner is also wound up in that), the lack of distinction in Lightfoot’s three block PMs bugs me (even if it shouldn’t), and his votes are what they are. But I’ll try. Post 1917 is where I start to try to piece together what the scum team looks like. Feel free to read it, or skip it. There is where I get the idea that, like the Paladin, the Cleric is a cover for a similar, evil role. A sorcerer or Wizard. Post 1932 I have a visceral reaction from Inner Stickler’s scummy prediction that he will continue to live as “lynch bait”. I just summarized it so you can skip it. Post 1934 I’ve finally had all I can stands, and I rip apart the entire Cleric/Tracker claim bit by bit, and include the case I had on Stickler beforehand which caused the initial suspicion. **MUST READ** Pay attention to the part about divine and arcane spells, and especially read the closing part of that post “the bottom line”. Post 1936 and 1938 basically put the nail in the coffin on the case that he was absolutely using arcane magic, which is not what clerics use. Easy enough to digest in full. \*\*MUST READ \*\* At one point you completely disagreed with me that Stickler had done anything scummy, and you insisted that I was wrong that he was breadcrumbing being a paranoid doctor. If you have no defense for Stickler, and you’re willing to vote for Stickler, I’ll take that as a sign that I’m not just impressed by my own reasoning and I’m biased into thinking I’m right. **Inner Stickler’s fate is in your hands, Renata. Tell me he’s innocent, and so he shall be.** ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1947 "2011-08-10T13:11:53Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > My impression of the game, at this point, is that the scum team will have the following setup: > > 1. Godfather/beguiler, disguised as a \*\*Paladin \*\*(Paladin sounds nice and townie). Issue: Paladin/bulletproof doesn’t make much sense. It’s obviously a murdering role, and it may gain additional powers with levels. > > 2. Roleblocker/sorcerer, possibly disguised as a \*\*Cleric \*\*or a **Mage**. (Cleric sounds nice and townie). Issue: Clerics wouldn’t cause headaches from using white magic as protection. This is the main reason why I don’t \*completely \*buy Inner’s claim of paranoid/nonparanoid doctor/cleric. Time will tell on that one. If Inner is innocent, I still feel that there’s a magic-based roleblocker on the scum team. Further, this role may be able to kill instead of blocking, or perform more advanced spells as they gain levels. In other words, it won’t always just be a roleblocker. This part taken in isolation: SP’s description of Inner’s power use, plus Inner’s role claim, in no way match what Lightfoot describes, and I trust Lightfoot. I agree with your ultimate conclusion here: – if Inner is town, then there is a scum roleblocker who has also been blocking Lightfoot, and Inner’s protection/block is invisible to LF’s PMs. – if Inner is scum, he is the scum roleblocker. [Note that even if Inner is a scum paranoid doc (or began as such, maybe with option upon leveling up to separate those two powers and use either/or), then he would have to have been sitting on LF each night since night two – it’s not the explanation for Skeezix’s failure with Septimus.] (As an aside, almost always around here, scum teams can choose freely who does the kill on a given night; however, that usually means they can’t use another power at the same time. I could see that as being a Level 5 bonus for scum, though.) > [@](#): > > 1. Roletaker/soul-stealer, possibly disguised as a **Rogue**. (ShadowFacts, if scum) The idea is that this person on the scum team probably does the murders, trying to hit a pro-town role, and then steals their powers. The murdered roles don’t get revealed immediately, but there is some pro-town role out there which is vital to our efforts which uncovers the fallen roles. If Shadow is townie, then obviously, this one is right out. > > 2. Barbarian/Fighter, some\*\* non-magic\*\* Lord of Slaughter, possibly in a prestige class. The idea here is that they start off with basic murdering ability, and as they level up, they can then perform additional tasks, like, I dunno, beating Red Skeezix over the head with a hammer until he goes unconscious. In other words, this one can murder, and then gain the ability to roleblock. This would explain the multiple roleblocks, especially if ShadowFacts turns up scum. Well, goodness, look what MentalGuy claimed. 👼😉 (NPC “fighter”, if you didn’t notice.) > [@](#): > > 1. It’s possible they have other powers like the tracker, but I’m convinced the town coroner is a role and I sincerely doubt that one is mafia. I’m not so sure about this one, since we do get the roles on a fairly short delay. And by color, that is based on us literally putting the bodies back together each evening. I don’t see how a coroner would fit. But I would buy some sort of action-delaying role at this point, town or scum I don’t know. And I think it’s overwhelmingly likely the scum have some form of investigative role, to cope with all the powered-up townies. How that all fits together I dont’ know. > [@](#): > > Any of these roles probably have a PC-based cover role, but they also have the ability to forge NPC cover roles at this point, so you can expect the Lords of Slaughter to be hiding as PCs (most likely) or NPCs. > > I expect Lightfoot’s role is genuine, I also expect that Red Skeezix’ role is genuine, special ed’s role was obviously genuine, and any town coroner role is genuine. If ShadowFacts pops townie, that means his backup role was genuine. > > That means, once again, my suspicions turn to the Cleric. > > We’ve only had one successful scum lynch, and that one was a “bulletproof” role. > > You cannot tell me that the townies have ALL of the following roles: > > 1. Detective (Lightfoot) > 2. Tracker (Suburban Plankton) > 3. Jack of some trades (Special ed) > 4. Universal Backup role (ShadowFacts) > 5. Vigilante (Red Skeezix) > 6. Paranoid Doctor (Inner Stickler) > 7. Coroner (???) Actually I would buy that on numbers alone, against godfather/roleblocker/investigative role/some other power. Probably not against a three powers-and-a-goon scum team. We know the scums have these roles: > [@](#): > > 1. Beguiler/Godfather (septimus) > 2. Roleblocker (???) If they were blocking Lightoot, this one is a magic-based roleblocker. If they were blocking Red Skeezix, this one is a physical attack-based roleblocker. The magic roleblocker has been able to block since level 1. Apropos of nothing related to IS, where _did_ that head-bonker come from, if not out of Red Skeezix’ hind end? As much as I want him alive one more day, that really bugs me. > [@](#): > > 1. Someone who can murder while septimus is dead and someone is busy roleblocking Lightfoot or Skeezix. This one is possibly the same as number 4. > 2. ShadowFacts (Rogue) Red Skeezix (Warblade), or, another roleblocker. Again, one of them is magic, one of them is physical attack based. My guess is they gain the second roleblock power at level 3. My guess is they can murder until they gain such power. We’ve only had two scum kills, though. No one could have leveled up based on that alone. (Unless performing a kill gives a whole point. But then they’d be able to bash heads earlier than last night. Maybe something like this: – goon kills nights one and two. Levels up then or the next night by other means. Gains head-bash roleblock ability thereby. – last night someone else performs the kill (Shadowfacts?, while faking a Pizza-block?), goon bashes Red Skeezix. _shrug_ It’s possible. It does imply that Red, even if town, isn’t producing any kills tonight unless we first lynch a scum today (might not matter which one, if there are only four total). > [@](#): > > They may also have: > > 1. Someone with a useful information gathering role. (Lightfoot, Suburban Plankton, for example) > So, for balance, the scum team is now claiming NPC or not claiming to hide from the townies, or some additional roles on that list of known townie roles are scumbags. > > In order of likelihood, to me: > > 1. ShadowFacts > 2. Inner Stickler > 3. Suburban Plankton (If Inner is guilty) Devil’s advocate: consider that besides SP confirming Inner, he also contradicted him. Inner has claimed to have blocked Ed on night one. SP claimed, in effect, to have been blocked _by_ Ed on night one (after Inner’s claim). I’m still trying to work my way through the possibilities here. On current information: 1. Inner is scum, SP is scum, they tried to confirm each other and screwed up. 2. Inner is scum doc, NOT a roleblocker at all, or at least not to start. (Yes I know that contradicts what I said at the top. Halp! He protected some scumbag last night, which is what SP saw: SP’s claim caught him in a lie about his night one activity. Someone else is the full-time scum roleblocker. 3. Inner is telling the truth, SP is scum who missed the implications of his claim for his own credibility (the claims came close enough together this might be plausible), or town whose story about a result delay will somehow make sense when it all comes out in the wash. > [@](#): > > 1. Red Skeezix > 2. Lightfoot > > Special ed was townie, and the coroner is obviously townie to me, if such role exists. > > Otherwise the scums are hiding now as NPCs. They now no longer have the ability to claim a PC role to avoid a lynch. > > **As such, the game plan should be to scan, track, etc, all the NPC roles one-by-one.** > > If Shadow pops up scum, look for the brute force roleblocker among the claimed NPC townies and “fighters”. Can we just lynch Mental Guy now? **vote: Mental Guy** I’m not even sure if I’m serious. Next post. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1948 "2011-08-10T13:18:26Z")
Sorry, will continue on IS in a moment, distracted by shiny object. > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > These are either not claimed or have claimed NPC, according to my notes. > > Normal Phase > Stanislaus > Hirka T’Bawa > gnarlycharlie > USCDiver > MentalGuy > pedescribe > Weedy > choie > > Of these, I’m less concerned about Normal Phase and Stanislaus. > I’d also skip Hirka T’Bawa, gnarlycharlie, and possibly Diver. > > I would begin scanning/tracking: > > 1. choie > 2. pedescribe > 3. Mental Guy > 4. Weedy > > To find your NPC or non-claimed scum. I needed this list, and having seen it, largely agree. I’d put choie and Mental Guy as top priorities, Weedy and Diver next, and pedescribe as a potentially useful side option. (Doubt he’s scum, unless Astral is allowing teammates to proxy orders – just way to much going on on the anti-town front for that to be likely. (And pedescribe does not send his own orders when he disappears like this, based on history.) But as mentioned yesterday, having it confirmed could be very useful.) ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1949 "2011-08-10T13:19:13Z")
If ShadowFacts or Stickler pops up scum, we can have Red Skeezix assassinate Mental Guy. However, I’m not sure we wouldn’t have more luck just \*assassinating \*ShadowFacts and \*lynching \*Mental Guy. _Mind you_ I haven’t done any \*thinking \*about **Mental Guy.** 😃 Ouch that was horrible. Anyway yes, next post. Give me what I need. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1950 "2011-08-10T13:20:55Z")
Mental Guy, who do you think is scum and why? ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1951 "2011-08-10T13:22:53Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Mental Guy, who do you think is scum and why? Ah-bah-bah-bah-bah-bah. Focus, focus, focus. Pertinent question, but don’t be distracted by the shiny objects. I need you to tell me Inner Stickler didn’t just get caught using entirely the wrong class of magic power. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1952 "2011-08-10T13:35:14Z")
Inner Stickler’s “I might live a while” conversation. > [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > after all the role and action claims it appears we still have to choose between **Red** and **Shadow**. it appears that the chances of them both being town are slim. i don’t subscribe to an totally inexperienced scum team. that would point to **choie** , **Weedy** and **Hirka**. i don’t think all would be scum especially **Hirka**. > > furthermore, if **Inner Stickler** is really the doc, i believe **Lightfoot** will be dead soon. gnarly says LF won’t live long. Implication is that Inner will die tonight if telling the truth. > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Probably not until whoever roleblocked her last night dies. If scum can block lightfoot, they don’t need to kill her and probably don’t want her dead. If she is alive and blocked, it will be easier to sell people on lynching me. So my prediction is that if we don’t lynch the scum RB Today, Tomorrow will be a Lynch Stickler day and then Lightfoot will kick it once town lynches the scum RB. At least, that’s the way I’d do it. Never waste a NK on someone you can get town to lynch. Especially if you can prevent them from getting useful results in the bargain as well. Ouch. Trying to devil’s advocate this and it is really difficult. About the best I can do is that if Inner is assuming that Red Skeezix is telling the truth about being roleblocked, then his logic that the scum might consider waiting until _after_ their “main” roleblocker is dead to attack Inner Stickler would make some sense – because they’d still have the one who bashed Red over the head around as emergency backup to keep LF under wraps until IS is out of the way. What is IS’s position on Red Skeezix? Never waste a NK on lynchbait has more than a grain of truth to it. > [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > scum can: > > 1. NK you toNight and block **Lightfoot** then NK her next. > 2. block you and NK **Lightfoot** toNight. you can then be lynched on the next day. > > either way, her and maybe your Days are numbered. Same thing repeated. > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > My point is that as long as they have a roleblocker, they don’t need to NK lightfoot and as long as they don’t need to NK lightfoot, they don’t need to NK me. And, as a bonus, if they can get town to lynch me before the RB is killed then they save a NK. Same thing. Makes sense in a strictly logical way if IS trusts Red that the scum have a second roleblocker. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1953 "2011-08-10T13:36:47Z")
Trying, but I’m not a De-endee afficionado – what I know is entirely second-hand or from Order of the Stick. Anyway I think that post is next. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1954 "2011-08-10T13:41:53Z")
I’ve played the game all of two times in my life, for roughly 30 minutes. I still wasn’t aware of the cleric and wizard distinction until I noted the word “arcane” and did a little research. I remembered that arcane was a type of magic, so I was simply trying to verify it was the correct type. Well, \*\*Wikipedia \*\*bashed me over the head and left a big welt, and now I’m sweaty and tired, and there’s no blood on my knives. I want to kill things. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1955 "2011-08-10T14:15:40Z")
> [@MentalGuy](#): > > I do think for toDay we need to lynch either Shadow or Red. I am going to vote for Shadow because I have just gotten a scummier feel from him and also I do not want to keep him around with extra votes (I assume he was telling the truth about that). > [@gnarlycharlie](#): > > after all the role and action claims it appears we still have to choose between **Red** and **Shadow**. it appears that the chances of them both being town are slim. There’s a lot swirling around, and **Pizza** has helpfully dumped another overnight _War & Peace_ on us 😉 but I really think with one Day left it would be good to focus back on me and **Red** for lynch candidates, as the above comments say. After all the claims, there is _high informational value_ from either one of us dying. So, please, everyone: take a look at the claims, the night actions, and vote for me or **Red**. Look at the night action analyses that **SP** , **Stanislaus** , and I did. Consider who is playing and trying to help, and who is lying low, posting nothing, and hoping to skate by for another Day. I haven’t seen a vote count, but unfortunately it looks like right now I’m going to be the one. This sucks, and is the wrong play, but I’m OK with it \*as long as you don’t let **Pizza** convince you not to lynch **Red** the following Day. \* He’s convinced himself that **Red** is absolutely, positively the Vig, but he’s wrong, and you’ll know that when I flip. Assuming I am the lynch, I will post a few final comments on who I think is Scum before I go. But in the meantime, I will continue to push for \*\*Red’s \*\*lynch toDay. To me, he is the obvious choice by a country mile. I am going to lock in my votes for him and power myself up in the hopes that Town makes the right decision. 😃 **Vote Red Skeezix** ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1956 "2011-08-10T14:18:12Z")
You might just want to read some of that War and Peace stuff I posted, ShadowFacts, because I have what I think is 100% proof that Inner Stickler is guilty. But go ahead and “lock” your votes; you’ve got more. Don’t tell me you’re going to bus \*\*\*yourself \*\*\*to save Inner Stickler? ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1957 "2011-08-10T14:23:09Z")
Caveat: much of this is not what I would be saying if not explicitly asked to play devil’s advocate. Sorry for not putting quotes back in, this is taking long enough as it is. Here’s the original post: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14122070&postcount=1934](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14122070&postcount=1934) > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > I have more and more problems with these claims. Let’s start right from the very beginning shall we? > > Let’s call this section “Odd Behavior” > > 1. Inner Stickler mentions paranoid doctor, repeats it over and over, shows absolutely no concern about being outed as such. Extremely odd behavior for a doctor. Devil’s advocate says … No wait, I do have one, though it’s kind of from a twisted perspective. What’s really different about IS doing this and what Red did? That vig comment _had to_ catch the attention of the scum at least in a “hmmm” sort of way, and “vig needs to breadcrumb” is somethign I don’t buy in itself. If you’re a vig, you prove your good intentions with solid kill choices, not by telling the scum what you are up front. What makes IS scummy for this and Red not? > [@](#): > > 1. Inner Stickler mentions a vigilante and a godfather. Others handwave this as not perfect information syndrome. Still don’t think this is or needs to be PIS. Both those roles are so very common. > [@](#): > > 1. Inner Stickler was around when septimus avoided the first lynch; coincidence or interest in the outcome of the fate of his friend? Immediate distancing. Votes early the next round on septimus, but when TexCat is capable of being lynched instead of septimus or ShadowFacts, Inner double votes TexCat. I found his comments on Septimus’ actions to ring true, for whatever that’s worth. Inner couldn’t lynch Septimus with three minutes left in the round and couldn’t expect anyone else to either. With a power role he had to vote for someone who was going to get lynched, and if he and SF are both scum, he exposed himself unnecessarily (since SF still had his vote boosts in play that could have accomplished the same thing). > [@](#): > > 1. Inner doesn’t vote at all next round until after I make the damning case on septimus. > > 2. Inner has a “waiting to vote” strategy most of the game. Devil’s advocate says that waiting a long time to vote is not atypical of Inner. > [@](#): > > 1. Inner claims under one whole vote of pressure this round. One vote. Devil’s advocate says why is he not afraid of counterclaim/what would be so incredibly awesome about counterclaim that a scum would want to play that card at the cost of his own life? > [@](#): > > 1. Inner predicts that he’s going to survive for several rounds as lynchbait. Really? A claimed nonparanoid doctor whose SOLE TOWNIE OPPONENT is a NPC basic townie? That’s the guy who is going to lynch him? I have that much authority? I doubt I could get anyone to lynch Inner Stickler even if Red and Shadow both popped up townie. People are afraid of lynching their doctor that much. He really predicts he’s going to live as LYNCH BAIT? > > **That’s the behavior. The behavior which absolutely no one besides me finds scummy.** You did get Septimus lynched. > [@](#): > > Now, let’s look at the claims, because, to be honest, these claims are freaking golden. > > Let’s call this section “How convenient.” > > Oh what excellent timing. Coincidental, fair enough, I’ll pass this off as coincidental. > > I think Inner realizes that a paranoid doctor would have removed the block at least once by now so Lightfoot could scan. A scum paranoid doctor couldn’t do such a thing and allow a scan to go through. So now, suddenly, Inner isn’t a paranoid doctor anymore and obviously the scums are blocking Lightfoot. > > \*\*PROBLEM: The blocking looks _identical every night, even on the nights the paranoid doctor/cleric was doing it. Which causes me to doubt that something different happens last night as Stickler claims._ Blocking identical: There must be _some_ town doctor at play, between no-kill nights (plural) and game setup expectations, yet there’s no sign of that in Lightfoot’s PMs either. So not seeing IS (whatever he’s doing there) can’t be taken as meaning anything. A scum Inner had no need to claim a block both of the first two nights. He had two professed vanilla townies at hand (you and me) and less reason then than now to “believe” either of us townie. It’s not a good move for a paranoid doc, but by that same token can’t be used as evidence that he’s lying, that he claims as much. > [@](#): > > That’s quite a leap of logic to make. Again, the blocks look exactly the same, except for the mention of a headache N2, and then silencing N3 and N4. But generally, they’re IDENTICAL. One unreasonable explanation doesn’t equal scum, and the first half is obviously the true explanation, if IS is town. > [@](#): > > Now, people have told me that the doctor wouldn’t know if his target was protected on this board, well fair enough. But there are other issues I have. > It just so happens… > Look! Inner Stickler protected\*\* special ed \*\*Night one. Special ed who is now dead. > > Look! Suburban plankton tracked basic nothing townie \*\*ATPG \*\*Night one, who was supposed to be informed he was tracked, but was not. Then he got his results anyway. > > Then, Suburban Plankton tracked **special ed**. Who is now dead. > > Then Suburban Plankton tracked **ShadowFacts** , who is going to be lynched and had already claimed to have a blocking power. **What in the blue heck were you trying to learn, Suburban Plankton?** **Not related to IS, but a good point. SP can only determine activity or lack thereof at this point, correct? And he tracks a claimed roleblocker? Why? I see no motive for it town OR scum. And yet he clearly did do so (Shadow’s result PM), unless both players are scum and cooked this up between them. (And then where does that leave Inner Stickler?)** In my own voice for a second here: whatever the verdict on IS, I think I still have even more issues with SF and SP. > [@](#): > > Then, Suburban Plankton tracked\*\* Inner Stickler\*\*, to “confirm” that he was the doctor. Instead of, I dunno, trying to find some scumbags. > > You know, the doctor _who could have been murdered_, thus making sure Suburban learns nothing at all that night, **which is convenient since he’s learned absolutely nothing in 4 nights anyway that I haven’t already TOLD HIM.** No arguments from me here. Wanna lynch Suburban? :headdesk: > [@](#): > > Arcane shapes? Nifty. > > [Magic in Dungeons & Dragons - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons) > > **Clerics cast divine spells.** > > **Wizards and sorcerers cast arcane spells.** > > \*\*\*Cleric \*\*who causes \*\*headaches \*\*and \*\*blocks \*\*his target, casting \*\*arcane \*_spells?_ > > Yeah okay, I’m all over that idea. See aforementioned comment about DND knowledge. This argument depends entirely on reading Astral correctly. If he would use the word arcane as a generic descriptor for “magical stuff” that could nevertheless include divine spells, then there is no indictment of Inner, here. If he would, then someone goofed badly with their cover role plan. I don’t know how to guess which is the case. As such I can’t consider this as evidence against Inner. > [@](#): > > Now the question, if Suburban Plankton is townie, is if he actually uncovered the lie in Inner Stickler’s story without knowing it. If Suburban Plankton is mafia, maybe he said “arcane” because his friend has arcane magic and he didn’t know that clerics don’t cast arcane spells. > > How coincidental! Gosh there seem to be a lot of blockers out there. And all hitting exactly the right people at exactly the right time. Something is severely wrong with this situation. If there’s a town role that can clear any of it up, they have to claim, as soon as possible. I’ve tried elsewhere to unpack the puzzle and can’t quite get there on current information. > [@](#): > > More holes in the story. This also seems solid on current information. Why aren’t you going after Suburban Plankton instead of IS, Pizzaguy? _narrowed defense attorney eyes_ > [@](#): > > I like the coincidence of Inner Stickler and Suburban Plankton both being online to claim and confirm each other’s tales right when I start pressing hard on Inner Stickler. > > Did I cause enough damage with septimus and possibly ShadowFacts that you had to come up with a game plan to nip this one in the bud? These claims are absolutely brilliant and perfectly timed. Well, except for the potentiality of a doctor counterclaim tearing the whole thing to shreds, it’s perfect. If the counterclaim don’t fit .. yeah I can’t remember the rest of that line. > [@](#): > > More holes in the story that Inner Stickler just hand-waves away, and then goes ahead and questions the theory. It’s backwards… and then he’s responding to my criticism of the claim instead of Suburban Plankton doing it. He sure seems to have a vested interest in the story being believed. I can’t believe my\* lone vote\* is what causes that kind of vested interest. I’m getting tired and can’t WIFOM my way through this one in either direction. I’ll have to pass. > [@](#): > > I am a stupid pizzaguy. Here’s why this was naive. > > The idea is that Inner Stickler probably does have a paranoid doctor kind of role. Which means, if Stickler is scum, they have no reason to expect a counterclaim from a townie doctor; what good is a cover role of a doctor when there’s a REAL doctor out there to counterclaim you? It’s just handicapping. > > I was naive to assume that someone would counterclaim the doctor claim. A scum paranoid doctor is useful to the scum team for protection on whoever isn’t murdering, and a useful cover role, AND can block detectives, which there is one in the game. > > Therefore, Inner is the paranoid doctor. As town, or scum. Why would scum not have killed LF by now? Inner taking his protection off and “getting burned” somewhere in there – and never being counterclaimed – has got to be at least as good in terms of town cred as never taking protection off at all over three nights. Not to mention the Seer is still alive to wreak havoc, should IS himself ever be roleblocked or whatever. Not to mention unless Astral gave the scum a lot more info than normal, they’d have to reason to believe there was no town doc in the game (and I don’t even want to get into LF right now). Not to mention the no-kill nights – what are those (or at least one of them) if not scum shooting at a protected Lightfoot? I don’t buy it. > [@](#): > > _"I was never informed that you tracked me. According to your information, I should have been told that. Even with a delayed result._" > Really? Why would you doubt that? The moderator could AT LEAST CONFIRM there was no error involved… > > Good, unsubstantiated theories which don’t make any sense considering the delayed blocks don’t seem to match the blocks that happened to Red Skeezix or even Lightfoot, and don’t seem to match special ed’s or ShadowFacts’ spellbook blocks. > > That makes what, a fourth or fifth roleblocker with a delay? Oh sweet Skeezix, help me. > > What a question. I’m in the middle of questioning the doctor and attempting to verify his story with, you know, critical thinking, and this is the response I get? > > I wasn’t _ **paying attention?** _ > > If there’s a real doctor in the game besides Stickler and there isn’t, that would be a very big thorn in the mafia’s side. What good is a cover role of doctor if it cannot be used effectively by the scum team? Keeping the presumptive vig-designee alive another night, as Red Skeezix has claimed to believe happened with Septimus. And this goes against the spirit of devil’s advocate but: IF what the scum have is a real investigator and not a tracker or some such; and IF they have just last night found out that pedescribe is the town doc; THEN this does all make sense. A lot of "if"s. I have to stop here, because I’m just out of steam for teh moment. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1958 "2011-08-10T14:27:55Z")
BTW I edited the last “not to mention” in that one list. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1959 "2011-08-10T14:35:42Z")
Okay normal thank you very much, one last bit for later: You mentioned the word “arcane” could be used in the generic usage, not the de’endee usage. Okay fair enough. Discard the word itself. That’s not even the damning part. The damning part is that in the **description** , he’s doing [synonym for arcane] ritual thingies with his hands (which is a characteristic of “arcane magic”) and the spell cast is actually bright and flashy, (which is characteristic of arcane magic over divine magic, according to wikipedia). And, in the wikipedia list of example spells, I found one in the arcana classification which matched a sorcerer, wizard, or mage casting brightly colored magic at someone for the purposes of incapacitation. I would wager this could cause headaches and drain their strength as well. Next, I checked the divine magic list and found no such counterexample. So, I have “arcane”, I have actions characteristic of arcane magic, I have a brightly colored spell which resembles arcane magic, I have a result that favors arcane magic, I have a mafia game where a “Paladin” claimed a role where they were bulletproof, not a vigilante, and I have a mafia game where a “Cleric” is casting what seems to be arcane magic which blocks people from doing actions. That’s where it pushes it into the “I have to speak up” instead of “shut up and watch ShadowFacts die” category for me. Off to work I go. Good luck sorting this all out, without getting a massive headache, trying to break out of it, and then collapsing in your bed exhausted. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052/1960 "2011-08-10T14:46:13Z")
Yeah, I didn’t get that far. Back in my own voice, I would be willing in a broad sense to vote for Inner Stickler for the “why would scum kill me” post and for his role in the night one roleblock confusion. That’s what makes sense to me, personally. I’d be very, very nervous about getting it wrong, though, given that the only really rational explanation I can think of for such a gambit involves so many “ifs”. (There is an “irrational explanation” that runs along the lines of “oh fuck we’re screwed, let’s blow as many townie brains out their ears as we can, on the way out”, but that sort of assumes the conclusion.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=97) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deendee-mafia/588052.md?page=99)