# Deep Space 9 and Voyager Re-watch \[edited title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 10, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-and-voyager-re-watch-edited-title/615409 "2012-03-10T21:40:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-and-voyager-re-watch-edited-title/615409/181 "2012-05-07T20:41:38Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > But that wasn’t the biggest difference with Trills. The one on TNG completely took over the human host, rather than merging into a composite personality. Riker was not Riker when he was a temporary host. These kinds of continuity issues arise when someone takes something that was originally penned for a one-off episode and wants to incorporate a long-term character. They then shape the character into how to make it work better, which unfortunately contradicts prior elements. In the TNG episode we encounter them, the Trills are really the personality of the symbiont, and the “host” is almost completely subsumed. This is the premise for that episode, that the identity that Crusher falls in love with is the interior identity, not the host, so when the host changes and the identity is the same, it throws the human who isn’t prepared for that kind of process. It’s one of those think pieces that ST strived for (and accomplished to varying degrees). But when they started proposing a major Trill character, it became a matter of trying to explain them in more detail, I assume it was decided that having humanoids that had no contribution to the end result was awkward and not sympathetic, so they instead proposed a hybrid identity, whereby the host and the symbiont contribute together. So when the symbiont gets a new host, some of the personality and memories are the same, and some are different. This allows exploration of an alien society whereby really long term relationships exist but also morph over time. Thus Dax and Sisko are old pals, but Jadzia also has her influences in the relationship directions, like hooking up with Worf. ---
**Author:** ![NiceGuyJack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/niceguyjack/32/3069_2.png) [@NiceGuyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NiceGuyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-and-voyager-re-watch-edited-title/615409/182 "2012-05-08T01:09:06Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > These kinds of continuity issues arise when someone takes something that was originally penned for a one-off episode and wants to incorporate a long-term character. They then shape the character into how to make it work better, which unfortunately contradicts prior elements. I think this is exactly what happened with the Trill. There was a different reason for the Klingons though. IIRC, they wanted to change the look of the Klingons featured in one of the movies and that’s how they got the turtle shell. I liked the DS9 episode where they crossed over into a TOS episode **The Trouble with Tribbles**. In one scene someone asks Worf why the Klingons looked so different and he replies; “_It’s a long story._” I think I read somewhere that an explanation was given, but I don’t think it was explained in any of the TV series. Can’t remember where I read about it. Anyway, I can say that I have started in on season 4 now. Kes is gone and hello 7of 9. Is it my imagination or are the episodes getting better? Even the ones not featuring 7 have been pretty damned good. In **Nemesis** , Chakotay is for once not so annoying and I loved the twist at the end that he had actually been brainwashed all this time. And then there was **Revulsion** which I thought was brilliant. Leland Orser was playing the hologram on an alien ship. The way he described disgusting “Organics” was fantastic. I even started feeling a bit disgusted with myself the way he described us. I had to take a shower after watching it, as I suddenly felt the need to clean myself. Then there was **Scientific Method** , which was good, in a creepy sort of way. However, I did have a moment of familiarity in that episode. It’s the one where the crew are being experimented on by an alien race who manages to remain invisible as they perform a series of pointless and sometimes fatal experiments. The thing is, I can’t help but seem to recall a similar episode in TNG. Am I just mixing it up? Or did they just dress up an old TNG episode? Then there is **The Raven**. It’s funny really, all this time I’ve been waiting for 7 to make an appearance and then I can’t help but have a nitpick against one of the 7 specific episodes. My problem with this one is that we know Voyager is far into the Delta quadrant so how did the federation ship The Raven end up so far into the Delta quadrant? It wasn’t explained unless I missed it somehow. Her parents were apparently famous scientists on earth before they set out so it’s not a second generation thing, and they appeared to be middleaged, so unless they left as children, they couldn’t have reached so far into the Delta quadrant. Actually, now that I think about it, there could be an explanation coming up in a future episode. My memory is a bit vague on this point. Next up: **Year of Hell** parts 1 & 2, which if IIRC were great episodes. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-and-voyager-re-watch-edited-title/615409/183 "2012-05-08T01:23:16Z")
> [@NiceGuyJack](#): > > There was a different reason for the Klingons though. IIRC, they wanted to change the look of the Klingons featured in one of the movies and that’s how they got the turtle shell. I liked the DS9 episode where they crossed over into a TOS episode **The Trouble with Tribbles**. In one scene someone asks Worf why the Klingons looked so different and he replies; “_It’s a long story._” Shame Sir! He says, “We do not speak of it.” And the Fan-Fic episodes of Enterprise explaining it wasted an episode when it was getting better. ---
**Author:** ![NiceGuyJack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/niceguyjack/32/3069_2.png) [@NiceGuyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NiceGuyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-and-voyager-re-watch-edited-title/615409/184 "2012-05-08T01:37:17Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Shame Sir! > He says, “We do not speak of it.” > And the Fan-Fic episodes of Enterprise explaining it wasted an episode when it was getting better. Actually, that does sound more like what Worf would say. I stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-and-voyager-re-watch-edited-title/615409/185 "2012-05-08T01:47:14Z")
> [@NiceGuyJack](#): > > Actually, that does sound more like what Worf would say. > I stand corrected. Thank you, Sir. Now, Mods. having Fought Ignorance, do I win a Home Baked Cookie from Mrs. Cecil? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-and-voyager-re-watch-edited-title/615409/186 "2012-05-08T01:56:14Z")
> [@gonzoron](#): > > That could be fanwanked (or might have even been stated outright by the creators somewhere) that it’s different when the symbiont is in a human instead of a real trill host. But even so, the new Odan wanted to continue her relationship with Crusher, IIRC, which was supposedly taboo on DS9 when Dax met and kissed her widow. Maybe it’s only taboo when both partners are Trill? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-and-voyager-re-watch-edited-title/615409/187 "2012-05-08T02:02:08Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Maybe it’s only taboo when both partners are Trill? I believed that only Trill could host a symbiot (sp) without losing their identity. Does anyone know about the Trill Wars, Symbiot Wars, whatever they were called? ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-and-voyager-re-watch-edited-title/615409/188 "2012-05-08T03:08:33Z")
> [@NiceGuyJack](#): > > And then there was **Revulsion** which I thought was brilliant. Leland Orser was playing the hologram on an alien ship. Huzzah for Leland Orser! I am not a Voyager fan at all, but there were some great moments sprinkled throughout, and that was one of them. Ever since Alien: Ressurection, I’ve kept my eye out for him, and he has always delivered, including that episode. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-and-voyager-re-watch-edited-title/615409/189 "2012-05-08T04:32:23Z")
> [@NiceGuyJack](#): > > Actually, now that I think about it, there could be an explanation coming up in a future episode. My memory is a bit vague on this point. There is. It has to do with the way the Borg travel long distances, something that hasn’t been revealed as of that episode. And, for once, I don’t think it was a justification made up after the fact. It just makes sense that the crew of Voyager doesn’t know how it happened yet. > [@](#): > > Next up: **Year of Hell** parts 1 & 2, which if IIRC were great episodes. They’re good, I agree. But do realize the time thing lets them get by with a break in continuity. It seems that this episode makes it where Kes’s backwards travel through time never happened–even though they never flat out say this nor even mention the character. Also, did you know the Year of Hell was originally intended to actually last a whole season? You know, to actually make life away from the Federation difficult and give us the show we were promised. Also, **CP** , it’s symbiont. It’s a real word. ---
**Author:** ![NiceGuyJack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/niceguyjack/32/3069_2.png) [@NiceGuyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NiceGuyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-and-voyager-re-watch-edited-title/615409/190 "2012-05-08T06:21:25Z")
By the way, I couldn’t help but notice that the captain improved her appearance in season 4. Gone was that awful old maid hairstyle and now she’s sporting a shorter younger hairstyle. I wonder if it had anything to do with 7 of 9 coming aboard. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-and-voyager-re-watch-edited-title/615409/191 "2012-05-08T07:22:58Z")
> [@NiceGuyJack](#): > > By the way, I couldn’t help but notice that the captain improved her appearance in season 4. Gone was that awful old maid hairstyle and now she’s sporting a shorter younger hairstyle. > I wonder if it had anything to do with 7 of 9 coming aboard. :dubious: All I know is that Mulgrew had been wanting to use her real hair since the beginning, and this is when they finally let her. And her hair had changed once before, in season 3. You’ve also got to remember that Seven of Nine was not originally intended to sex up the show. That came after the idea to add a Borg, as a way of making the character more appealing. ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-and-voyager-re-watch-edited-title/615409/192 "2012-05-08T13:03:39Z")
Slightly off topic, but I thought this was very amusing… [TNG Season 8](http://twitter.com/#!/TNG_S8) ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-and-voyager-re-watch-edited-title/615409/193 "2012-05-08T21:38:26Z")
> [@Bakhesh](#): > > Slightly off topic, but I thought this was very amusing… > > [TNG Season 8](http://twitter.com/#!/TNG_S8) These are hysterical 😃 ---
**Author:** ![NiceGuyJack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/niceguyjack/32/3069_2.png) [@NiceGuyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NiceGuyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-and-voyager-re-watch-edited-title/615409/194 "2012-05-10T16:37:12Z")
Just about finished season 4. I watched the episode **Message in a Bottle** where in… Voyager finds a way to communicate to the Alpha quadrant. In the episode, they send the Doctor through to the ship on the other side. He is eventually sent back, but during his absence, Tom has to take care of sickbay. And he asks Harry to help create a new Doctor, which ends in failure. I couldn’t help but think, surely they would have sent a copy of the Doctor. In fact, wouldn’t it be easier? I mean when I transfer a file to an external hard drive, the original file doesn’t disappear. I figured, ok, maybe it has something to do with the Doctors programing, but then in episode **Living Witness** the Doctor…is discovered at an archaeological site. It turns out it’s a backup copy of the Doctor from 700 years ago. In other words, the Doctor can be copied. Just bothers me a bit. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-and-voyager-re-watch-edited-title/615409/195 "2012-05-10T16:50:19Z")
The way the Doctor (and holograms in general) were treated on Voyager (and to a lesser extent TNG and DS9) show a real lack of basic computer knowledge. You just have to groan and accept it. ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-and-voyager-re-watch-edited-title/615409/196 "2012-05-10T18:07:21Z")
You have to forgive crap like that all the time on TV. To a TV writer, a computer might as well be called a magic box. Shame though, as ‘Message in a Bottle’ is one of the few decent Voyager episodes. ---
**Author:** ![NiceGuyJack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/niceguyjack/32/3069_2.png) [@NiceGuyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NiceGuyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-and-voyager-re-watch-edited-title/615409/197 "2012-05-10T18:11:49Z")
> [@Bakhesh](#): > > You have to forgive crap like that all the time on TV. To a TV writer, a computer might as well be called a magic box. > > Shame though, as ‘Message in a Bottle’ is one of the few decent Voyager episodes. As was Living Witness. I guess one has to overlook such things. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-and-voyager-re-watch-edited-title/615409/198 "2012-05-10T20:59:02Z")
> [@NiceGuyJack](#): > > I think this is exactly what happened with the Trill. > > There was a different reason for the Klingons though. IIRC, they wanted to change the look of the Klingons featured in one of the movies and that’s how they got the turtle shell. I liked the DS9 episode where they crossed over into a TOS episode **The Trouble with Tribbles**. In one scene someone asks Worf why the Klingons looked so different and he replies; “_It’s a long story._” > I think I read somewhere that an explanation was given, but I don’t think it was explained in any of the TV series. Can’t remember where I read about it. _Enterprise_ addressed this. IIRC [spoiler]there is some sort of Genetic manipulation virus unleashed on the Klingons, that makes their heads go smooth. [/quote] This is one of those points they’d have been better to just pretend was the same, and ignore. It only became a real problem when DS9 did a twister episode with _The Trouble With Tribbles_, and Worf was inserted into the station alongside TOS Klingons. The discontinuity was blantantly obvious and difficult to pretend wasn’t there. Ergo, the “we do not discuss this” blow off to shut the topic down. ---
**Author:** ![NiceGuyJack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/niceguyjack/32/3069_2.png) [@NiceGuyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NiceGuyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-and-voyager-re-watch-edited-title/615409/199 "2012-05-14T16:33:31Z")
In to season 5 now. In the episode **Thirty Days** Tom Paris gets demoted to ensign. Then I noticed in the episode **Course: Oblivion** that he is back to being a lieutenant. I can’t remember seeing an episode where his rank was restored. Did I miss something or have they forgotten and/or overlooked his demotion? ---
**Author:** ![NiceGuyJack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/niceguyjack/32/3069_2.png) [@NiceGuyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NiceGuyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-and-voyager-re-watch-edited-title/615409/200 "2012-05-14T16:47:37Z")
> [@NiceGuyJack](#): > > In to season 5 now. > In the episode **Thirty Days** Tom Paris gets demoted to ensign. > Then I noticed in the episode **Course: Oblivion** that he is back to being a lieutenant. > I can’t remember seeing an episode where his rank was restored. Did I miss something or have they forgotten and/or overlooked his demotion? Never mind. Just continued watching the episode and the explanation was apparent. I guess I jumped the gun there a bit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-and-voyager-re-watch-edited-title/615409.md?page=9)