# Deep Space 9: What You Leave Behind (obligatory spoilker warning) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 3, 2005, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742 "2005-03-03T12:46:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742/21 "2005-03-03T14:56:13Z")
Part of the problem lies in Roddenberry’s mixed up ideals as presented in his Technology Unchained Utopia. Several threads have dealt with that and might make an interesting read. I’ll leave it for someone else to link to, because I’m running late now. Damn this addiction! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742/22 "2005-03-03T15:00:06Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Why would the Founders so blatantly and overtly turn their backs on their Cardassian allies and fawn over the Breen? Surely they would know better than to completely snub the Cardies. I never understood the reasoning behind that. It was not diplomatic, to say the least. The Founders are gods. Gods don’t worry about stuff like that. They’re not used to things like diplomacy or worrying about the feelings of those beneath them, and from their perspective, everyone is beneath them. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742/23 "2005-03-03T15:00:19Z")
If there aren’t any NCO’s or petty officers, then what the heck do you think O’Brien himself is?? Personally, I think there are a lot more enlisted and NCO’s on the enterprise than it seems… the uniforms aren’t that different. (The egalitarian thing again.) Also, probably some writers for the early episodes weren’t sure what NCO ranks to use and thus made minor characters officers when it really wasn’t appropriate. I’d have to say that starfleet is semi-military. Considering that it is the primary defensive arm of the Federation, it could hardly help but have part of that tradition. It also has aspects that are not consistent with contemporary military institutions, and this accounts for a lot of the confusion in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742/24 "2005-03-03T15:08:04Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > As for O’Brian I don’t think he’d be teaching an academic course. Star Fleet is a military academy so I imagine in addition to academic studies the students would have to undergo some sort of actual military training. That means marches, tactics, and other physical training. Sorry, no. He told Julian (or Molly?) that he was going to teach engineering. Although, knowing Miles, the course is “How to Bring a Starship’s Warp Drive Back On Line During a Battle Using Only Self-Sealing Stem Bolts and Chewing Gum” with the companion course, “Using Ferengi Ensigns to Barter for Spare Parts: A Diplomatic Approach.” ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742/25 "2005-03-03T15:08:38Z")
I didn’t say there weren’t any non-coms in Starfleet – O’Brien being an obvious NCO; Rand another – I said there weren’t any (should have said “many”) on the Enterprise-D. ---
**Author:** ![PookahMacPhellimey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pookahmacphellimey/32/3175_2.png) [@PookahMacPhellimey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PookahMacPhellimey)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742/26 "2005-03-03T16:43:34Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > I’m trying to remember if Winn ever personally ran into Dukat. I must assume no, since she didn’t recognize him when he came to her as a Bajoran, even with that distinctive voice. But surely a former concentration camp prisoner would recognize Hitler, even if he was disguised? Mmmmm, distinctive voice…_drool_ Huh? What was the question again? Oh yes. Well, **Aesiron** got it right. He was never the “big boss” of the occupation, just a high up officer so he wouldn’t necessarily be all that well known, I presume. The Hitler comparison is a bit off maybe. Or so I want it to be. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742/27 "2005-03-03T16:58:10Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > Picard is also on record as saying that StarFleet is primarily an exploring organisation and not specificly military. > > Trust me, as far back as Phil Farrands Nit Pickers Guild, we’ve been arguing the inconsistancies of StarFleet as military or not in all the eps, movies, and previous series. There is no solid fact or canonical statement that can prove one way or the other. David Marcus specifically refers to Starfleet as “the military” in the second film, saying they wanted to get their hands on the Genesis Project. Gene didn’t like that, though, so even though it was by far the best movie, anything remotely Rodden-icky was eliminated from future projects. By the way, I’d just like to re-interate that _Just the Way You Look Tonight_ was a horrifically bad choice for the final episode. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742/28 "2005-03-03T17:07:54Z")
Boo! That was an awesome song choice if for no other reason than the “laugh that wrinkles your nose” line sung to Kira. God, I miss _Deep Space Nine_. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742/29 "2005-03-03T17:07:56Z")
> [@PookahMacPhellimey](#): > > . He was never the “big boss” of the occupation, just a high up officer so he wouldn’t necessarily be all that well known, I presume. The Hitler comparison is a bit off maybe. Or so I want it to be. 🙂 I disagree, sorry. Dukat was in charge of Terak Nor and oversaw the execution of thousands of Bajorans. If he wasn’t Hitler he was at least one of the generals. Plus, he was the on-hands representative of the Cardassians during the occupation. I think most Bajorans would think of Dukat when they thought of the Cardassians. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742/30 "2005-03-03T17:10:14Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > David Marcus specifically refers to Starfleet as “the military” in the second film, saying they wanted to get their hands on the Genesis Project. > > Gene didn’t like that, though, so even though it was by far the best movie, anything remotely Rodden-icky was eliminated from future projects. Oh, and David Marcus is a completely objective and infallible source? 😃 Just because he said it, or inferred cliche destructive reasons for starfleet’s support of the genesis research, doesn’t necessarily make it so. Doesn’t make it completely wrong either. Like a lot of things, I suspect that the truth was somewhere in between. Probably some starfleet admirals at the time (like the ones who were in section 31 at the time?) wouldn’t have minded zapping the whole klingon empire into beautiful, pastoral empty colony worlds… maybe the romulans too. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742/31 "2005-03-03T17:21:59Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Dukat was in charge of Terak Nor and oversaw the execution of thousands of Bajorans. If he wasn’t Hitler he was at least one of the generals. Plus, he was the on-hands representative of the Cardassians during the occupation. Sorry, no. Dukat was an administrator of a mining operation, not the mastermind of a Bajoran Holocaust. Granted, he did not stop the rape and murder of Bajorans but he didn’t devise an Ultimate Solution to rid the planet of its inhabitants either. Think of Japanese Manchuria instead of German occupied Poland and you’ll have a better frame of reference. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742/32 "2005-03-03T17:32:14Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Sorry, no. Dukat was an administrator of a mining operation, not the mastermind of a Bajoran Holocaust. Granted, he did not stop the rape and murder of Bajorans but he didn’t devise an Ultimate Solution to rid the planet of its inhabitants either. > > Think of Japanese Manchuria instead of German occupied Poland and you’ll have a better frame of reference. hmm… interesting point, maybe, though I’m not familiar enough with nazi occupied poland to be totally clear on the difference. Bajor had been conquered, and the Cardassians were taking everything that they could from it. Not just minerals and metals, though that might have been the most important thing. This may be non-canon, but I imagine Bajorans laboring in the fields to grow Cardassian delicacies that could be shipped back home, while Bajorans starved… Maybe even slaving. Didn’t that cardassian spy in TNG try to pose as a bounty hunter, taking ensign sito back as an escaped bajoran slave girl?? (Not that it worked out too well for him.) ---
**Author:** ![PookahMacPhellimey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pookahmacphellimey/32/3175_2.png) [@PookahMacPhellimey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PookahMacPhellimey)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742/33 "2005-03-03T17:50:07Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > I disagree, sorry. Dukat was in charge of Terak Nor and oversaw the execution of thousands of Bajorans. If he wasn’t Hitler he was at least one of the generals. Plus, he was the on-hands representative of the Cardassians during the occupation. I think most Bajorans would think of Dukat when they thought of the Cardassians. But _splutter_, he was nice to his kids, you know. I still don’t think the Hitler comparison quite flies for reasons of both rank and purpose as **Aesiron** and others are pointing out. But I think you are thinking in practical terms of recognition here, instead debating on how “nice” he was or wasn’t (answer: probably not very nice at all, no matter who you end up comparing him to). In which case I think the voice was probably not enough to give him away. I mean, him going Bajoran was pretty loopy to start of with. I think I wouldn’t recognise most famous people just by voise if they looked very different and turned up in unexpected places. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742/34 "2005-03-03T17:54:41Z")
Poland was attacked by Germany as much to add territory to the Third Reich as it was to get access to their massive Jewish and Gypsy populations – the largest in Europe if I remember correctly – whereas Manchuria was grabbed by the Japanese mostly for its raw resources and their human rights atrocities were “just” a side-effect and not the cold calculation that the Holocaust was. And yes, they took other things from Bajor (the Orbs being the most obvious example) but I never got the impression they scoured the planet for any delicacies and that any food shortages were either the result of strip mining the planet and devestating the ecosystem, destroying the Bajoran infrastructure during the invasion, or in retaliation for continuing terrorism. > [@chrisk](#): > > Maybe even slaving. Didn’t that Cardassian spy in TNG try to pose as a bounty hunter, taking Ensign Sito back as an escaped Bajoran slave girl? He was posing as a hijacker, not a bounty hunter. Remember, he was in an escaped (and “battle damaged”) Starfleet shuttle on his return. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742/35 "2005-03-03T18:07:36Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > And yes, they took other things from Bajor (the Orbs being the most obvious example) but I never got the impression they scoured the planet for any delicacies and that any food shortages were either the result of strip mining the planet and devestating the ecosystem, destroying the Bajoran infrastructure during the invasion, or in retaliation for continuing terrorism. > > He was posing as a hijacker, not a bounty hunter. Remember, he was in an escaped (and “battle damaged”) Starfleet shuttle on his return. Re the occupation - probably this is a case of a slight incongruity between early episodes and further background being established in later episodes. The first time we saw the bajorans (in ‘ensign ro’) I think there were a number of things that had been rattled off that the cardassians had took for them. (And I admitted that the food thing was something that I had thought of on my own, but I don’t think it’s inconsistent with the ‘greedy mentality’ that was being portrayed there.) One thing that they definitely did mention was large numbers of bajorans losing their homes and homeland… I hadn’t thought of strip mining at the time, which could explain it… I probably thought of cardassians actually coming in and living on the planet for the sake of living space. Re the cardassian spy - Yes, they were setting up that he’d stolen a shuttle and it had been damaged en route… possibly when he was escaping from starfleet officers who took a dim view of cardassian bounty hunters working in federation territory. If he was just some ordinary cardassian hijacker, though, why would it have been important for Sito to go along?? (On the other hand, if he were a bounty hunter, she could have been a minor terrorist instead of an escaped slave.) > [@pookah](#): > > In which case I think the voice was probably not enough to give him away. I mean, him going Bajoran was pretty loopy to start of with. I think I wouldn’t recognise most famous people just by voise if they looked very different and turned up in unexpected places. I immediately thought of people recognizing james earl jones’ voice on cartoons and when it’s associated with mysterious figures in masks… but then, his voice is arguably even more distinctive and famous than hitler’s 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742/36 "2005-03-03T18:19:22Z")
> [@chrisk](#): > > If he was just some ordinary cardassian hijacker, though, why would it have been important for Sito to go along?? (On the other hand, if he were a bounty hunter, she could have been a minor terrorist instead of an escaped slave.) To cast as little suspicion on him as possible. Showing up in a pristine Starfleet shuttlecrafte would be highly suspicious but if he crossed the border with a shuttle leaking plasma coolant and buised, battered, and beaten Bajoran, I assume the ship that intercepts him would be more likely to believe his story, whatever that may be. ---
**Author:** ![PookahMacPhellimey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pookahmacphellimey/32/3175_2.png) [@PookahMacPhellimey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PookahMacPhellimey)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742/37 "2005-03-03T18:19:43Z")
> [@chrisk](#): > > I immediately thought of people recognizing james earl jones’ voice on cartoons and when it’s associated with mysterious figures in masks… but then, his voice is arguably even more distinctive and famous than hitler’s 😃 _displays ignorance_ Which cartoon characters does he voice then? I mean it though, leaving Hitler out of it for a second, I doubt I would recognise, say, Madonna by voice if she turned up looking Chinese and working as a zookeeper. Which is almost as out of context as Dukat is being. Mind you, they seem to change races on ST which such ease that I wonder why everyone thinks that’s such a brilliant disguise. Come to think of it, on TNG everyone does immediately recognise the Romulan commander looks like Tasha. But then they knew Tasha a lot better than Winn would have known Dukat. Hmmm, I seem to be rambling a bit, but I still say that all in all the fact she doesn’t recognise him seems to me to not stretch plausibilty too much- just a bit maybe. And compared to some of the plausibilty stretching that goes on in ST I think it barely registers. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742/38 "2005-03-03T18:27:30Z")
> [@PookahMacPhellimey](#): > > Mind you, they seem to change races on ST which such ease that I wonder why everyone thinks that’s such a brilliant disguise. Come to think of it, on TNG everyone does immediately recognise the Romulan commander looks like Tasha. But then they knew Tasha a lot better than Winn would have known Dukat. Marc Alaimo/Dukat, J.G. Hertzler/Martok, Aaorn Eisenberg/Nog, and Jeffrey Combs/Weyoun all have (non-obvious) speaking roles in _Far Beyond the Stars_ as humans but none of them are conspicuous and a lot of fans never realize it. Similarly, Casey Biggs/Damar has an even less obvious cameo sans makeup in the first episode of the seventh season and even less fans recognize him despite his own distinctive voice. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742/39 "2005-03-03T18:29:23Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > To cast as little suspicion on him as possible. > > Showing up in a pristine Starfleet shuttlecrafte would be highly suspicious but if he crossed the border with a shuttle leaking plasma coolant and buised, battered, and beaten Bajoran, I assume the ship that intercepts him would be more likely to believe his story, whatever that may be. I found a review of the episode on usenet that confirms the bounty hunter reference, though I’m not sure how to cite usenet. Nothing about what he’d have captured her for, though, so that doesn’t really confirm anything about the slaving issue. If they just needed a prisoner, why would it have been necessary that she be bajoran? (Just because cardassians dislike bajorans on principle so seeing a bajoran hurt would get them in a good mood??) > [@PookahMacPhellimey](#): > > _displays ignorance_ Which cartoon characters does he voice then? Off the top of my head, for cartoon characters, the father lion in disney’s ‘the lion king’ and the old jazz player on ‘the simpsons.’ Plus darth vader (the guy in the mask I mentioned…) I actually think that sticks out in my head because of the moment in the simpsons where their heads are all poking out of the same cloud, plus james himself (saying “this is CNN”,) and my brother made fun of me for not realizing that they were all the same voice. So I guess I’m not good with recognizing those things either. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742/40 "2005-03-03T18:32:36Z")
Oh, I’ll also chime in that as far as being recognizably similar, the tasha/sela thing is probably because, as well as having the same face more or less, there’s no big difference in skin tone or hair color between those two roles. Dukat, on the other hand, definitely had very different color skin when he went Bajoran, didn’t he? I can’t remember about the hair. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-space-9-what-you-leave-behind-obligatory-spoilker-warning/292742.md?page=3)