# Deep State **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 15, 2017, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-state/779933 "2017-02-15T20:28:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-state/779933/41 "2017-02-17T18:55:58Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > And second, legality isn’t the only thing that should be of interest to the American people. But I don’t think “of interest to the American people” is the correct standard to use in deciding whether it’s appropriate to leak something. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-state/779933/42 "2017-02-17T18:59:37Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > But I don’t think “of interest to the American people” is the correct standard to use in deciding whether it’s appropriate to leak something. What if it’s ‘in the interest’…? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-state/779933/43 "2017-02-17T19:13:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I know this is nitpicking, but weirdly enough [that’s not against the law in NC](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=790673&highlight=bathroom). That’s good to know. Since December, I’ve been waiting for 5.0 to beat down my door because in December I took a whiz in the men’s restroom right outside of Durham. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-state/779933/44 "2017-02-17T19:21:10Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > What if it’s ‘in the interest’…? It’s the same thing. Too subjective. What is or isn’t in the interest of the American people is very commonly subject to great disagreement. The whole point of a democracy is that the people elect the politicians who make decisions as to what’s in the interest of the American people. Not that bureaucrats make these decisions on their own and in opposition to their elected bosses. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-state/779933/45 "2017-02-17T19:48:54Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s the same thing. Too subjective. > > What is or isn’t in the interest of the American people is very commonly subject to great disagreement. The whole point of a democracy is that the people elect the politicians who make decisions as to what’s in the interest of the American people. Not that bureaucrats make these decisions on their own and in opposition to their elected bosses. If all the leak is meant to do is embarrass then you have a point. However, if the leak reveals some corruption or wrong doing then the appropriate authorities will (probably) take action and that is in the public’s interest. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-state/779933/46 "2017-02-17T19:49:29Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s the same thing. Too subjective. So do you think leaks are only defensible if they concern law-breaking? Even if such law-breaking is inconsequential on a practical level? If not, then what standard would you support? Or is your position that leaks are always wrong? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-state/779933/47 "2017-02-17T19:54:32Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s the same thing. Too subjective. > > What is or isn’t in the interest of the American people is very commonly subject to great disagreement. The whole point of a democracy is that the people elect the politicians who make decisions as to what’s in the interest of the American people. Not that bureaucrats make these decisions on their own and in opposition to their elected bosses. Leaks are nothing new. They are safety valves built into a democratic process. Too often they are the public’s only way to monitor what their elected officials are actually doing. In that sense, they are absolutely in the public’s interest. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-state/779933/48 "2017-02-17T23:59:10Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [snip] … The whole point of a democracy is that the people elect the politicians who make decisions as to what’s in the interest of the American people … [snip] Almost but not quite … We the People elect officials to make decisions _on our behalf_ … and We the People tell them what is in the best interests of America … Why do you think We the People can’t handle leaked information … if we learn the Secretary of Labor is secretly enforcing OSHA regulations … we’ll not care one bit … but if we learn Sen. Sorghum is selling military information to the Martians … We the People can force him to stop … but not unless someone leaks the information … Your arguments really depend on the government’s right to keep it’s affairs secret from the public … and in that I think you’re wrong … ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2017, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-state/779933/49 "2017-02-18T03:15:02Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The OP works under the assumption that leaks are a bad thing. They aren’t, usually. Yes, if you leak classified military information of strategic importance, that is bad. But the vast majority of leaks are about people doing things that you don’t think they should be doing. > > If the people are okay with what they are doing, then there’s no problem. It’s only a problem when you have an administration that is doing bad things. And then we want those things to be leaked, since that allows us to stop them. > > That’s democracy. Not blind loyalty to the guy who has been elected. > > In short, if leaking bad things becomes the status quo, we as a nation will only be better, not worse. There are lots of types of leaks and many of them are bad. When the leak is gossip (Priebus and Bannon don’t get along) that isn’t a good leak. It may be an interesting leak, but its gossip. When the leak is a lie, that is also bad. However, other leaks are important and necessary - even if the person leaking the information may be breaking confidentiality or orders to leak it. We wouldn’t know about the My Lai massacre without leaks. We wouldn’t have known about Watergate. Sometimes breaking the law is the ethical and moral thing to do. Only History will tell if these leaks are the right thing to do - but given the nature of the content, I’m willing to grant the benefit of the doubt until History makes its determination. Because a Presidential candidate whose advisers are in close contact with Russian intelligence during the campaign - with evidence that Russian intelligence hacked the DNC and engaged in a propaganda war in favor of said candidate - that is some serious danger to our Democracy. And I happen to like our country. That’s a WAY FUCKING BIGGER DEAL than not having good enough security at our embassy in Benghazi and not acting quickly enough when it was attacked. That’s a WAY FUCKING BIGGER DEAL than keeping a personal email server - which there is no evidence was ever hacked. That’s a WAY FUCKING BIGGER DEAL than getting a blow job from an intern while your wife was upstairs. And - for the sake of non-partisanship - its a WAY FUCKING BIGGER DEAL than the Iran-Contra deal or outing Valarie Plame so you can have get rid of Saddam Hussein. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deep-state/779933.md?page=2)