# Deeper Movie - Matrix or X-Men? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 7, 2003, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570 "2003-05-07T02:30:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![skaterboarder87](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@skaterboarder87](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skaterboarder87)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570/21 "2003-05-07T16:56:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lizard \* > \*\*Fine. The slate is clear. > > \*\* > As Roger Ebert explained in his review of “The Matrix,” the film operates on the _borrowed premises_ of earlier movies like “Dark City”…\*\* THAT’S S DAMN LIE! Dark City was released on 2/27/98, Matrix barely a year later. Are you trying to tell me that the produces of Matrix watched Dark City, wrote the script and filmed it all within a year of Dark City’s release? HAHAHAHAHAHA! Good one. Regardless, while Dark City was a great film, I much preferred Matrix’s presentation. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570/22 "2003-05-07T17:17:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Never had that happen before. You need to get out more. I’ve been in audiences that were clapping for the Star Wars SE trailer, the Empire SE trailer, the ROTJ SE trailer, the Episode I trailer, two different Episode 2 trailers, the X-men trailer, a commercial on reading (during the Episode 2 midnight premeir), and one of the pre-movie slides where Diet Coke won the race of the coke bottles. and the Matrix is about as deep as the kiddie pool. Unfortunately, most americans aren’t as deep as the kiddie pool, so i gotta hear a bunch of crap about how they’ve never thought the world could be fake before. I came up with that thought when i was freakin’ two! ---
**Author:** ![skaterboarder87](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@skaterboarder87](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skaterboarder87)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570/23 "2003-05-07T17:23:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tars Tarkas \* > \*\*and the Matrix is about as deep as the kiddie pool. Unfortunately, most americans aren’t as deep as the kiddie pool, so i gotta hear a bunch of crap about how they’ve never thought the world could be fake before. I came up with that thought when i was freakin’ two! \*\* There are people who wouldn’t consider 2001: A Space Odyssey as “deep”. Does that not make it deep? No, it’s strictly opinion, there’s no need to dance around the issue with analogies. ---
**Author:** ![skaterboarder87](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@skaterboarder87](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skaterboarder87)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570/24 "2003-05-07T17:24:17Z")
Also, I can assure you most movies that are “deep” refer to concepts contrived long before film’s existence. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570/25 "2003-05-07T17:46:26Z")
Calm down, chief. The movie deserves to be mocked for several reasons. 1. The “innovative” action sequences, innovative for anyone who doesn’t watch HK cinema, that is. 2. Slow-mo bullet effects with air ripples. Now in every movie. Thank you matrix for clicheing action movies with your crap. HK has stopped doing the air ripple, maybe Hollywood should follow (but won’t after this makes $100 million on opening weekedn) 3. That damn stop everything and spin the camera trick. It was fun when the GAP did it first. (what’s that you say? The Matrix dudes were doing it first, it just didn’t hit the theater in time? Well, then they LOSE! Just like Star Wars 2 lost the first digital film credit because Jason X finished first.) And now it happens in every movie, also. 4. The world is fake. Whoop de crap. So deep. 5. Humans are a battery. Appariently this battery is requires more energy than it produces, but just ignore that. Because the world is fake and people wear leather. 6 How much time would it take to build a big platform above the clouds to get solar energy? Plus what is the point of retakng the planet when the entire surface is dead because all the plants are dead because there is no sun. 1. If what happened in the Animatrix shorts is true, then humans deserve to be wiped out for what they were doing to the machines. I am now on their side. > [@](#): > > Also, I can assure you most movies that are “deep” refer to concepts contrived long before film’s existence. Yes, but the crust of most Matrix fanboy’s arguements are that the concept is NEW. ---
**Author:** ![skaterboarder87](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@skaterboarder87](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skaterboarder87)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570/26 "2003-05-07T18:00:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Yes, but the crust of most Matrix fanboy’s arguements are that the concept is NEW. \*\* From what I’ve read of the posts in this forum, no one has tried to back that claim. So please leave out whatever stereotypes you’ve fashioned from other sources and only include points which are relevant in this conversation. ---
**Author:** ![sivispacem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b19c9b/32.png) [@sivispacem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sivispacem)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570/27 "2003-05-07T18:06:13Z")
Thanks for gracing us with your presence bub, the point of this thread isn’t to discusses how revolutionary the Matrix is or is not - it’s to compare the possible insights that can be made between it and X-Men. Wow, you’re insightfull, congratualtions, the people who thought the Matrix was sweet are all ignorant sheep, great. You can’t argue with the fact that they’re two highly popular movies with a broad appeal - due in part because they transcend being just run-of-the-mill action flicks - keep your airs to yourself. If you thought they were both stupid, don’t post - or start your own thread about how inane the Matrix was. ---
**Author:** ![skaterboarder87](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@skaterboarder87](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skaterboarder87)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570/28 "2003-05-07T18:15:43Z")
Well said. ---
**Author:** ![sivispacem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b19c9b/32.png) [@sivispacem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sivispacem)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570/29 "2003-05-07T18:54:23Z")
Thanks, skaterboarder - and to get back to the OP, one of the things that struck me most about X2 was how it could be an allegory to the War on Terror, in a way. Does the existance of a possibly threatening group in American society warrant legislation to make them all register with the government? There’s a lot ot be said about the allegory between mutants and immigrants, an issue which has existed since our nation was founded (immigration that is, not mutants - okay except Dennis Rodman). Morepheus’ monologe that’s featured in the first theatrical trailer struck a religious chord, “this is a war, and we are soldiers, what if tomorrow the wold could be over? Isn’t that worth fighting for, isn’t that worth dying for?” And of course that could be applied to the Civil Rights movement and other followings as well. Then even on the smaller level the X2 has the references to coming out of the closet (“it’s a diesase”), Iceman coming home to tell his parents he’s a mutant could easily have been him coming home to tell his folks he’s gay. The Matrix has a multitude of little allusions, Trinity (raise your hand if you’re Catholic), Agent Smith talking about how the first Matrix was perfect before humans ruined it (Eden)… And despite his disdain, Tars hit on another interesting Matrix question - how would humanity deal with AI? ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570/30 "2003-05-07T18:58:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sivispacem \* > \*\*Thanks for gracing us with your presence bub, the point of this thread isn’t to discusses how revolutionary the Matrix is or is not - it’s to compare the possible insights that can be made between it and X-Men. Wow, you’re insightfull, congratualtions, the people who thought the Matrix was sweet are all ignorant sheep, great. > > You can’t argue with the fact that they’re two highly popular movies with a broad appeal - due in part because they transcend being just run-of-the-mill action flicks - keep your airs to yourself. If you thought they were both stupid, don’t post - or start your own thread about how inane the Matrix was. \*\* Wow, the Matrix fanboys get so uptight when the movie flaws get pointed out. For your information, i will be seeing the sequal opening weekend and enjoying it for what it is, a mindless action film. I am allowed to criticise things i like, this is America. pretending that “the world may be fake” is a revolutionary concept and attempting to claim that is deep is folly. I could argue that Last Action Hero was deep because it dealt with characters having to live with choices thrust upon them by writers from an outside world (i.e. Arnold having to deal with the loss of his son because the writers chose for him to die). X-men is much more relavent to current life with it’s inclusion alegories than the what a child comes up with philosophy of the matrix. If you can’t handle criticisms of your precious Matrix, then you shouldn’t have opened a thread that would leave it open to attack. **skaterboarder87** > [@](#): > > From what I’ve read of the posts in this forum, no one has tried to back that claim. So please leave out whatever stereotypes you’ve fashioned from other sources and only include points which are relevant in this conversation The conversation is how the philosphies compare. Part of the comparison of the Matrix Philosophy is i have to listen to random idiots espouse how it is the most shocking concept ever. So it is realevant, deal with it and shut up. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570/31 "2003-05-07T19:03:28Z")
I found _The Matrix_ to be “deeper” than _A Clockwork Orange_, _Memento_, _Bicentennial Man_, _Ghost in the Shell_, and _Pulp Fiction_. I’m not really sure what movies most people consider deep; I’m just giving a few examples from what I’ve seen. _X-Men 2_ was not as high up there, but still alright. I can not think of a single fiction movie I consider deeper than _The Matrix_. However, I can think of a few books and nonfiction films that are, and I have had deeper conversations. I’m not sure why certain people are saying that dark glasses and dark outfits are supposed to be part of the insight. The reason they’re there is so that the people are easier to render. It’s the same reason none of the characters has flowing hair. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570/32 "2003-05-07T19:12:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lizard \* > **But having seen all of the aforementioned movies, it’s hard for me to be slack-jawed with wonderment at “The Matrix.” TRON, after all, came out in 1982, Strange Days in 1995.** Nobody’s expecting you to be slack-jawed with wonderment. I’m not. But claiming you don’t understand why anyone would find it deep is taking it too far. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![sivispacem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b19c9b/32.png) [@sivispacem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sivispacem)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570/33 "2003-05-07T19:14:02Z")
When did I claim the movie was flawless and perfect or new? Of course it’s flawed - but who the hell cares or gets their jollies by pointing out where Hollywood produces a plot with holes in it?? Damn, I’m glad I’m sitting down - the Matrix wasn’t a completely original movie. I’ve been a complete putz for thinking it was rather thoughtfull compared to most action movies, especially considering it’s success. If you don’t have anything nice to say, fist yourself. ---
**Author:** ![MusicJunkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@MusicJunkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MusicJunkie)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570/34 "2003-05-07T21:03:30Z")
> [@](#): > > especially considering it’s success. What the hell does that have to do with anything? ---
**Author:** ![skaterboarder87](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@skaterboarder87](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skaterboarder87)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570/35 "2003-05-07T21:09:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MusicJunkie \* > \*\*What the hell does that have to do with anything? \*\* Perhaps that many “successful” movies are nothing more than popcorn flicks, comedies and chick flicks? ---
**Author:** ![MusicJunkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@MusicJunkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MusicJunkie)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570/36 "2003-05-07T21:34:46Z")
I don’t get it. Really, not being ironic here. That sentence left me confused. More thoughtfull than most action movies is okay with me. Where does success enter the equation? That succesfull movies aren’t thoughtfull or that The Matrix’s thoughtfullness is proved by its success or what? ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570/37 "2003-05-07T21:35:26Z")
My thinking is that while most movies can only take “deep” to 10, Matrix takes it to 11 making it 1 deeper. ---
**Author:** ![sivispacem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b19c9b/32.png) [@sivispacem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sivispacem)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570/38 "2003-05-07T22:25:08Z")
Usually when a movie takes the effort to be “deep,” it’s not met with much success at the box office. Not that it’s success proves its thoughtfullness, but that it’s rare - especially in the action genre - to have a movie that’s thoughtfull and a blockbuster. Take the Terminator - great action movie, lots of fun, lots of success, but not exactly deep or thought provoking. Conversely, look at Gattaca, a very intelligent, thoughtfull movie - but nowhere near as successfull at the Matrix. Same with Memento. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570/39 "2003-05-07T22:29:30Z")
> [@](#): > > If you don’t have anything nice to say, fist yourself. Well, somebody learned something from the matrix, if you don’t like something, shoot it up. Too bad you didn’t catdh the part of X-men where they were talking about accepting people. But i guess that’s what i get for criticizing your running fantasy. Oh, woe is me not understanding the intricacies of the world not being real, only super deep philophers beyond Kant and Aquinas could comprehend such a shocking concept. And it’s making lots of money just proves it is deep. Just like Sweet Home Alabama making money proves it is deep. And City of God is a failure since it didn’t break $100 million. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure why certain people are saying that dark glasses and dark outfits are supposed to be part of the insight. The reason they’re there is so that the people are easier to render. It’s the same reason none of the characters has flowing hair. It looks like they solved that problem with the Albino Milli Vanilli twins. Or at least spent more time on them. Sounds similar to the ESB problems with bluescreens on the Hoth snowgrounds. 🆒 \<— Uh, oh, he’s gone all Matrix on you! ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570/40 "2003-05-07T23:49:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tars Tarkas \* > It looks like they solved [the hair] problem with the Albino Milli Vanilli twins. Or at least spent more time on them. Maybe, but their hair shouldn’t be nearly as hard as realistic long hair, because it looks like they have maybe 100 really thick hairs instead of 50,000 hair-sized ones. And when they’re in ghost mode, it’s supposed to look weird. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/deeper-movie-matrix-or-x-men/173570.md?page=3)