# Defacing the coin of the realm **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919 "2014-05-21T13:36:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bones\_Daley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@Bones\_Daley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bones_Daley)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/1 "2014-05-21T13:36:05Z")
For reasons which are irrelevant, I wanted to drill 6mm holes in the center of some UK 2p coins. Out of sheer curiosity, I phoned the local cop shop to enquire whether it would be legal so to do, and was informed that I would be committing a _ **criminal** _ offence , contravening the Coinage Act of 1971 . Would this be an offence in all countries? How about the US …Canada …Australia …I don’t mean drilling UK 2p coins, I mean drilling holes in the coins of each particular country. I am still going to drill the holes, naturally, but I shall be looking over my shoulder … ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/2 "2014-05-21T13:41:05Z")
Per [the website of the Bureau of Engraving and Printing](http://www.moneyfactory.gov/historicallegislation.html); > [@](#): > > Defacement of currency is a violation of Title 18, Section 333 of the United States Code. Under this provision, currency defacement is generally defined as follows: Whoever mutilates, cuts, disfigures, perforates, unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, Federal Reserve Bank, or Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such item(s) unfit to be reissued, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both. So to answer at least one part of your question, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/3 "2014-05-21T13:42:15Z")
Such things are legal in the US, so long as it’s not done for fraudulent purposes. Do you not have penny-press souvenir machines in the UK? I know I saw them in Ireland (though there, the “pennies” they pressed were 2 cent euro pieces). ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/4 "2014-05-21T13:42:34Z")
nm ninja’d ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/5 "2014-05-21T13:44:20Z")
It’s a federal crime in the US (18 U.S.C. §331) but only if done with intent to defraud. > [@](#): > > We conclude that the ‘fraudulent alteration’ prohibited by § 331 includes any alteration, whether or not affecting the legal tender value or utility of the coin, which is made with intent to defraud the United States, any person or group of persons or organizations > > Barnett v. United States, 384 F.2d 848, 855 (5th Cir. 1967). ETA: **Smapti** , that section refers to _currency_, which is solely a reference to banknotes. The text of the relevant section is basically identical, though. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/6 "2014-05-21T13:45:06Z")
I suspect that most countries take a dim view of defacing their currency. The same rules do not seem to apply to notes though - I often get £5 and £10 notes with all kinds of scribbles on them. I assume that it would not apply to a coin that is no longer legal tender - can’t you find some 2d coins? ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/7 "2014-05-21T13:50:03Z")
> [@Bones\_Daley](#): > > For reasons which are irrelevant, I wanted to drill 6mm holes in the center of some UK 2p coins. > > Would this be an offence in all countries? > > How about the US …Canada …Australia … Illegal in Australia And Illegal in USA , See 18 U.S. Code § 331 - Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/8 "2014-05-21T14:15:02Z")
Are any of these laws extraterritorial? E.g. if a UK citizen travels to the US with UK currency, intending to deface the UK currency _after_ they have arrived in the US, they deface the currency there, then they return to the UK with the defaced currency, have they committed an offense with respect to either country? Iirc US law doesn’t seem to account for defacing foreign (i.e. non-US) currency. E.g. if I, a US citizen, walk into a police station or FBI office here and state that I have been shooting holes in British coins and also used a 10 pound note as toilet paper, they’ll probably be like, “gee, you could have saved it for a trip!” ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/9 "2014-05-21T15:00:58Z")
In Australia, we have [one person](http://www.coincarvery.com/faq.html) who is allowed to deface a limited number of coins. However, none of them are current circulating currency. Something I have wanted for a while is a double headed coin - and for best effect it needs to be a local coin. The entire point is to get people to think about random processes. Especially the question of whether after a run of one result the other side is “overdue”. You play flip the coin, and see how long it takes them to realise the coin is rigged. Then ask them why they realised. But I also realise the coin is illegal ☹ - at least the manufacture of it is. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/10 "2014-05-21T15:05:18Z")
I have a number of pieces of coin jewelry made with circulating U.S. coins. There’s a whole little industry of making cut coin jewelery like [the pieces here](http://www.etsy.com/listing/53789403/pennsylvania-cut-coin-jewelry?utm_source=google&utm_medium=product_listing_promoted&utm_campaign=jewelry_low&gclid=CLGVmeGgvb4CFYMSOgodUHEAbQ). As long as you’re not trying to spend it, or use it to defraud, it’s fine. ---
**Author:** ![JacobSwan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@JacobSwan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JacobSwan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/11 "2014-05-21T15:17:29Z")
This article discusses taking uk coins to France for scrap. [http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1598774/The-perfect-money-making-crime.html](http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1598774/The-perfect-money-making-crime.html) ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/12 "2014-05-21T15:41:05Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > Something I have wanted for a while is a double headed coin - and for best effect it needs to be a local coin. You can find some on eBay > **[DOUBLE SIDED AUSTRALIAN 10 CENT COIN - Same Side Coin Double Head - Double Tail...](https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DOUBLE-SIDED-AUSTRALIAN-10-CENT-COIN-/171002922513?pt=UK_Collectables_MagicTricks_RL&var=&hash=item27d0918611)** > > MADE FROM AUSTRALIAN 10 CENT COINS. Double Sided Coin (Heads / Tails). A precisely crafted coin showing a "Heads" or "Tails" on both sides. When buying from QUICK PICK MAGIC, you are directly buying from the manufacturer! > **[DOUBLE SIDED AUSTRALIAN DOLLAR COIN - SAME SIDE COIN - AUSTRALIAN DOLLAR COIN ...](https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DOUBLE-SIDED-AUSTRALIAN-DOLLAR-COIN-/181097032046?pt=UK_Collectables_MagicTricks_RL&var=&hash=item2a2a39696e)** > > Double Sided Coin (Heads / Tails). A precisely crafted coin showing a "Heads" or "Tails" on both sides. Quick Pick Magic. [http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DOUBLE-SIDED-AUSTRALIAN-20c-CENT-COIN-HEADS-OR-TAILS-HEADED-OR-TAILED-/271186824826?pt=UK\_Collectables\_MagicTricks\_RL&var=&hash=item3f23fe8e7a](http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DOUBLE-SIDED-AUSTRALIAN-20c-CENT-COIN-HEADS-OR-TAILS-HEADED-OR-TAILED-/271186824826?pt=UK_Collectables_MagicTricks_RL&var=&hash=item3f23fe8e7a) [http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DOUBLE-SIDED-AUSTRALIAN-2-DOLLAR-COIN-/181223357038?pt=UK\_Collectables\_MagicTricks\_RL&var=&hash=item2a31c0fa6e](http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DOUBLE-SIDED-AUSTRALIAN-2-DOLLAR-COIN-/181223357038?pt=UK_Collectables_MagicTricks_RL&var=&hash=item2a31c0fa6e) ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/13 "2014-05-21T15:46:43Z")
Here’s the UK legislation: > [@](#): > > Restrictions on melting or breaking of metal coins. > > (1)No person shall, except under the authority of a licence granted by the Treasury, melt down or break up any metal coin which is for the time being current in the United Kingdom or which, having been current there, has at any time after 16th May 1969 ceased to be so. > (2)Any person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be liable— > (a)on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £400; > (b)on conviction on indictment, to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or both. > **[Coinage Act 1971](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/24/section/10)** > > An Act to consolidate, so far as they are part of the law of the United Kingdom, the Coinage Acts 1870 to 1946 and certain other enactments relating to coinage, with amendments to give effect to recommendations of the Law Commission and the Scottish... ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/14 "2014-05-21T15:47:21Z")
I have a friend who uses a sharpie to cover-up “god” on every bill he ever lays his hands on. He lives in Ohio, I’m in western PA, yet I’ve never seen one of his bills. ---
**Author:** ![Bones\_Daley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@Bones\_Daley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bones_Daley)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/15 "2014-05-21T16:45:34Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Such things are legal in the US, so long as it’s not done for fraudulent purposes. > > Do you not have penny-press souvenir machines in the UK? I know I saw them in Ireland (though there, the “pennies” they pressed were 2 cent euro pieces). Good point … since the euro is the official currency of 18 of the EU countries, I would assume that it is perfectly legal to drill holes in Euro coins … what size is a euro 2 cent coin btw ? > [@bob\_2](#): > > I suspect that most countries take a dim view of defacing their currency. The same rules do not seem to apply to notes though - I often get £5 and £10 notes with all kinds of scribbles on them. > > I assume that it would not apply to a coin that is no longer legal tender - can’t you find some 2d coins? I don’t think we ever had 2d coins in the UK , did we ? We had one-penny coins, three-penny coins and six-penny coins, but I don’t recollect a two-penny coin back in the old days. An old penny coin would actually be too big for my purpose …the 2p coin is the perfect size. However, if I can find a Euro coin of approximately the same size I would use that (as long as the coin wasn’t worth more than say 5p in UK currency). ---
**Author:** ![Teuton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/teuton/32/3864_2.png) [@Teuton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teuton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/16 "2014-05-21T16:58:57Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Do you not have penny-press souvenir machines in the UK? Penny press machines (that press actual 1p coins) are entirely legal in the uk. They have previously not been - the piece of legislation that made them illegal was the Coinage Offences Act 1931, which created an offense of “defacing coins”. That act has been replaced by the Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, which contains no such crime. Note that pressing is not “melting or breaking down”. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/17 "2014-05-21T17:03:25Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > … > Do you not have penny-press souvenir machines in the UK? I know I saw them in Ireland (though there, the “pennies” they pressed were 2 cent euro pieces). They are all over the place in the US. I also saw one at a touristy shop in Canada, but, interestingly enough, it had a sign with a picture of Abraham Lincoln on it saying that you had to use a _US_ penny, and if you didn’t have a US penny, please see the clerk. I suspect that the reason was that Canadian pennies were steel and the machine couldn’t handle that, but there also might have been legal issues where they couldn’t officially encourage defacing _Canadian_ coinage, but defacing Yankee money was fine. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/18 "2014-05-21T17:37:25Z")
> [@Bones\_Daley](#): > > I don’t think we ever had 2d coins in the UK , did we ? We had one-penny coins, three-penny coins and six-penny coins, but I don’t recollect a two-penny coin back in the old days. An old penny coin would actually be too big for my purpose …the 2p coin is the perfect size. However, if I can find a Euro coin of approximately the same size I would use that (as long as the coin wasn’t worth more than say 5p in UK currency). There were 2d coins back when, and one of the Maundy money denominations is twopence (and has been since before decimalization) but you’re right in thinking they weren’t exactly common - neither you nor I would have seen one in pocket change. (Maundy money _can_ be spent, but no-one would be so ungracious.) ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/19 "2014-05-21T17:53:28Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > There were 2d coins back when… Hey, he’s got tuppence! ---
**Author:** ![dstarfire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dstarfire/32/5762_2.png) [@dstarfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dstarfire)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/20 "2014-05-21T19:54:48Z")
Yes, it’s almost certain that every country has laws against modifying coins. Coins are (partly) made from precious metals, and the amount each contains is determined for the entire country by the money-printing authority. The design stamped on gov issued coins is a promise that the coin contains x worth of materials. If you drill holes, or slice off an edge (even a tiny bit) without eliminating the design, you’re effectively lying about that coins value. Drilling may seem like it would obviously ruin the design, but a clever fraudster could (relatively) easily refill the holes with a less-valuable metal and retouch the design so it appears to be a legitimate coin, at first glance. And while it’s extremely unlikely that somebody would go to the trouble for a two-penny coin (or even a quarter), and the impact would be near-insignificant, you could still get arrested for it. A police officer, speaking in his/her official capacity should (and usually does) speak about the law (as they know it), not the likelihood of enforcement of a particular law. I bet you can get a decorative version of the coin designed for wearing from the treasury for a small fee. Not only are they authorized to modify the promise implied by a gov seal, they are much better equipped to do things like poking holes in the dead center of a coin without ruining it’s appearance. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919.md?page=2)