# Defacing the coin of the realm **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919 "2014-05-21T13:36:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/21 "2014-05-21T19:56:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Bones Daley** : > > Good point … since the euro is the official currency of 18 of the EU countries, I would assume that it is perfectly legal to drill holes in Euro coins … what size is a euro 2 cent coin btw ? The euro 2 cent coin is almost exactly the same shape and size as the American 1 cent coin, except with a groove around the outer circumference. I don’t know what that translates to in UK currency. ---
**Author:** ![Bones\_Daley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@Bones\_Daley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bones_Daley)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/22 "2014-05-21T22:49:22Z")
> [@dstarfire](#): > > Yes, it’s almost certain that every country has laws against modifying coins. > > _**Coins are (partly) made from precious metals, and the amount each contains is determined for the entire country by the money-printing authority. The design stamped on gov issued coins is a promise that the coin contains x worth of materials.**_ > > If you drill holes, or slice off an edge (even a tiny bit) without eliminating the design, you’re effectively lying about that coins value. Drilling may seem like it would obviously ruin the design, but a clever fraudster could (relatively) easily refill the holes with a less-valuable metal and retouch the design so it appears to be a legitimate coin, at first glance. > > And while it’s extremely unlikely that somebody would go to the trouble for a two-penny coin (or even a quarter), and the impact would be near-insignificant, you could still get arrested for it. A police officer, speaking in his/her official capacity should (and usually does) speak about the law (as they know it), not the likelihood of enforcement of a particular law. > > I bet you can get a decorative version of the coin designed for wearing from the treasury for a small fee. Not only are they authorized to modify the promise implied by a gov seal, they are much better equipped to do things like poking holes in the dead center of a coin without ruining it’s appearance. I totally take on board what you say about a fraudster being able to remove metal from the center of a coin and replacing it with a base metal, but in the UK coinage and also in the Euro coinage, there is no precious metal whatsoever … unless copper, brass, zinc and aluminum are considered precious metals. Obviously if the coin contained gold , or even silver, a criminal intent would be apparent. The reason I asked the question in the first place is that I am in the process of designing, manufacturing and hopefully selling in the very near future, a kinetic toy , the performance of which is enhanced by the placement of small added weights at strategic points. I could of course supply boring old steel washers for the purpose, but I just figured it would be kinda cute , and possibly a selling point, (particularly for overseas sales) to offer 2p coins with the correct size hole drilled in the center . I suspect that the DPP will probably turn a blind eye to my activities, even though they may be technically illegal, as there is obviously no intent to defraud, which is what all the various Coinage Acts were concerned about when they were passed (and rightly so, in the days when coins did actually contain precious metals ) I am thinking I will go ahead and drill the 2p coins , and offer them openly, and see what happens. If I get hung, drawn, and quartered, which is what used to happen to “coiners” in England back in the seventeenth century … well at least I will have achieved some small measure of fame and notoriety … ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/23 "2014-05-22T00:57:25Z")
The US still strikes coins that include precious metals, like [these](http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/american_eagles/?action=american_eagle_gold). Of course, none of our everyday circulation coins contain anything more valuable than copper. ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/24 "2014-05-22T01:44:23Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > The same rules do not seem to apply to notes though - I often get £5 and £10 notes with all kinds of scribbles on them. I see that all the time in the U.S. too–either writing or stamping done on the note. What amount of defacement of a dollar bill is required to make a note no longer legal tender? ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/25 "2014-05-22T02:54:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Such things are legal in the US, so long as it’s not done for fraudulent purposes. > > Do you not have penny-press souvenir machines in the UK? I know I saw them in Ireland (though there, the “pennies” they pressed were 2 cent euro pieces). Yes, I have seen such machines in the UK (though not recently). I have also, in the past, owned coins (openly on sale) that were “defaced” for use in conjuring tricks, such as a “shell penny”: a real penny hollowed out and slightly stretched so it will fit over another, enabling you to turn one penny into two (or vice-versa). Another coin had a hole drilled in it to attach it to a piece of elastic so you could make it disappear, another was stretched into an ellipse, so you could pretend you were able to stretch coins by hand. They were all clearly made from real coins. I am also pretty sure these things were all technically illegal, though. It was just that the law was not very rigorously enforced with respect to occasional defacement of low-value coinage. I suspect the same is true in the United States: it is illegal, but you are unlikely to be prosecuted for it unless you are doing it in large volume, or in connection with some other crime. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/26 "2014-05-22T03:44:45Z")
My boss has a bowl full of [cross pennies](http://crosspennyministries.com/wp-content/uploads/wpsc/product_images/pennies.jpg) on her desk at work. I presume she’s facing a life sentence if security happens to notice it. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/27 "2014-05-22T04:06:47Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I suspect the same is true in the United States: it is illegal, but you are unlikely to be prosecuted for it unless you are doing it in large volume, or in connection with some other crime. Defacing a coin for personal pleasure isn’t even technically illegal in the United States. To be illegal, it has to be done for fraudulent purposes (once, IIRC, there was a guy who painted nickels gold to fool people into thinking they were $5 coins). Also, for pennies and nickels only, it’s illegal to melt them for profit or export them for melting. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/28 "2014-05-22T04:10:32Z")
They may not be concerned with penny presses, but [exporting and/or melting down of nickels and pre-1982 (copper) pennies](http://www.usmint.gov/pressroom/index.cfm?action=press_release&ID=724) is being treated as a real crime apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/29 "2014-05-22T04:26:33Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > They may not be concerned with penny presses, but [exporting and/or melting down of nickels and pre-1982 (copper) pennies](http://www.usmint.gov/pressroom/index.cfm?action=press_release&ID=724) is being treated as a real crime apparently. The regulation [exempts novelty uses](https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2006/12/20/06-9777/prohibition-on-the-exportation-melting-or-treatment-of-5-cent-and-one-cent-coins#p-27): > [@](#): > > The prohibition contained in § 82.1 against the treatment of 5-cent coins and one-cent coins shall not apply to the treatment of these coins for educational, amusement, novelty, jewelry, and similar purposes as long as the volumes treated and the nature of the treatment makes it clear that such treatment is not intended as a means by which to profit solely from the value of the metal content of the coins. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/30 "2014-05-22T10:53:34Z")
When it comes to precious metals - my wife has a very nice gold pendant made from a half sovereign. [http://www.thegoldbullion.co.uk/images/products/king-george-v-gold-half-sovereign.jpg](http://www.thegoldbullion.co.uk/images/products/king-george-v-gold-half-sovereign.jpg) To hang it on a chain, the jeweller made a gold frame for it so that the coin remains undamaged. AFAIK these coins are still legal tender. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/31 "2014-05-22T13:43:38Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > They are all over the place in the US. I also saw one at a touristy shop in Canada, but, interestingly enough, it had a sign with a picture of Abraham Lincoln on it saying that you had to use a _US_ penny, and if you didn’t have a US penny, please see the clerk. I suspect that the reason was that Canadian pennies were steel and the machine couldn’t handle that, but there also might have been legal issues where they couldn’t officially encourage defacing _Canadian_ coinage, but defacing Yankee money was fine. Apparently there is a legal issue. According to Wiki, the coin presses are legal in the US and many other places (the UK repealed a 1936 law making them technically illegal). > **[Elongated coin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elongated_coin#Legality)** > > An elongated coin (also known as a pressed penny or smashed penny) is a coin that has been flattened or stretched, and embossed with a new design. Such coins are often used as commemorative or souvenir tokens, and it is common to find coin elongation machines in tourism hubs, such as museums, amusement parks, and natural or man-made landmarks. > The collecting of elongated coins is a branch of numismatics. Elongated coins are also categorized as exonumia. > The first elongated coins in the United... But: > [@](#): > > In countries where such mutilation is illegal, such as Canada, blank planchets, slugs, or U.S. cents are occasionally used, though this law is often ignored both by the users of the machine and law enforcement. This method is also often used in countries such as Australia, which never had or no longer have a one cent (or equivalent) coin. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919/32 "2014-05-22T15:01:22Z")
Suspect you’d REALLY not want to try it in Thailand. King’s head on it and all. I heard of one guy - a foreign tourist - who dropped a coin on the floor in a Thai bar (so far, so good - accidents happen), but it was spinning on the floor, and out of habit, he stomped on it. Bar owner just told him to get out. Immediately. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defacing-the-coin-of-the-realm/688919.md?page=1)