# Defamation - civil, criminal or both **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 19, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defamation-civil-criminal-or-both/674273 "2013-11-19T17:58:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defamation-civil-criminal-or-both/674273/1 "2013-11-19T17:58:12Z")
Pretty much in the title. If I am defamed or slandered (what’s the difference?), do I sue in civil court, file a complaint with an LEO or DA or both? Note: not an actual case, just a question that came up. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defamation-civil-criminal-or-both/674273/2 "2013-11-19T18:13:39Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Pretty much in the title. If I am defamed or slandered (what’s the difference?), do I sue in civil court, file a complaint with an LEO or DA or both? Note: not an actual case, just a question that came up. I’ve never heard of a criminal law against defamation, so civil it is. Defamation is a broader term that includes both slander and libel. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defamation-civil-criminal-or-both/674273/3 "2013-11-19T18:28:44Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Pretty much in the title. If I am defamed or slandered (what’s the difference?), do I sue in civil court, file a complaint with an LEO or DA or both? Note: not an actual case, just a question that came up. It’s almost always a civil suit. Although some countries (ostensibly listed [here](http://www.article19.org/defamation/map.html), but I can’t vouch for that), have criminal defamation laws. In the US, some states (not many) have criminal defamation laws, but I don’t think they are frequently used. Although, I think I read somewhere that some places are trying to use them to prosecute “revenge porn” posters. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defamation-civil-criminal-or-both/674273/4 "2013-11-19T18:51:17Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Defamation is a broader term that includes both slander and libel. Just to fill in, slander is oral defamation and libel is written (though in some jurisdictions a recording of slander would be deemed libel). The elements are the same in any event. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defamation-civil-criminal-or-both/674273/5 "2013-11-19T19:12:05Z")
In “The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo,” the male protagonist has been convicted of criminal libel. There have been one or two criminal defamation prosecutions in Canada in recent years, I think, although some provinces have stricken the crime as being the Canadian equivalent of unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defamation-civil-criminal-or-both/674273/6 "2013-11-19T19:32:22Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > In “The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo,” the male protagonist has been convicted of criminal libel. > > There have been one or two criminal defamation prosecutions in Canada in recent years, I think, although some provinces have stricken the crime as being the Canadian equivalent of unconstitutional. Sort of. The crime still stands, but the test has been tightened. For example, in [Nfld](http://www.canlii.org/en/nl/nlsctd/doc/2008/2008nltd80/2008nltd80.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAQZGVmYW1hdG9yeSBsaWJlbAAAAAAB)the statue was found to be unconstitutional if the publisher didn’t know of the falsehood. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defamation-civil-criminal-or-both/674273/7 "2013-11-19T19:36:00Z")
There are many criminal defamation statutes in the United States. A common one is so-called “Ag-Gag” laws that make it a crime to defame animal-related facilities in an effort to fight PETA-style protestors. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defamation-civil-criminal-or-both/674273/8 "2013-11-19T19:58:57Z")
Strictly speaking, Ag-Gag laws make it a crime to _enter_ animal-related facilities in order to obtain information with which to defame them. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defamation-civil-criminal-or-both/674273/9 "2013-11-19T20:06:34Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Strictly speaking, Ag-Gag laws make it a crime to _enter_ animal-related facilities in order to obtain information with which to defame them. I had thought they included both laws of the style [conduct] + [intent to criminally defame] as well as laws of the style [defamation] + [relationship to agriculture]. In any event, some states still have generic criminal libel laws under which there are occasional prosecutions. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defamation-civil-criminal-or-both/674273/10 "2013-11-19T20:09:58Z")
Virginia [has](http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-417) a criminal defamation statute, but it only applies to some acts that are commonly considered defamatory. For example, it is specifically criminal to falsely accuse a “female of chaste character” of committing “acts not virtuous and chaste”. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defamation-civil-criminal-or-both/674273/11 "2013-11-19T20:21:54Z")
So since it is civil, there has to be actual damages right. I mean, someone spreading lies is not going to give you standing to sue unless you lose your job or a business deal over it. Or is that a state thing where YMMV and you can collect even without real damages? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defamation-civil-criminal-or-both/674273/12 "2013-11-19T20:33:31Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So since it is civil, there has to be actual damages right. I mean, someone spreading lies is not going to give you standing to sue unless you lose your job or a business deal over it. Or is that a state thing where YMMV and you can collect even without real damages? When it is civil, the damages can be “per se” meaning not requiring additional proof for certain categories of defamation. The other categories require proof of damages of the kind you suggest. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defamation-civil-criminal-or-both/674273/13 "2013-11-19T20:58:10Z")
In short, defamation _per se_ means you said something so horrible that damage to the plaintiff is inevitable. At common law, the usual example was calling a woman a whore. Nowadays, you might have defamation per se if you claimed someone was, say, a rapist. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defamation-civil-criminal-or-both/674273/14 "2013-11-19T21:13:55Z")
So if someone played the race card and in multiple instances called you a racist, would that be defamation per se? What if someone was just going around and calling you a liar or a cheat? Or are those gradations up to the judge? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defamation-civil-criminal-or-both/674273/15 "2013-11-19T21:17:16Z")
The “per se” categories come from English common law, and do not include charges that someone is a racist. They vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but I doubt any include that particular charge unless it was in the context of one of the other categories (like defaming someone’s business). ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defamation-civil-criminal-or-both/674273/16 "2013-11-19T21:39:44Z")
These “per se” categories were on the bar exam: insulting the chastity of a woman, disparaging a person’s business, suggesting he had a “loathsome” disease, or falsely accusing a person of criminal activity. Those are common law definitions that may have been altered in each state. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defamation-civil-criminal-or-both/674273/17 "2013-11-19T23:07:55Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > These “per se” categories were on the bar exam: insulting the chastity of a woman, disparaging a person’s business, suggesting he had a “loathsome” disease, or falsely accusing a person of criminal activity. Those are common law definitions that may have been altered in each state. Some states may have the old common law crime of obscene libel. > **[Obscene libel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obscene_libel)** > > The publication of an obscene libel was an offence under the common law of England. Prior to the abolition by section 1 of the Criminal Law Act 1967 of the distinction between felony and misdemeanour, it was regarded as a misdemeanour. It has been abolished in England and Wales and Northern Ireland. > The existence of this offence was denied by Hawkins; and by Holt, C.J., who said that it was within the jurisdiction of the spiritual courts. > It was an offence under the common law of England and Wa... Criminal courts only punish the action and not repair the damage (unless they order the return of stolen property, since its practical that the court is also deciding the fact… ) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defamation-civil-criminal-or-both/674273/18 "2013-11-19T23:18:44Z")
They could conceivably order restitution. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defamation-civil-criminal-or-both/674273/19 "2013-11-20T03:42:12Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > There have been one or two criminal defamation prosecutions in Canada in recent years, I think, although some provinces have stricken the crime as being the Canadian equivalent of unconstitutional. No, not by the provinces. Criminal law is exclusively a matter of federal jurisdiction. The provinces cannot change the federal law. The federal offence of defamatory libel has been pared back by the Supreme Court of Canada to comply with constitutional requirements. It has also been interpreted by the lower courts, as in the decision of the Newfoundland Supreme Court cited by **Muffin**. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2013, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defamation-civil-criminal-or-both/674273/20 "2013-11-20T07:58:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Just to fill in, slander is oral defamation and libel is written (though in some jurisdictions a recording of slander would be deemed libel). The modern distinction between libel and slander isn’t written vs oral, but permanent format vs transient format. Hence the rule that a recorded oral defamation is libel rather than slander.