# Defence of torture and torturers, really? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 12, 2014, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016 "2014-12-12T10:52:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016/41 "2014-12-12T16:31:20Z")
Page 19 (page 45 of the PDF version). Here’s some reporting on it: [Torture report: CIA interrogations chief was involved in Latin American torture camps](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11286727/Torture-report-CIA-interrogations-chief-was-involved-in-Latin-American-torture-camps.html) ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016/42 "2014-12-12T16:41:45Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > You literally have to go back to the time of Charles I, the man who had a run in with Thomas Fairfax and Oliver Cromwell over his tyrannical rule and claims of divine right, to find a time when torture was last legally permitted in our joint legal tradition. Actually King Charles I abolished the torture instruments in the Tower. Judicial torture was uncommon before the Wars of the Roses, but became common in the Tudor period due to their fights against catholic ‘terrorists’ ( to be fair, it was common everywhere in the Renaissance period ): however\* torturous brutality\* was common in sentencing ( pressing, burning, the public stocks, whipping etc. etc. ) right past the 18th century. Not that this was worse in Britain than in any other part of the world. Until Beccaria’s time punishment was awful everywhere, and until Howard’s time, jails were also. Not that they had a vast proportion of the population in jail. Unlike modern countries. > [@MostlyUseless](#): > > I am not so naive as to think that the US practiced some form of coercive therapy prior to 9/11 in isolated incidents. \*\*_“The precise pain, in the precise place, in the precise amount, for the desired effect.”_ \*\* American teacher Dan Mitrione, sent to instruct the Uruguayans on how to sort out the Tupamaros in the 1970s. \*Things got so bad in Mitrione’s time that the Uruguayan Senate was compelled to undertake an investigation. After a five-month study, the commission concluded unanimously that torture in Uruguay had become a “normal, frequent and habitual occurrence”, inflicted upon Tupamaros as well as others. Among the types of torture the commission’s report made reference to were electric shocks to the genitals, electric needles under the fingernails, burning with cigarettes, the slow compression of the testicles, daily use of psychological torture … “pregnant women were subjected to various brutalities and inhuman treatment” … “certain women were imprisoned with their very young infants and subjected to the same treatment” … \* William Blum - **[Killing Hope](http://williamblum.org/chapters/killing-hope/uruguay)** Mr. Mitrione, assassinated, was given an almost state funeral once returned to Indiana. _Back in Mitrione’s home town of Richmond, Indiana, Secretary of State William Rogers and President Nixon’s son-in-law David Eisenhower attended the funeral for Mitrione, the city’s former police chief. Frank Sinatra and Jerry Lewis came to town to stage a benefit show for Mitrione’s family._ ## Opinions may vary on the delights of watching Messrs Sinatra and Lewis. And right up to WWII American police could be enthusiastic in applying the Third Degree. Interesting: no-one can take away the glory of America in inventing electro-shock torture, starting in the 1910s — one fine old police chief had a god-damned Electrified _Room_ — it tailed off for a bit in the '30s, although sometimes used by the US forces in WWII; but the charge had been passed to the French, who used electro-magnets in their colonies. Apart from an interlude when they taught this to the nazis, who then tried it out in Paris, the French having tortured Vietnamese ‘terrorists’ then handed it, and the problem of Vietnam, over to the Americans. The river had come back to the sea ! And since then to the world abounding. There are many regimes who use electricity. _Amnesty has compiled a list of more than 80 U.S. manufacturers and suppliers of electro-shock weapons and restraints. Amnesty does not allege that any one or another of these companies is involved in the international trade in equipment used in torture. But Amnesty’s report, “Stopping the Torture Trade,” does provide numerous examples of U.S. products being used by torturers overseas, as well as in the United States._ **[Third World Traveller](http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Torture/Torture_Trade.html)** — April 2001 Astute readers may note that April comes before September * * * As preventative medicine: \*The CIA expressed considerable interest in ECT devices. During World War II, a chief CIA psychologist advised John Foster Dulles that “each surviving German over the age of twelve should receive a short course of electroshock treatment to burn out any remaining vestige of Nazism.” \* **[Darius Rejali](http://academic.reed.edu/poli_sci/faculty/rejali/articles/History_of_Electric_Torture.html)** well-known author of _Torture and Democracy_ It is fairly common in American conservative magazines to parse the meaning of torture, and thus excuse it, as in **[The Gitmo Myth and the Torture Canard](http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/the-gitmo-myth-and-the-torture-canard/)** in Commentary, and the devotees of Mrs. Palin; however, others such as The American Conservative denounce it, as here: **[The Irrationality Of Torture](http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/torture-irrationality-tara-mckelvey/)** \*. However, reading _ordinary people_ comments in Kos, Democratic Underground and Alternet scarcely persuades me that the Left condemns torture and cruelty for those who differ. They get very excited. - From the comments of last which I saw this interesting article by Vladimir Bukovsky, who has been a victim of torture: ## \*Indeed, with the exception of the Black Death, torture is the oldest scourge on our planet (hence there are so many conventions against it). Every Russian czar after Peter the Great solemnly abolished torture upon being enthroned, and every time his successor had to abolish it all over again. These czars were hardly bleeding-heart liberals, but long experience in the use of these “interrogation” practices in Russia had taught them that once condoned, torture will destroy their security apparatus. They understood that torture is the professional disease of any investigative machinery. \* \*So, why would democratically elected leaders of the United States ever want to legalize what a succession of Russian monarchs strove to abolish? Why run the risk of unleashing a fury that even Stalin had problems controlling? Why would anyone try to “improve intelligence-gathering capability” by destroying what was left of it? Frustration? Ineptitude? Ignorance? Or, has their friendship with a certain former KGB lieutenant colonel, V. Putin, rubbed off on the American leaders? I have no answer to these questions, but I do know that if Vice President Cheney is right and that some “cruel, inhumane or degrading” (CID) treatment of captives is a necessary tool for winning the war on terrorism, then the war is lost already. \* Washington Post ---- **[Torture’s Long Shadow](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/17/AR2005121700018.html)** ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016/43 "2014-12-12T16:45:37Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > This, +1,000,000. > > The people in my family who’ve been in the military do not support torture. My dad had two tours in Viet Nam; my cousin was sent to Iraq and Afghanistan five times; my cousin’s husband was in the Gulf War. Not one of them has ever said or posted anything to support the use of torture. They are actually all quietly anti-war, because they’ve actually been there and seen stuff the rest of us can’t even contemplate. > > It’s the rah-rah’ers, the rabid “supporters”, not the actual military members, who trumpet the support of torture both IRL and virtually (FB, etc). No doubt because we civilians are unlikely to be captured and tortured by the opposition, ever. > > YMMV, of course. I don’t think it’s quite this simple, unfortunately. Of the guys I served with in the Navy that I’m still in contact with, a significant minority have expressed some variation of the “torture 'em all” philosophy. Many have not, of course, but there are certainly plenty of vets who have no problem with the torture. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016/44 "2014-12-12T16:54:19Z")
Thanks, **Claverhouse**. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016/45 "2014-12-12T16:59:48Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Note that, according to the Senate Report, it was literally the same guy who got in trouble for training Latin American death squads that was tapped to run the torture program. > [@elucidator](#): > > Not that I doubt you, but can you cite that? > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Page 19 (page 45 of the PDF version). > > Here’s some reporting on it: [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11286727/Torture-report-CIA-interrogations-chief-was-involved-in-Latin-American-torture-camps.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11286727/Torture-report-CIA-interrogations-chief-was-involved-in-Latin-American-torture-camps.html) From near the end of that article: > [@](#): > > The report is too heavily redacted to determine whether this is the same officer who was selected to head the interrogation programme in 2002. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016/46 "2014-12-12T17:06:23Z")
And for all of **magellan’s** handwringing about the damage Reid has done to the nation by allowing the report’s release, he continues to, as an American, defend the torture. He clearly cares nothing about damaging the country, because if he did, HE WOULD STOP DEFENDING TORTURE AS AN AMERICAN. Truly repulsive. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016/47 "2014-12-12T17:07:10Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > From near the end of that article: That’s an odd thing to write. If you read the report it doesn’t seem ambiguous at all that they’re talking about the same guy. If there is ambiguity because of the redactions, it would be about whether the training was for who the CIA was also involved with. So there’s some inferences to be made but I don’t think it’s about the identity of the guy. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016/48 "2014-12-12T17:40:11Z")
I think the just world fallacy really does explain the vast majority of defenses of torture, police brutality, drone strikes, etc. It happened to them, therefore they deserved it. It didn’t happen to me because I don’t deserve it. People get what they deserve. > [@Anaamika](#): > > And the other thing that is rarely mentioned is what it does to the torturer. Torturing makes monsters on both sides. Yes, I am sure some people already came to the plate monsters - these are not the kinds of people we want to put in charge of the waterboarding. But we don’t want to put regular people who aren’t bad in charge of it either! I just don’t believe you can torture people day in and day out, have them in your power, and not be irrevocably damaged as a human being. This is always the first thing I think of when people chortle about someone getting raped in prison. Tee hee! You’re going to get raped! Then you’ll suffer! Except, who is supposed to be doing the raping? A guard? That’s super, having a guard rape people. Another prisoner? Oh, yeah, let’s put people in prison so that they can rape people. It’s as if people think [this cartoon](http://cafehayek.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/miracle_cartoon.jpg) shows torture/prison rape, only instead of “Then a miracle occurs” it’s “Then torture happens.” Yet another reason to avoid too much passive voice. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016/49 "2014-12-12T17:56:51Z")
American conservatism right now is an ugly blight on the political spectrum, no different than when tribes of cavemen banded together against those other cavemen from over the ridge. Everything is life and death, nothing can be compromised, the stupid are given veneration and power simply because they say things that make other stupid people feel better They are actually more afraid of losing face than being tortured or supporting torture. Everything is about winning elections for them, nothing comes in the way of that. So they can torture and kill and oppress some more. If the Democratic party ever got that bad, I’d just tell them to give up and let the other guys have power, but they will never be as bad as the GOP right now. No surprise when you have a party full of racist fundamentalists America’s history and culture is a mitigating factor on the craziness, but just look at those pastors who wrote the Kill the Gays bill in Uganda to see what it would be like if these people had no restrictions. They are as bad as medieval inquisitors ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016/50 "2014-12-12T18:04:17Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > They are actually more afraid of losing face than being tortured I don’t think this is accurate. It’s true they are not afraid of being tortured, but not because they wouldn’t fear torture, simply because they do not think it will happen to them. And most of the time, they are right. If faced with a credible threat of torture, they, and the majority of the rest of us, would not hesitate to lose face. It’s just that the threat of torture for most people chirping on a message board, or on TV, or in the Senate is not credible. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016/51 "2014-12-12T18:06:14Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > In 2014 some people are surprised that people hold such views. That’s surprising. Yes, it is. Im pretty sure that if I had predicted that the USA would detain people without due process, use torture, etc… when I joined the board, I would have been laughed out of the thread. Essentially everybody (except say, people like **Der Trihs** ) would have stated that such a thing couldn’t happen in the USA. In fact, it’s not so much that I’m surprised that some people would support torture but rather that it became an acceptable view in the USA, supported by many, if not the majority. A mainstream position in this country. And on this board. Imagine that instead I’m predicting now that in 2025, the US government will censor medias, and forbid political parties deemed unpatriotic. And that not only it turns out to be true, but also that American people in general and posters on this board in particular become supportive of it. That’s more or less my level of surprise re Guantanamo and torture. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016/52 "2014-12-12T18:14:50Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > I think that you’re all being too hard on them. > > Put a hot branding iron in their hands and tell them to poke the bound terrorist and I bet 99.9% wouldn’t do it. Unfortunately, I don’t believe it at all. Nazi Germany, The Red Khmer regime, the Yugoslavia war, the Rwanda genocide, etc… are my cites. _A lot_ of people will willingly torture and kill if authorities sell them on the idea. We’re ony safe as long as society utterly reject this kind of behaviour as undefensible. It’s not anymore the case. Feeling reassured that the cause is just and that they’re backed by the authorities and a large part of the public opinion, people _will_ torture. Do you think they found the recent torturers amongst the psychopats detained in mental institutions? ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016/53 "2014-12-12T18:20:07Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > **Terr** makes me physically sick. The display in that thread is fucking disgusting. And that’s saying something coming from you! ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016/54 "2014-12-12T18:21:59Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > This is always the first thing I think of when people chortle about someone getting raped in prison. Tee hee! You’re going to get raped! Then you’ll suffer! > > Except, who is supposed to be doing the raping? A guard? That’s super, having a guard rape people. Another prisoner? Oh, yeah, let’s put people in prison so that they can rape people. And for some reason, they completely forget that if it were true, it could be the guy in question that will _do_ the raping, rather than being subjected to it. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016/55 "2014-12-12T18:25:17Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > I’ve seen few people in this current argument who don’t treat the idea of information extraction as the major motivator in our (or any) government’s use of torture. I think even Torquemada knew that’s never been the reason. > > Torture is what governments do to repress a belief or practice they’ve deemed to be a threat to the state. The targets of torture are not the individual victims, but the class or subset of people they represent. Even when torture has been used to extract confessions, these are also targeted at the larger group. Torture and the products of torture send a message of mastery from the state to the target group: _you are subject to our will and any time we wish we can own your body and your mind_ > > And if that message happens to broadcast more widely outside of the target group, so much the better as far as a repressive state is concerned. That’s why the Bushies used torture, and that’s why the true believers like Cheney were and are open and unapologetic about it. Because torture doesn’t work if it’s practiced in secret. It was the Bush administration’s message to militant Islam and more broadly to the entire Muslim world. > > Unlike some of our citizens, the Bushies were (IMO) not so stupid as to believe the smokescreen of “ticking time bomb” scenarios or the general value of intelligence gleaned from coercive interrogation. _It was worse than that._ They were stupid enough (or evil, venal and shortsighted enough) to believe the US is so “exceptional” that we can do these things and bear the blowback with little consequence. > > The blood on our hands can be washed right off, and really who can see the stains on our souls? I enjoy some good healthy cynicism as much as the next guy, but I don’t think you’re making sense at all. So all the torturing that was done, including waterboarding KSM 125 times, was NOT to extract information but purely to intimidate some unspecified subset of the Muslim world? And it was kinda sorta kept secret but kinda not? Or something? I’m sure that the CIA et al were more willing to torture brown people with turbans than they would have been had the terrorists all been Swedish or something, but to claim that information gathering wasn’t relevant and all and it was purely motivated by some kind of sadism and racial intimidation just doesn’t seem plausible. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016/56 "2014-12-12T18:28:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think it’s quite this simple, unfortunately. Of the guys I served with in the Navy that I’m still in contact with, a significant minority have expressed some variation of the “torture 'em all” philosophy. Many have not, of course, but there are certainly plenty of vets who have no problem with the torture. Well, I have to concede my idea, then. 🙂 My contact with vets is pretty limited to family members. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016/57 "2014-12-12T19:29:31Z")
When people say it’s not in our national character to torture I wonder how much they’re whistling past the graveyard or whether they’re confusing aspirations with reality. There won’t be a truth and reconciliation movement. Torture is defacto legal as long as the right people say it’s OK. The U.S. has tortured before, not just recently but several times over its history. This same stuff was rigorously defended only a couple years ago. And not just by security state representatives or the corporate media (but I repeat myself). Plenty of “normal people” love this stuff. Back then I remember it being more about glow sticks up butts, not so much the local cuisine, and some guy died from chest compression instead of hypothermia – same difference. Finding defenders of outrageous authoritarian behavior is easy; if anything, finding critics of it is what’s hard, outside of uber liberal or civil libertarian circles. I don’t know what the polls are like after this latest report but most Americans have been generally lukewarm about it. I don’t imagine they’ve changed their minds much. The partisan flavor of the debate is annoying, given how complicit the Dems are in advancing the security state’s goals on all levels. They’re more effective than the Republicans because so many so libs don’t criticize them. Would anyone be really surprised if it turns out Obama didn’t stop the program at all like he pinkie swore, just hid it better than the Bush administration? Just need the next Manning or Snowden to steal the torture files. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016/58 "2014-12-12T19:40:12Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > When people say it’s not in our national character to torture I wonder how much they’re whistling past the graveyard or whether they’re confusing aspirations with reality. I agree. Not to excuse anything, but the US isn’t the shining beacon of freedom we often like to think we are, and we never were, either. Listen to the stories soldiers and marines tell of what they did in WWII (which was the GOOD war) about shooting “Japs” instead of taking them prisoner. We saw horrible things done in Vietnam. We had virtually an apartheid state in most of the south until just a few decades ago. We put thousands of US citizens in concentration camps because they happen to have Japanese heritage. Sure, the US has often looked like a better place than much of the rest of the world, but that didn’t make us some pure and holy place untouched by all the bad shit in the world. We have 2% of the world population, use 25% of the energy and have 25% of the prisoners. And I’m still not at all happy with the new “Drone War” that Obama is so fond of. We are big and rich and powerful, often good and benevolent, but we can damn sure be the Evil Empire, too, when we want. And we seem to be taking on that role more and more as time goes on. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016/59 "2014-12-12T19:44:45Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > When people say it’s not in our national character to torture I wonder how much they’re whistling past the graveyard or whether they’re confusing aspirations with reality. There won’t be a truth and reconciliation movement. Torture is defacto legal as long as the right people say it’s OK. The U.S. has tortured before, not just recently but several times over its history. This same stuff was rigorously defended only a couple years ago. And not just by security state representatives or the corporate media (but I repeat myself). Plenty of “normal people” love this stuff. That awful things happen no one disputes. It is something else entirely though to defend those awful things and to go to bat for their continuation. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016/60 "2014-12-12T20:07:08Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > That awful things happen no one disputes. It is something else entirely though to defend those awful things and to go to bat for their continuation. I think you’re missing an important point. There seems to be a certain amount of “this isn’t the kind of country we are” sentiment around, and that’s not really true. Yes, it’s different from condoning torture, but it’s still an important issue to understand. It reminds me of when people do things they regret, and then say “That’s not the kid of person I am”. Well, yeah it IS the kind of person you are because YOU DID IT. It may not be the kind of person you WISH you were, and maybe you will someday become the kind of person who doesn’t do that. But right now, you are that person. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016.md?page=4)