# Defend a Conservative in Some Way: FOR SHAME **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 2, 2019, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-a-conservative-in-some-way-for-shame/844256 "2019-12-02T00:58:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-a-conservative-in-some-way-for-shame/844256/1 "2019-12-02T00:58:57Z")
Here’s a fun idea, though: once in a while, if something occurs to you that might actually criticize a liberal or defend a conservative, post it in a thread like this. See how quickly people ignore what you wrote and start putting words in your mouth and making silly assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-a-conservative-in-some-way-for-shame/844256/2 "2019-12-02T01:06:50Z")
Here’s an idea; Don’t try defending Trump with a nutty hypothetical that requires a multi-faceted complex series of assumptions, and then get all pissy when the flaws in your assumptions are pointed out. Even though you are just asking questions. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-a-conservative-in-some-way-for-shame/844256/3 "2019-12-02T01:17:37Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Here’s an idea; Don’t try defending Trump with a nutty hypothetical that requires a multi-faceted complex series of assumptions, and then get all pissy when the flaws in your assumptions are pointed out. > > Even though you are just asking questions. Mods, I meant to flesh this out, and did not realize I posted it. My mistake :smack:, if you wouldn’t mind deleting it. Or leave it up. I’m cool either way. But I probably won’t respond much, since I wanted to make my point more fully with examples and such. My apologies for the extra work, should you decide to take it down. EP: Saying something that might not buy into every single detail of an otherwise justified attack on Trump is not necessarily defending him. And if you aren’t smart enough to understand a multi-faceted set of assumptions, maybe you should just post in another forum, and stay out of arguments in Elections and Great Debates. And if you are referring to my supposition that Trump might not have originated the Biden stuff, only one person bothered to address it directly. Otherwise, no one pointed out shit. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-a-conservative-in-some-way-for-shame/844256/4 "2019-12-02T01:27:21Z")
And what is it with some people, that their pathetic little minds can’t handle a simple idea that not everything the media says about Trump is necessarily true when they are attacking him? But I am quite serious about my OP. Try it. TRY IT, MOTHERFUCKERS, IF YOU DARE!!! You will see very quickly what I’m talking about. But for some reason, I’ll bet none of you lily-livered cowards will have the guts to do so. Wouldn’t want to lose any street cred, now would we? And this is most important: refrain from making such statements as “Let me play devil’s advocate for a moment”, or otherwise making it oh so fucking clear that you of course aren’t really serious about whatever you try to defend. I know this will be difficult, and the idea that someone might think you are a die-hard Trump supporter even for one fucking second is terrifying to you. And now, the really important part: people _most definitely_ will assume this, so do not take my suggestion seriously if you can’t handle it. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-a-conservative-in-some-way-for-shame/844256/5 "2019-12-02T01:42:17Z")
EP: My apologies for implying you aren’t smart. I’m sure you are. But I did not get “pissy”, despite what you say. I defended myself calmly, but no one wanted to bother to listen. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-a-conservative-in-some-way-for-shame/844256/6 "2019-12-02T01:52:34Z")
You seem to be saying in that other thread that there’s a reasonable chance that further information will reveal that Trump did not hold up aid to Ukraine in order to get dirt on a political opponent. That’s entering flat earth territory. Especially after Mick Mulvaney held a press conference to say that’s exactly what happened. Now, you’re turning this into a blame-game of mean libs or the mainstream media being out to get you. Did I wander into a Facebook anti-vaxx group? ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-a-conservative-in-some-way-for-shame/844256/7 "2019-12-02T01:54:35Z")
Are you a newb in NYC , **Fiddle**? Trump has been a corrupt racist adulterer scumbag for decades and nearly all New Yorkers know it. Sure, I can defend some conservatives and condemn some liberals. Not a problem at all. Trump is irredeemable trash, though. There can be no rehabilitation, even if the Dow Jones hits 50,000. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-a-conservative-in-some-way-for-shame/844256/8 "2019-12-02T02:17:23Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You seem to be saying in that other thread that there’s a reasonable chance that further information will reveal that Trump did not hold up aid to Ukraine in order to get dirt on a political opponent. > > That’s entering flat earth territory. Especially after Mick Mulvaney held a press conference to say that’s exactly what happened. > > Now, you’re turning this into a blame-game of mean libs or the mainstream media being out to get you. Did I wander into a Facebook anti-vaxx group? I truly have no idea why you would think that is what I was getting at. It would have been nice of you to respond in that thread, though. No offense as of now, but I’m not interested in discussing it anymore. No one wanted to discuss it over there, so why would it be any different in the Pit? I have posted similarly in other threads, and every single fucking time, the same thing happens. For years, I did what most people do here, argue the viewpoint of my political affiliation. That is of course fine. But one day, it was either the Clinton vs Obama contest for the nomination, or Clinton vs Trump, I made a minor criticism of Clinton. You would have thought I claimed she murders puppies or something. The next time it occurred to me to do something in a similar vein, I paused for a moment. What’s the use, I thought. The same thing will happen, so why bother? But then I decided it must have been an aberration, and also, why let the thoughtless replies of others decide for me what to post? So I went ahead with the same result. I want to make it clear that I’m not saying no one ever takes up the discussion. Many do, but the number of utterly false statements about what I supposedly said or implied goes up dramatically. I shudder to think what a newbie to the Dope would think if in their first post, they made an honest attempt to argue a viewpoint that was demonstrably false, but made it out of ignorance, and then they got the type of replies I’m used to by now. I can’t think of a better way to drive people away from the Dope. **I’ve thought about making a post like this for quite a while now, so Mods, please do not take this down, and if you don’t mind, change “SH” in the title to “SHAME!!!”.** All I’m saying is, when someone makes a statement that you Dopers don’t agree with, at least take one fucking post, preferably the FIRST one, to tell them why you think they are wrong. At least do that. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-a-conservative-in-some-way-for-shame/844256/9 "2019-12-02T02:39:51Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Are you a newb in NYC , **Fiddle**? Trump has been a corrupt racist adulterer scumbag for decades and nearly all New Yorkers know it. Sure, I can defend some conservatives and condemn some liberals. Not a problem at all. Trump is irredeemable trash, though. There can be no rehabilitation, even if the Dow Jones hits 50,000. New Yorker since 1991. Fair enough, but that’s not the point. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-a-conservative-in-some-way-for-shame/844256/10 "2019-12-02T02:39:51Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You seem to be saying in that other thread that there’s a reasonable chance that further information will reveal that Trump did not hold up aid to Ukraine in order to get dirt on a political opponent. I don’t think that’s what he’s saying at all. I think he’s just trying to describe some hypothetical scenario where Trump’s motivations weren’t as bad as they probably are. I get what he was saying (and just ignored it) but he’s right in that however many people who engaged with him seemed not to understand the bizarre tightrope he was trying to walk and so it went back and forth until someone was just like, “Why are we even entertaining this? It’s pointless.” Which is also true. There **Fiddle Peghead** , someone defended you. Sort of. > [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > I have posted similarly in other threads, and every single fucking time, the same thing happens. For years, I did what most people do here, argue the viewpoint of my political affiliation. That is of course fine. But one day, it was either the Clinton vs Obama contest for the nomination, or Clinton vs Trump, I made a minor criticism of Clinton. You would have thought I claimed she murders puppies or something. The next time it occurred to me to do something in a similar vein, I paused for a moment. What’s the use, I thought. The same thing will happen, so why bother? But then I decided it must have been an aberration, and also, why let the thoughtless replies of others decide for me what to post? So I went ahead with the same result. Certainly there’s some truth to what you’re saying. I’ve said on this board before that while I pride myself on trying real hard not to be biased, in that I objectively try to understand the facts about an issue, where my bias invariably shows through is in the posts I don’t make. While I don’t mean to imply a false equivalency between the crackpottery of the left and the right (see what I did there, having to precede my argument here with a preemptive rebuttal of what I know people would otherwise jump on me for is exactly the sort of thing you’re talking about), there’s a lot of BS that I just let slide because “it’s not my fight.” E.g., people who claim that Trump is a KGB asset or that he went to Russia in the 80s and has been working for Putin ever since, stuff like that. It’s crackpottery but I don’t care enough to say anything about it, and a good part of that is because it’s “my side” saying it. In this regard, I understand the frustration of conservative posters on this board. At the same time, my limited sympathy for their plight only goes so far considering some of the positions, platforms, candidates, and events that they choose to defend, despite their being no requirement for them to do so. As Blank Slate implies above, if you roll around with a pig like Trump, you’re gonna get dirty. ---
**Author:** ![str8cashhomie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7cd45c/32.png) [@str8cashhomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/str8cashhomie)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-a-conservative-in-some-way-for-shame/844256/11 "2019-12-02T02:59:33Z")
So if someone takes what you’re saying as an argument for why Trump isn’t guilty, they’re twisting your words, but if they just take it as a hypothetical that isn’t actually relevant to whether Trump is guilty, they’re ignoring what you’re trying to say? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-a-conservative-in-some-way-for-shame/844256/12 "2019-12-02T03:07:09Z")
Either way, he’s gonna climb up on that cross and pout. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-a-conservative-in-some-way-for-shame/844256/13 "2019-12-02T03:47:12Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > I truly have no idea why you would think that is what I was getting at. Then you should be trying to figure out why. You can’t know if the problem is with them or your communication style if you don’t try to understand why someone has misunderstood you. From this thread, you appear to be saying that some of what the mainstream media is saying about Trump is false. Thing is, these mainstream media outlets have decades of history of reporting the truth. It’s how they remained news sources. Even when they make a mistake, they report on the mistake. So it’s up to you to provide evidence that a specific statement is false. There’s no reason to entertain any hypothetical about the news being false without that. The reason to consider a hypothetical in a political conversation is that they reflect on something possibly factual. Claiming it’s “just a hypothetical” is a common technique of people who are trying to put forth an idea that people would otherwise dismiss as incorrect. You claim it’s a hypothetical, get them to agree with your hypothetical, then reveal that the hypothetical was true all along. In other words, it’s a “gotcha.” People in political conversations are hyperaware of the potential of gotchas, and will try to avoid falling into them. As such, things that look like gotchas are a poor way to argue. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-a-conservative-in-some-way-for-shame/844256/14 "2019-12-02T04:09:46Z")
Been there. Done that. When Trump said that he was planning a major infrastructure program, I went on record supporting the program and supporting him for proposing it. I was not ignored or attacked. Nobody put words in my mouth or made silly assumptions about me or what I wrote. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-a-conservative-in-some-way-for-shame/844256/15 "2019-12-02T04:20:08Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > **I’ve thought about making a post like this for quite a while now, so Mods, please do not take this down, and if you don’t mind, change “SH” in the title to “SHAME!!!”.** All I’m saying is, when someone makes a statement that you Dopers don’t agree with, at least take one fucking post, preferably the FIRST one, to tell them why you think they are wrong. At least do that. What does “SH” mean? Who is it? Steven Hawking? Why defend a conservative for him? Or is it someone else? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-a-conservative-in-some-way-for-shame/844256/16 "2019-12-02T04:42:27Z")
Is there a motherfucking link for whatever you motherfuckers are fucking talking about? ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-a-conservative-in-some-way-for-shame/844256/17 "2019-12-02T04:59:47Z")
Sealioning begins at post 5754 [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=882607&page=116](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=882607&page=116) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-a-conservative-in-some-way-for-shame/844256/18 "2019-12-02T06:05:22Z")
Looking at that link, it appears that you came up with a hypothetical that you did not think through, and want us to consider it even though no one involved has made such a claim. And you did make it clear until several posts later that you do actually support Trump being impeached, and think that the scenario you gave is unlikely. My response to that/advice is threefold: [ol] [li]DON’T POST SHIT WITHOUT THINKING. You will be called on it when it turns out it is poorly thought out. [/li][li]Don’t make up excuses for someone who is being accused. If they can’t come up with it, then it obviously isn’t the truth. The truth is the easiest explanation to come up with.[/li][li]When saying something that may make it look like you are defending the opposition, be sure to include a disclaimer. [/li][/ol] If you instead give a well thought out post that uses what the accused has actually said, along with a disclaimer about how you want Trump gone from office, too, but can’t dismiss the idea outright–if you did that, I’m confident you’d get a completely different response. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-a-conservative-in-some-way-for-shame/844256/19 "2019-12-02T07:15:04Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Either way, he’s gonna climb up on that cross and pout. This. The repeated “qualifications” and “clarifications” when called on something so blatantly false as “the House isn’t DOING ANYTHING about people ignoring subpoenas” alone is fucking pathetic. The latest? “But I was talking about while the hearings were going on!” Like has been pointed out: they still are. OP got called on his shit and cranked up the persecution complex to whinge about being called on his shit. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-a-conservative-in-some-way-for-shame/844256/20 "2019-12-02T12:13:18Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > Sealioning begins at post 5754 > > [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=882607&page=116](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=882607&page=116) > [@The Trump Impeachment Inquiry](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-impeachment-inquiry/840771/5755): > > Suppose, just suppose, that after hearing about this, Trump sees a way to actually do something as president, and it’s based on the one thing he measures his worth by: money. He demands a hold be put on the aid until he can look into it, and being the master of the art of the deal, can then decide whether it’s a good idea and makes sense for the U.S. Ok, let’s suppose this. > [@](#): > > Only after this does Giuliani come to Trump with his master plan to take down Biden. Trump thinks, why the hell not, Imma gonna let you finish, but “it’s an abuse of the Office of the President” is why the hell not. > [@](#): > > and then has his call with Zelensky. He is both truly concerned about a corrupt (in his head) Ukraine maybe getting aid it doesn’t deserve, _and_ now interested in political advantage that can be gained with the whole Biden thing. > > A key thing here is when did Giuliani go to Trump with the Biden angle? If it was before Trump heard about the aid, then that delivers a huge blow to the above. Ah, but what if it was after?! Actually, the key thing isn’t when Giuliani invented this idea, or whether he invented this idea, the key thing is whether Trump made millions of dollars of military aid be contingent upon a foreign country taking down his political opponent. It’s not a hard concept. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-a-conservative-in-some-way-for-shame/844256.md?page=2)