# Defend foxhunting here. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2005, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586 "2005-02-17T19:22:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![EsotericEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e274bd/32.png) [@EsotericEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EsotericEnigma)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586/41 "2005-02-17T23:51:50Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > Animals being killed for meat is a necesity. Animals being killed for sport is completely unnecesary, so it shouldn’t be part of modern society. So only completely necessary things should be a part of modern society? ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586/42 "2005-02-17T23:52:05Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Absolute shit. An absolute majority opposes fox-hunting in rural and urban areas alike. It’s a minority pursuit _and always has been_. [http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk\_news/politics/4270475.stm](http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4270475.stm) Fortunately, there is a rather large gap between reality and your world view. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586/43 "2005-02-17T23:55:07Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > As I already said to others, I am not saying any specific alternative is ok while the hunting is not. I would be against all forms of needless cruelty to animals. > > I justified the mass-market killing of animals for food for society, as it would be unfeasable to halt it. I did not justify small-time killing on the basis that it can be for food. I stated that if fishing is done for sport and not food then I am against it. I implied that if a tradition (eskimo fishing, in a different country) is also mostly neccesary for food, then it is acceptable. If killing (fishing) for sport has the mere advantage of a meal then I am against it on principle. > > I have also stated that my outrage is not at the sport itself (I said I would not care enough to pit it alone) but the overwhelming fuss made _against_ the ban without a sound cause. The cause being that it is a tradition and a source of fun (bloodlust) and that population control is a convenient side effect of the true driving force. This is not sound justification for such rabid protest. > > It is an irrational clinging to tradition. Again, it is not sadism that motivates foxhunts. You may as well call deer hunters, or fishermen sadists. It is a tradition, a way of life. As it stands, foxhunting is probably less harmful to the environment than any other hunting sport. [The scots](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4027461.stm) have already tried to ban foxhunting, and the fox population is far worse for it. Again, you seem rather dismissive of tradition. As you admit, foxes are vermin. Even if the fox population is not out of control (and since so few foxes are killed on foxhunts, it can hardly be justified as a major population control measure), it remains that they pose a problem for [urban chicken owners](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3714733.stm), [Cat and dog owners](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1525177.stm), [and even a vector for foot and mouth disease](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1196189.stm). Since you are against deer hunting and fishing as well, I have nothing to say. It certainly is up to you to decide that all killing of animals for anything other than food is wrong. However, if you can obtain any good out of killing vermin (male bonding, maintaining tradtion, many many jobs created, preservation of natural landscape), why not? Why exactly is this manner of killing animals so repugnant, especially since the animal will be killed in other possibly more gruesome ways? It doesn’t really matter to me, but to hear you protesting against foxhunting seems to be like protesting cockroach hunting. That, and the fact that you are so dismissive of what happens to be the least harmful of all hunting sports, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Would you protest cockroach hunting? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586/44 "2005-02-17T23:56:44Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > [BBC NEWS | UK | Politics | Hunt ban support is 'in decline'](http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4270475.stm) > > Fortunately, there is a rather large gap between reality and your world view. OK, so my last comment was rash…but a tiny support in rural areas, and a huge opposition in rural area, hardly is an endorsement?! And as for the political angle: ‘Hunting ban support in decline’ - well, durrrrr, it’s become law, of course it’s not as important a topic :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Bula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bula)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586/45 "2005-02-17T23:59:51Z")
> [@EsotericEnigma](#): > > So only completely necessary things should be a part of modern society? When a practice that is completely unnecessary causes harm to a living organism then there is a strong case for it not being part of modern society ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586/46 "2005-02-18T00:00:47Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > OK, so my last comment was rash…but a tiny support in rural areas, and a huge opposition in rural area, hardly is an endorsement?! > > And as for the political angle: ‘Hunting ban support in decline’ - well, durrrrr, it’s become law, of course it’s not as important a topic :rolleyes: The survey was conducted in 2001. The hunting ban was not in effect then. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586/47 "2005-02-18T00:03:27Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > Again, it is not sadism that motivates foxhunts. You may as well call deer hunters, or fishermen sadists. It is a tradition, a way of life. Shut up. It’s a way of life for a minority. I’ll fish for fish I can eat. I don’t do it if all I’m going to do is throw them back. > [@](#): > > Again, you seem rather dismissive of … I’m sorry for cutting you off, but you quoted random links to unrelated sites. Not a good tactic. If you want to talk about the specific health risks associated with urban foxes, I’d be happy. But I doubt a bunch of guys on horses could solve the problem. > [@](#): > > Would you protest cockroach hunting? Give me three-inch roach-hounds, which can pursue the roach for hours, and I’ll let you know. ---
**Author:** ![Bula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Bula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bula)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586/48 "2005-02-18T00:11:40Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > However, if you can obtain any good out of killing vermin (male bonding, maintaining tradtion, many many jobs created, preservation of natural landscape), why not? Which of those benefits would be lost if they engaged in drag hunting instead? The only possible loss to their “enjoyment” I can see is that they don’t get to kill an animal at the end of it. Excuse me if I don’t feel too sorry for them. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586/49 "2005-02-18T00:12:30Z")
> [@Bula!](#): > > When a practice that is completely unnecessary causes harm to a living organism then there is a strong case for it not being part of modern society Again, they would be killed in other, possibly less humane ways. Snares/Poison. Again, it’s not a ban on hunting, it’s a ban on hunting WITH DOGS. Please don’t get confused and think that the foxes will live happily bouncing around and killing farmer Brown’s chickens and lambs. ---
**Author:** ![Midaro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Midaro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Midaro)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586/50 "2005-02-18T00:18:00Z")
This whole anti-fox hunting thing is entirely alien to me. Here in Australia we shoot the things until we run out of bullets. I must of killed 100s, not to mention rabbits, cats (if it hasn’t got a license tag…), dogs (gone feral), pigs, goats… Here, these animals are exotic creatures that kill or displace our native wildlife and destroy ecosystems. In the past we’ve even had government sponsored bounties for foxes ($10 per tail), and hunts are arranged betweem the Sporting Shooters Association Australia and the Commonwealth Department of Conservation. I wonder how much of the opposition to fox hunting is dervied from the faux-aristrocratic wankers that do it, rather than the end result. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586/51 "2005-02-18T00:21:12Z")
> [@Bula!](#): > > Which of those benefits would be lost if they engaged in drag hunting instead? The only possible loss to their “enjoyment” I can see is that they don’t get to kill an animal at the end of it. Excuse me if I don’t feel too sorry for them. I’m not asking you to feel sorry for them. It just strikes me as odd that people seem incapable of reminding themselves that the foxes in all probability would be killed anyway. To institute a ban based on how cruel it is to kill the animal in that manner seems much in the wrong direction if snares and poison is still used. And it totally ignores tradition. If you really want to ban all forms of hunting, I won’t care. I don’t hunt, personally, and I think trophy hunting especially detestable. But I can’t get worked up over what amounts to a different way of killing a pest. ---
**Author:** ![Bula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Bula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bula)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586/52 "2005-02-18T00:23:06Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > Again, they would be killed in other, possibly less humane ways. Snares/Poison. > Again, it’s not a ban on hunting, it’s a ban on hunting WITH DOGS. Please don’t get confused and think that the foxes will live happily bouncing around and killing farmer Brown’s chickens and lambs. Well as (IMO) fox hunting is done for the pleasure of those involved, I still believe it is progress to ban hunting with dogs. I would like to believe that hunting with dogs for pleasure will not be replaced by poisoning foxes for pleasure. Maybe I’m just an optimist. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586/53 "2005-02-18T00:25:49Z")
> [@Midaro](#): > > Here in Australia we shoot the things until we run out of bullets. I must of killed 100s, not to mention rabbits, cats (if it hasn’t got a license tag…), dogs (gone feral), pigs, goats… Here, these animals are exotic creatures that kill or displace our native wildlife and destroy ecosystems. In your second sentence, you explain why it’s completlely different to Britain. In the third, you give further reasons to back this up. > [@](#): > > I wonder how much of the opposition to fox hunting is dervied from the faux-aristrocratic wankers that do it, rather than the end result. Oh, a great deal is to do with the _very real_ aristocratic twats who genuinely believe that it’s the ‘way of life’ of the countryside. They just don’t get it. > [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > Again, they would be killed in other, possibly less humane ways. Snares/Poison. Duck, dive, duck, dive. Complain about the tradition, and we’re told it’s about pests. Talk about humane control, and we’re told it’d about tradition. Make up your mind. > [@](#): > > Please don’t get confused and think that the foxes will live happily bouncing around and killing farmer Brown’s chickens and lambs. BTW, Mr Wild Fox is very efficient - he buries all the carcasses, to recover at a future date. Nothing goes to waste. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586/54 "2005-02-18T00:30:40Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Shut up. It’s a way of life for a minority. So is hunting deer in the US, in general. > [@](#): > > I’ll fish for fish I can eat. I don’t do it if all I’m going to do is throw them back. Good for you! I approve. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry for cutting you off, but you quoted random links to unrelated sites. Not a good tactic. If you want to talk about the specific health risks associated with urban foxes, I’d be happy. But I doubt a bunch of guys on horses could solve the problem. Foot and mouth is not an urban disease. The point of posting the links, which by the way were for the bbc and not “random sites”, was to show that foxes indeed threaten farm animals. > [@](#): > > Give me three-inch roach-hounds, which can pursue the roach for hours, and I’ll let you know. Or you could poison them, and leave them to die slowly, like billions of other people do in the world. Much more humane, I should think. Or glue traps. Leave them to slowly starve. How incredibly civilised. Much progress, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586/55 "2005-02-18T00:35:16Z")
It’s true that bloodsports in Europe seem to be the privilege of the wealthy. I’m happy I’m an American, where the appetite for bloodsports is much more democratically distributed. [Like this one, for instance. I’d love to try it someday.](http://www.okienoodling.com/trailer.html) ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586/56 "2005-02-18T00:36:43Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Oh, a great deal is to do with the _very real_ aristocratic twats who genuinely believe that it’s the ‘way of life’ of the countryside. They just don’t get it. Might want to read that survey again. > [@](#): > > Duck, dive, duck, dive. Complain about the tradition, and we’re told it’s about pests. Talk about humane control, and we’re told it’d about tradition. Make up your mind. So, is hunting deer sport or meat or pest control? Which one? > [@](#): > > BTW, Mr Wild Fox is very efficient - he buries all the carcasses, to recover at a future date. Nothing goes to waste. [I’m afraid not.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/mid/3567223.stm) ---
**Author:** ![Domokun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c77e96/32.png) [@Domokun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Domokun)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586/57 "2005-02-18T00:36:58Z")
Factory farming is far crueler than hunting wild animals. It’s not like we’d starve without it either. There’s massive oversupply in livestock farming (thanks CAP). If you want to fight for animals rights (not a bad cause IMO) then that’s the place to start. The hunting with (lots of) dogs ban is nothing more than a bone for Tony Blair’s backbenchers. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586/58 "2005-02-18T00:40:57Z")
Just curious: are cockfighting and dogfighting illegal in Great Britain? I would assume that supporters of foxhunting think they’re different things because the animal “suffers” more in those, but like I said, I’m curious. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586/59 "2005-02-18T00:41:40Z")
> [@Bula!](#): > > Well as (IMO) fox hunting is done for the pleasure of those involved, I still believe it is progress to ban hunting with dogs. > > I would like to believe that hunting with dogs for pleasure will not be replaced by poisoning foxes for pleasure. Maybe I’m just an optimist. Let me get this straight, because it’s pleasurable, it’s wrong? :eek: Are you Catholic? ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586/60 "2005-02-18T00:50:08Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Just curious: are cockfighting and dogfighting illegal in Great Britain? I would assume that supporters of foxhunting think they’re different things because the animal “suffers” more in those, but like I said, I’m curious. I believe they are. But I would caution against drawing parallels - one is a wild pest, the other is the breeding of animals for cruelty, where the animal need not suffer. If you were to catch two foxes and get them to fight each other? I don’t know. I would guess that the objection would be that the primary objective becomes to watch the fight, instead of to kill vermin, and that would be the objectionable part. As to why drag hunting is not seen as a good alternative, I have no idea. I would accept that, personally, if I wanted to do hunting at all. Doesn’t change the fact that some foxes will have to die, anyhow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-foxhunting-here/290586.md?page=4)