# Defend the Republican Rule Change **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 18, 2004, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-the-republican-rule-change/275516 "2004-11-18T19:31:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-the-republican-rule-change/275516/41 "2004-11-19T00:52:23Z")
It’s becoming clear why you moved the hell out. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-the-republican-rule-change/275516/42 "2004-11-19T00:52:39Z")
**bup** : You still haven’t explained why this action is an “abuse of power”. If you like, you can retract the claim instead. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-the-republican-rule-change/275516/43 "2004-11-19T03:03:20Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Nice try, but you obviously don’t know the difference between being impeached and being convicted. A presidential impeachment is the equivalent to being indicted of a crime; it is only an accusation. Precisely. Democrats are saying that if DeLay is simply accused (as you say) of a crime, he ought to step down. If they weren’t being hypocritical, they would have said the same when Clinton was impeached, since impeachment and indictment are fairly equivalent (as I mentioned earlier - scroll up). But they aren’t saying that. They are, in other words, being hypocritical. > [@Fear Itself](#): > > Unless you are suggesting that all those merely accused of crimes should step aside, in which case DeLay is already overstaying his welcome. Is that what you meant? I am not suggesting it. The Democrats are suggesting it, by saying that those in leadership positions ought to step down when indicted or impeached. Unless they are Democrats. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-the-republican-rule-change/275516/44 "2004-11-19T04:20:24Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What reason is there to believe that the DeLay indictment would be a “partisan act of spite”? I don’t think it would be. I’m not defending DeLay, who seems to be pretty corrupt and scummy. I’m saying that it’s possible for a district attorney with a grudge to draw up an indictment against a member of the Congressional leadership, just as it’s possible for the House to impeach the president or a judge out of spite, and that neither an impeachment or indictment is itself proof of guilt. It’s clear that the motivation of the Republicans in this case is to protect Tom DeLay, and (to the extent that the congressmen favoring the rules change favored the rule in the first place) is hypocritical, but that doesn’t mean that changing the rule is in itself a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-the-republican-rule-change/275516/45 "2004-11-19T05:39:06Z")
> [@Orbifold](#): > > Just to play devil’s advocate for a moment, one could argue that the rule wasn’t necessary in the first place for precisely the reasons you outline above, and that therefore the Republicans are just removing a bad rule. I could accept that if they would fess up to the fact that they originally adopted the “bad rule” for no other reason than cheap posturing. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-the-republican-rule-change/275516/46 "2004-11-19T05:41:35Z")
> [@Orbifold](#): > > The Republican party just imposed this rule on itself 11 years ago (partly to score points against the Democrats, who were getting indicted quite a bit at the time) and has now decided to reverse the field to protect DeLay. That sums up my feeling on the matter – they adopted the rule 11 years ago to get a cheap shot at the Democrats, and now it’s only fair that its repeal gives the Democrats a chance to get a cheap shot back. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-the-republican-rule-change/275516/47 "2004-11-19T05:50:10Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > That sums up my feeling on the matter – they adopted the rule 11 years ago to get a cheap shot at the Democrats, and now it’s only fair that its repeal gives the Democrats a chance to get a cheap shot back. What do you think the big hoo-hah being made of this in the press is? If it makes you feel better to get your ounce (not pound) of flesh on this, that’s great. Because when all is said and done, nothing will change, and the Republicans will still be in control of the presidency and both houses of Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-the-republican-rule-change/275516/48 "2004-11-19T11:34:31Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Because when all is said and done, nothing will change, and the Republicans will still be in control of the presidency and both houses of Congress. And blaming Clinton and the Democrats for all the ills in the country. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-the-republican-rule-change/275516/49 "2004-11-19T12:39:13Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > That sums up my feeling on the matter – they adopted the rule 11 years ago to get a cheap shot at the Democrats, and now it’s only fair that its repeal gives the Democrats a chance to get a cheap shot back. the Democrats are not getting a “cheap shot” back. They are merely pointing out obvious hypocrisy on the Repubs’ part. That is not a “cheap shot” it’s completely fair and aboveboard. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-the-republican-rule-change/275516/50 "2004-11-19T13:56:31Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > And blaming Clinton and the Democrats for all the ills in the country. Again, if it makes you feel better to think that, go right ahead. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-the-republican-rule-change/275516/51 "2004-11-19T15:37:53Z")
Until DeLay is actually proven guilty, there is no reason to do anything “to” him. An indictment is just a “reading of the charges” and a “test” to see if there is grounds to go further - trial, exile to Siberia, narfle the Garthok, etc. If DeLay is shown to be guility, **then** get rid of him. **Presumption of innocense until proven guilty**. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-the-republican-rule-change/275516/52 "2004-11-19T15:44:04Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > What do you think the big hoo-hah being made of this in the press is? If it makes you feel better to get your ounce (not pound) of flesh on this, that’s great. Because when all is said and done, nothing will change, and the Republicans will still be in control of the presidency and both houses of Congress. Making the other party seem corrupt (well both parties _are_ corrupt, but pointing that out about the other guy) is no doubt a very old political tool. It worked for the Repubs in the 80’s and 90’s, and will probably work for the Dems today. Sure this particular psuedo-scadal won’t hurt them too much, but if added to by another few misdemeanors over the next few years, it will help add to a general preception that the Repubs can’t be trusted, and they may in fact loose some seats over it. I wish elections were decided based on calm analyisis of policies, but the fact is that dumb little scandals like this one are probably a larger factor. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-the-republican-rule-change/275516/53 "2004-11-19T16:08:19Z")
Of course, **Steve** , quite right. What one notes with mounting glee is that the Pubbies, those paragons of civic virtue, had not discovered this abiding principle until Rep. DeLay (R, Undead) was at risk. One also notes, with the ongoing assistance of Mr. Josh Marshall, of Talking Points Memo, the odd sort of modesty that has overcome some Repubs. One would think they might be trumpeting their new-found moral clarity from the roof tops, and yet, strangely enough, few are willing to have their names firmly attached to this. Must be that becoming modesty which is so much the lodestone of our congresscritters, that they shy away from associating themselves with such actions as might bring avalanches of feverish approval and approbation. Yes, that must be it. Elsewise, how to account for their insistence on anonymity, in an effort to protect one of our finest and wisest from the scurrillous mongerings of a “crackpot” District Attorney and his trumped up array of documents, canceled checks and testimony? Why, one need only look upon the face of the driven snow pure Mr. DeLay, and see the innocence and prudence etched on every crater-like pore, a man whose gentle guidance and persuasion has earned him the nickname, “the Hammer”. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-the-republican-rule-change/275516/54 "2004-11-19T18:01:35Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Until DeLay is actually proven guilty, there is no reason to do anything “to” him. An indictment is just a “reading of the charges” and a “test” to see if there is grounds to go further If we forget about the political parties and their rules for the moment, assume that you have a coworker who thinks he is the authority on “moral values” and keeps saying “_I am so honest and moral, that, if I ever so much as get indicted, I’ll resign from the company_”. Then, one day, he is gets indicted and fails to resign. When you ask him why, he says, “It was my rule, and I can change it whenever I want. Besides, by law, I’m innocent until proven guilty” The issue is that, though he is technically correct, such behavior would show that he is a complete asshole and a hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-the-republican-rule-change/275516/55 "2004-11-19T18:28:37Z")
I would hold the door open for him to leave, with a big smirk on my face. If he chose not to leave, I would take sadistic glee in teasing him about his flipflop from then on. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-the-republican-rule-change/275516/56 "2004-11-19T20:41:01Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > **bup** : You still haven’t explained why this action is an “abuse of power”. If you like, you can retract the claim instead. Well, you’re right about that - just wrong phrase, or just overstated. It’s more accurately “Republicans are behaving like those who abuse power might behave.” It’s still disgusting, and I think the Republicans’ point of view at the moment is entirely dependent on the situation, rather than any principle. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-the-republican-rule-change/275516/57 "2004-11-19T20:46:56Z")
You’re assuming the GOP _had_ any principles to begin with. (Okay, okay, there’s the “Win at any cost” principle, but that’s not exactly something to be proud of, is it?) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-the-republican-rule-change/275516/58 "2004-11-19T21:05:25Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Well, you’re right about that - just wrong phrase, or just overstated. It’s more accurately “Republicans are behaving like those who abuse power might behave.” I won’t push you further on this, but you’re statement is simply unsupportable because there is no “power” in this instance at all. > [@](#): > > It’s still disgusting, and I think the Republicans’ point of view at the moment is entirely dependent on the situation, rather than any principle. I can agree with that. And the point is that they made a stupid rule several years ago and now they are correcting it-- and paying some small political price for doing so. What would be REALLY foolish would be to keep the rule, to the detrimant of the party, just to look good. The error was made in the past, not in the current action, so if anythign should be condemned it’s the act of creating the rule in the first place. I’m about as disturbed by this as I am about politically motivated redistricting. Both parties do it, and shame on them when they do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-the-republican-rule-change/275516.md?page=2)