# Defend white supremacy! I dare you! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2004, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521 "2004-03-10T18:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Headcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@Headcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Headcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521/21 "2004-03-11T03:24:46Z")
I’m not a racialist, but I am not opposed to people who have racialist ideals. I think its natural for people of a certain heritage and race to prefer those of similar background and appearance. Perhaps an innate drive to defend their gene pool from outsiders. I’ve met many racists in my day, from all races, classes, and social statuses. Its a fallacy to believe racists are made up solely of “dumb rednecks”, on the contrary, there are many intelligent and well educated people among their ranks. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521/22 "2004-03-11T03:37:26Z")
> [@Millen88](#): > > Hi, **BrainGlutton**. I’m a White Nationalist. I’m not sure if I’m the type of person you are looking for, but do you have any questions? Yes. What exactly does “White Nationalism” mean to you? Do you want some form of racial segregation reinstituted? Do you want non-whites exterminated or deported from the U.S., as at the end of _The Turner Diaries?_ Do you want to establish an all-white homeland in the Northwest, as some militia organizations have proposed? And, whatever you want, why do you want it? Why are you a White Nationalist? When you look at a non-white person, what do you see? ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521/23 "2004-03-11T05:07:39Z")
I understand your curiosity, BrainGlutton, but there’s no point in inviting these people to blab about their views. They are, to put it simply, sick people. Do you know what the “88” means in “Millen88”? In Germany it’s illegal to use Nazi insignia, etc., so the neo-Nazis there use “88”: 8 is the 8th letter of the alphabet, or H. “HH” stands for “Heil Hitler.” So Millen’s hero is Adolf Hitler, one of the most evil and destructive people in the history of the planet. You really want this guy and others to elucidate their philosophy of life? I pity them rather than hate them. Their way of thinking died with Hitler, the cowardly suicide, back in 1945, and yet they have chosen the most out-of-date, ugly, unsuccessful, and socially despised ideology the could as their life’s “theme.” Rather than respond to Glutton’s challenge, people, please stop hating and get some counseling. ---
**Author:** ![DevilDan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e495f1/32.png) [@DevilDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DevilDan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521/24 "2004-03-11T06:41:19Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > Racism exists and it’s not clear why. Why? Because we’re “human.” [Read: fearful, ignorant, IMPERFECT, and 3/4 to 15/16 wild unthinking animal] Thus, racism (repugnance and moral indignation aside), is a funky ideological phenomenon similar to phobias, superstitions, neuroses, the illusion that watching car races is a sane pasttime, or the belief that Mel Gibson’s Christ movie is a worthwhile topic of discussion. P.S. The “3/4 to 15/16” bit isn’t some obscure racial thing. We’re ALL just uppity cave apes with delusions of adequacy. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521/25 "2004-03-11T07:52:03Z")
> [@DevilDan](#): > > Why? > > Because we’re “human.” [Read: fearful, ignorant, IMPERFECT, and 3/4 to 15/16 wild unthinking animal] Thus, racism (repugnance and moral indignation aside), is a funky ideological phenomenon similar to phobias, superstitions, neuroses, the illusion that watching car races is a sane pasttime, or the belief that Mel Gibson’s Christ movie is a worthwhile topic of discussion. Agreed. Humans are naturally inclined towards racism because humans are at base pack animals. We feel the most secure when we are in a group, particularly is **our** group is bigger and stronger than **theirs**. That’s just the way we’re wired from birth. I do believe that people can over-ride this through willpower and logic–or at least distort it from racism into intelligencism or coolnessism–but for people who were brought up in a society/family which already had strong us/them attitudes or simply had nothing except usses to deal with on a daily basis, it may be near impossible to change in the short-term. So simply, just as a cross-dresser just **does** feel more comfortable and secure when in drag, racists most probably become this way simply because it is what makes them feel the most secure in their own lives. And, personally, so long as they never act to harm the members of “them,” I have no problem with racists. Past that and they deserve back what they dish out. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521/26 "2004-03-11T14:30:00Z")
**Aeschines:** > [@](#): > > I understand your curiosity, **BrainGlutton,** but there’s no point in inviting these people to blab about their views. Well, since it is **BrainGlutton’s** thread, so-to-speak, in which he specifically _asked_ “these people to blab about their views,” then I would argue that there is a point. > [@](#): > > I pity them rather than hate them. Their way of thinking died with Hitler, the cowardly suicide, back in 1945, and yet they have chosen the most out-of-date, ugly, unsuccessful, and socially despised ideology the could as their life’s “theme.” Self contradictory. If “their way of thinking” died in 1945, how could they have chosen to espouse it today. Evidently, “their way of thinking” is alive, and thriving. However “socially despised” their ideology may be, _ **The Straight Dope** _ is about fighting ignorance, not suppressing it. That means, in many cases, holding your nose and taking the plunge directly into some thorny, unpleasant issues. And no, _ **ExTank** _ /= Nazi (knaTxE), as some people on this board have suggested. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521/27 "2004-03-11T14:39:50Z")
Well, **BG** , it appears your bait has been taken. I have a hypothetical for **Millen88** : [ul][li]A “whites-only” community is established somewhere in the US, complete with high walls if necessary.[/li][li] This hard-working community is a paragon of virtuous, idyllic family life, such that _everyone_ wants to live there.[/li][li] The community gets many applications from outsiders wanting in to this “ideal” life, who are prepared to tell any lies necessary to do so, even to questions such as “Do you consider yourself white?” (_eg._ Samuel L. Jackson: “Damn straight”).[/ul][/li]So, first question: **How do you decide who is “white”?** [ul][li]Do people simply stand next to a colour chart? Obviously, this would let in all manner of Jews, Arabs, Chinese and the like, and so this plainly wouldn’t work. [/li][li]Perhaps, like WW2 Germany, one is simply labelled according to one’s surname or even the shape of one’s nose? Unfortunately, if it is as easy to be labelled “white” as it was to be labelled “Jew” _then_, then again there would be a veritable flood of new entrants.[/li][li]So, how about some kind of _genetic_ test for this “whiteness”? The obvious question is _what the hell are we **looking** for?_ “Whiteness” is surely not some single genetic marker like _eg._ sickle-cell anaemia. We would have to analyse countless mongrol races like Aryans, Jutes, Angles, Franks, Celts, Normans, Picts, Saxons, Slavs… the list is endless!, until we came across this elusive genetic mark of “whiteness”. [/ul][/li]As a demonstration of the nonexistence of the white race, consider which of these people would “get in”: _Queen Elizabeth, Robert De Niro, Christina Aguilera, Ben Stiller, Tiger Woods, Timothy McVeigh, Woody Allen, Anna Kournikova, Tia Carrere._ Tricky, huh? If you considered the consequences of this difficulty fully, **Millen** , you might come to agree that actual _discord_ would likely arise within the community due to different people considering _themselves_ “white” but not others. **You** might even be on the receiving end of such discrimination _yourself_ because someone finds _eg._ Slavic/Celtic/Hispanic/Semitic blood in _your_ ancestry which, in their eyes, makes you less “white” than they. You might even agree that it was _inevitable_ that the community would eventually fall apart because of the discord caused by some admissions. If you _did_ agree with this outcome, you would surely agree with its obvious consequence: _Unsegregated communities are inherently more stable than segregated ones._ What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521/28 "2004-03-11T14:53:16Z")
Ditto **ExTank**. This thread is at the heart of GD. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521/29 "2004-03-11T14:57:20Z")
To add: **Aeschines** , I’d rather understand the thinking of someone who holds these beliefs rather than simply berate them. Perhaps if you’d listen to them you’d have a greater chance of them listening to you. **Millen88** hope you’ll come back to the thread. Everyone else, I hope you’ll be civil if he does. Let’s learn something. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521/30 "2004-03-11T15:39:07Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > I pity them rather than hate them. Their way of thinking died with Hitler, the cowardly suicide, back in 1945, and yet they have chosen the most out-of-date, ugly, unsuccessful, and socially despised ideology the could as their life’s “theme.” The claim that a mindset died in 1945 and simultaneously exists today sounds a lot like Orwellian double-think to me. ---
**Author:** ![Millen89](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Millen89](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Millen89)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521/31 "2004-03-12T00:24:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes. What exactly does “White Nationalism” mean to you? Do you want some form of racial segregation reinstituted? Do you want non-whites exterminated or deported from the U.S., as at the end of _The Turner Diaries?_ Do you want to establish an all-white homeland in the Northwest, as some militia organizations have proposed? > > And, whatever you want, why do you want it? Why are you a White Nationalist? When you look at a non-white person, what do you see? **What exactly does “White Nationalism” mean to you?** For me, White nationalism is a movement with the ultimate goad of establishing a separate nation for Whites only somewhere in North America. I also believe that non-White immigration into White European nations should be halted. And I think that non-Whites should be deported from all White European nations. **Do you want some form of racial segregation reinstituted?** No, I do not. **Do you want non-whites exterminated or deported from the U.S., as at the end of The Turner Diaries? Do you want to establish an all-white homeland in the Northwest, as some militia organizations have proposed?** On extermination – No! On deportation – No. Yes, I want a White homeland somewhere in North America. \*\*And, whatever you want, why do you want it? \*\* I want a White homeland. The purpose of this is self-determination for Whites. \*\*Why are you a White Nationalist? \*\* I have come to the conclusion that the ultimate goal of Multiculturalists is the extermination of Whites, and I am determined to prevent that. **When you look at a non-white person, what do you see?** I see a person that is neither superior nor inferior to me. ---
**Author:** ![Millen89](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Millen89](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Millen89)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521/32 "2004-03-12T00:32:02Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > I understand your curiosity, BrainGlutton, but there’s no point in inviting these people to blab about their views. > > They are, to put it simply, sick people. Do you know what the “88” means in “Millen88”? In Germany it’s illegal to use Nazi insignia, etc., so the neo-Nazis there use “88”: 8 is the 8th letter of the alphabet, or H. “HH” stands for “Heil Hitler.” > > So Millen’s hero is Adolf Hitler, one of the most evil and destructive people in the history of the planet. You really want this guy and others to elucidate their philosophy of life? > > I pity them rather than hate them. Their way of thinking died with Hitler, the cowardly suicide, back in 1945, and yet they have chosen the most out-of-date, ugly, unsuccessful, and socially despised ideology the could as their life’s “theme.” > > Rather than respond to Glutton’s challenge, people, please stop hating and get some counseling. **Aeschines** , I share your view of Hitler. I played college football and my number was eighty-eight. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521/33 "2004-03-12T00:56:54Z")
by **Millen88** > [@](#): > > I have come to the conclusion that the ultimate goal of Multiculturalists is the extermination of Whites, and I am determined to prevent that. Who are “multiculturalists”? And why would they want to exterminate whites if they, themselves, are white? What you are implying is that you fear genocide. How will this be accomplished? Through literal killing? Or will it be through miscegenation? If it’s the latter, why do you perceive this extermination as being just a one-way street? Won’t we all be affected? I’m also interested in how you define whiteness. Is it an all or nothing property? Are there grades? Do you consider all European descendants as being in the same family, so to speak? Ethnicity-wise, do you see Italians as being as white as Scandinavians? When you Halle Berry, do you see a dark-skinned white woman or a light-skinned black one? ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521/34 "2004-03-12T02:08:16Z")
Personally, just about all of the white suprememacists I’ve ever met were black. Why are you limiting both of your threads to just whites? ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521/35 "2004-03-12T02:15:13Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > Personally, just about all of the white suprememacists I’ve ever met were black. Why are you limiting both of your threads to just whites? Just how does that work? I suddenly reminded of that Dave Chappelle character 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521/36 "2004-03-12T02:19:00Z")
Hell no, the first post had me running off halfway through it. Note to self: stay away from racial and/or medical school issues on internet discussion boards. ---
**Author:** ![Millen89](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Millen89](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Millen89)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521/37 "2004-03-12T02:31:20Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Well, **BG** , it appears your bait has been taken. I have a hypothetical for **Millen88** : > [ul][li]A “whites-only” community is established somewhere in the US, complete with high walls if necessary.[/li][li] This hard-working community is a paragon of virtuous, idyllic family life, such that _everyone_ wants to live there.[/li][li] The community gets many applications from outsiders wanting in to this “ideal” life, who are prepared to tell any lies necessary to do so, even to questions such as “Do you consider yourself white?” (_eg._ Samuel L. Jackson: “Damn straight”).[/ul][/li]So, first question: **How do you decide who is “white”?** > [ul][li]Do people simply stand next to a colour chart? Obviously, this would let in all manner of Jews, Arabs, Chinese and the like, and so this plainly wouldn’t work. [/li][li]Perhaps, like WW2 Germany, one is simply labelled according to one’s surname or even the shape of one’s nose? Unfortunately, if it is as easy to be labelled “white” as it was to be labelled “Jew” _then_, then again there would be a veritable flood of new entrants.[/li][li]So, how about some kind of _genetic_ test for this “whiteness”? The obvious question is _what the hell are we **looking** for?_ “Whiteness” is surely not some single genetic marker like _eg._ sickle-cell anaemia. We would have to analyse countless mongrol races like Aryans, Jutes, Angles, Franks, Celts, Normans, Picts, Saxons, Slavs… the list is endless!, until we came across this elusive genetic mark of “whiteness”. [/ul][/li]As a demonstration of the nonexistence of the white race, consider which of these people would “get in”: _Queen Elizabeth, Robert De Niro, Christina Aguilera, Ben Stiller, Tiger Woods, Timothy McVeigh, Woody Allen, Anna Kournikova, Tia Carrere._ Tricky, huh? > > If you considered the consequences of this difficulty fully, **Millen** , you might come to agree that actual _discord_ would likely arise within the community due to different people considering _themselves_ “white” but not others. **You** might even be on the receiving end of such discrimination _yourself_ because someone finds _eg._ Slavic/Celtic/Hispanic/Semitic blood in _your_ ancestry which, in their eyes, makes you less “white” than they. You might even agree that it was _inevitable_ that the community would eventually fall apart because of the discord caused by some admissions. > > If you _did_ agree with this outcome, you would surely agree with its obvious consequence: > > _Unsegregated communities are inherently more stable than segregated ones._ > > What do you think? **How do you decide who is “white”?** I would take people on their word. If that meant that some non-Whites got in then so what? **SentientMeat** , I’m sorry to disappoint you: I’m not a Hitler-loving Nazi; I think Hitler was a mad man, and I’m pro Israel. **As a demonstration of the nonexistence of the white race, consider which of these people would “get in”: Queen Elizabeth, Robert De Niro, Christina Aguilera, Ben Stiller, Tiger Woods, Timothy McVeigh, Woody Allen, Anna Kournikova, Tia Carrere. Tricky, huh?** If he were alive today, Timothy McVeigh would definitely not be let in. Ben Stiller would be let in; he’s awesome. As for the others, I guess it would be taken on a case by case basis. **If you considered the consequences of this difficulty fully, Millen, you might come to agree that actual discord would likely arise within the community due to different people considering themselves “white” but not others. You might even be on the receiving end of such discrimination yourself because someone finds eg. Slavic/Celtic/Hispanic/Semitic blood in your ancestry which, in their eyes, makes you less “white” than they. You might even agree that it was inevitable that the community would eventually fall apart because of the discord caused by some admissions.** No, I disagree. Most White Nationalists aren’t interested in “racial purity” (I think that’s what it is called anyway). If you ever get the change, head on over to SF; go to their General Rants section; you’ll see plenty of people stating that they are a certain percentage non-White and asking if they would still be considered White? The majority of White Nationalists usually answer “Sure!” Ironically, I found out about SF from this message board. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521/38 "2004-03-12T02:38:02Z")
> [@Millen88](#): > > **Aeschines** , I share your view of Hitler. I played college football and my number was eighty-eight. Surely you can understand the misunderstanding! If you call yourself a “White Nationalist” and use that number, people are going to put 8 and 8 together, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521/39 "2004-03-12T02:43:16Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Well, since it is **BrainGlutton’s** thread, so-to-speak, in which he specifically _asked_ “these people to blab about their views,” then I would argue that there is a point. And I’m saying that, owing to the utter repulsiveness of their views, we shouldn’t be debating them here on SDMB. These people don’t deserve a forum. > [@](#): > > Self contradictory. If “their way of thinking” died in 1945, how could they have chosen to espouse it today. Good question. On one anti-revisionist site I read, the writer describes the motivation. In many cases, a lwould-be leader does not really hope for success. Rather, he hopes for only enough followers/donations/etc. to make a decent living. The ideology has no chance of political success, but that doesn’t mean that some people profit from; others get losers’ kicks from it. > [@](#): > > Evidently, “their way of thinking” is alive, and thriving. However “socially despised” their ideology may be, _ **The Straight Dope** _ is about fighting ignorance, not suppressing it. Beyond a certain level of ignorance and repulsiveness, however, a forum for self-promotion or idea-promotion is not deserved. > [@](#): > > That means, in many cases, holding your nose and taking the plunge directly into some thorny, unpleasant issues. In many cases, perhaps, but White Supremecy is not one. And no, _ **ExTank** _ /= Nazi (knaTxE), as some people on this board have suggested. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521/40 "2004-03-12T03:09:19Z")
**Millen88** , I’m a little confused. Above you said you think “non-Whites should be deported from all White European nations.” But in the same post, you said you oppose segregation and, indeed, deportation in the US. What are the White European nations, and why would you support deportation there and not in the US? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defend-white-supremacy-i-dare-you/233521.md?page=3)