# Defenders: seen it. Open spoilers. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 20, 2017, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203 "2017-08-20T18:45:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203/61 "2017-08-30T17:07:27Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > I’m pretty sure in both the comics and on Netflix, Luke Cage is stronger and far more invulnerable than Jessica Jones. > > And I agree, inconsistent power levels always annoy me, sometimes to the point of ruining my immersion, even after so, so many decades of reading comics. Of course there is nothing saying the comics and tv have to be the same. Marvel wiki puts Luke Cage at being able to lift 25 tons but Jessica Jones has strength that is undetermined. She has some level of invulnerability but probably not as good as Cage. One big clue that they are not making her the same is that comic Jessica can fly. Resurrected Elektra is now powerful enough to effect Luke Cage with a punch. Kevlar suit or not that would turn Daredevil into jelly. Iron Fist too. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203/62 "2017-08-30T17:39:53Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Of course there is nothing saying the comics and tv have to be the same. Marvel wiki puts Luke Cage at being able to lift 25 tons but Jessica Jones has strength that is undetermined. She has some level of invulnerability but probably not as good as Cage. One big clue that they are not making her the same is that comic Jessica can fly. Agreed, that is why I separated the two. And didn’t she fly in the TV series briefly? I can’t remember. I know they made an issue about how she’s really good at falling. Invulnerable characters in group situations are hard. None of the Hand except the bosses should give Cage too much difficulty, but then you’ve lost the story, especially Elektra/Daredevil. ---
**Author:** ![Reluctant\_A](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203/63 "2017-08-30T17:54:34Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > As often happens Hollywood greatly overestimates how powerful explosives are. A duffel bag full? Maybe 30 lbs of C4? That isn’t nearly as impressive people think. No way it’s taking down a building. Not even if the architect who designed the building knew exactly where the weak points in the foundation were, and made a blueprint detailing exactly where to place the explosives to make that happen? > [@Loach](#): > > > [@D\_Odds](#): > > > > I’m pretty sure in both the comics and on Netflix, Luke Cage is stronger and far more invulnerable than Jessica Jones. > > > > And I agree, inconsistent power levels always annoy me, sometimes to the point of ruining my immersion, even after so, so many decades of reading comics. > > Of course there is nothing saying the comics and tv have to be the same. Marvel wiki puts Luke Cage at being able to lift 25 tons but Jessica Jones has strength that is undetermined. She has some level of invulnerability but probably not as good as Cage. One big clue that they are not making her the same is that comic Jessica can fly. I’m at least 75 percent sure that they retconned Luke into being stronger than Jessica; I don’t think that the character has been Class 25 for his entire history. I know that, in the original OHOTMU that was printed back in '83 (and which I still have a copy of), they are very explicit about how invulnerable Luke is but, IIRC, they don’t mention his strength level at all. I think that, originally, Luke’s strength was supposed to be below Spider-man’s, whereas I think that Jessica was always supposed to be at least as strong as Spider-man is and, at some point, the characters may have been retconned to where Luke was stronger. ---
**Author:** ![Reluctant\_A](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203/64 "2017-08-30T18:00:08Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Agreed, that is why I separated the two. And didn’t she fly in the TV series briefly? I can’t remember. I know they made an issue about how she’s really good at falling. We see her take off with Kilgrave, but we never see her land, so we don’t know how long she was actually able to remain airborne. It’s possible that in the Marvel NF-verse, she can just “leap over duplexes in a single bound” or some such, and it’s possible that she _can_ actually fly, but she doesn’t have the kind of flight ability that is intuitive, and she could never be arsed to learn how to do it properly, so she doesn’t like to mess with it. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203/65 "2017-08-30T18:33:20Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > One big clue that they are not making her the same is that comic Jessica can fly. In the show **Powers** with Sharlto Copley, they mention that some new supers die crashing or flying into buildings because being able to defy gravity doesn’t mean you know how to fly, like deal with crosswinds, thermals, navigating from the air, etc. and if you’re not invulnerable it’s an issue. Like that, Netflix Jessica seems to be **able** to fly, but doesn’t know _how_ so doesn’t trust her ability - and since it would be all superhero-ey anyway, she refuses to practice. Plus, she’s usually intoxicated, so not a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Reluctant\_A](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203/66 "2017-08-30T18:37:07Z")
So, basically, like Hancock, if Hancock _weren’t_ bulletproof? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203/67 "2017-08-30T19:06:46Z")
> [@Reluctant\_A](#): > > Not even if the architect who designed the building knew exactly where the weak points in the foundation were, and made a blueprint detailing exactly where to place the explosives to make that happen? Not even close. They hand waved at “structural columns” but that wouldn’t matter. I have blown shots of 40-50 lbs pretty often. It’s not as impressive as you would think. Take a duffel bag worth of C4 let’s say 100 lbs. Colleen was carrying it easily so it didn’t look that heavy but I’ll assume. They showed 4 columns. 25 lbs each. Now the bombs were next to the columns. Not bored in and tamped down. 25 lbs would have destroyed the room it was in and scratched a thick concrete column. A quick google search showed that in the demolition of a 27 story building 1.5 tons of explosives were used to bring it down. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203/68 "2017-08-30T19:30:25Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > In the show **Powers** with Sharlto Copley, they mention that some new supers die crashing or flying into buildings because being able to defy gravity doesn’t mean you know how to fly, like deal with crosswinds, thermals, navigating from the air, etc. and if you’re not invulnerable it’s an issue. Like that, Netflix Jessica seems to be **able** to fly, but doesn’t know _how_ so doesn’t trust her ability - and since it would be all superhero-ey anyway, she refuses to practice. Plus, she’s usually intoxicated, so not a good idea. And it’s much more expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203/69 "2017-08-30T19:46:21Z")
Punisher is rumored to drop in November. Any word on other seasons of the other shows? ---
**Author:** ![Reluctant\_A](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203/70 "2017-08-30T19:53:42Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Not even close. They hand waved at “structural columns” but that wouldn’t matter. I have blown shots of 40-50 lbs pretty often. It’s not as impressive as you would think. Take a duffel bag worth of C4 let’s say 100 lbs. Colleen was carrying it easily so it didn’t look that heavy but I’ll assume. They showed 4 columns. 25 lbs each. Now the bombs were next to the columns. Not bored in and tamped down. 25 lbs would have destroyed the room it was in and scratched a thick concrete column. A quick google search showed that in the demolition of a 27 story building 1.5 tons of explosives were used to bring it down. Thanks for the info… That said, this post is an adequate summary of why I refuse to consume fiction based on anything about which I have practical knowledge. If I can’t watch something without willfully suspending disbelief, and without being able to turn off the part of my brain that wants to play “spot the inaccuracies,” I don’t want to watch it. ---
**Author:** ![Reluctant\_A](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203/71 "2017-08-30T20:26:39Z")
In fairness, I should further acknowledge that that is an entirely toothless and meaningless “boycott” on my part, if for no other reason than because the things about which I have practical knowledge wouldn’t make for an interesting television show, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203/72 "2017-08-31T00:19:13Z")
> [@Reluctant\_A](#): > > In fairness, I should further acknowledge that that is an entirely toothless and meaningless “boycott” on my part, if for no other reason than because the things about which I have practical knowledge wouldn’t make for an interesting television show, anyway. 20 years police 27 years military. That covers a lot of Hollywood output. I just grit my teeth mostly. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2017, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203/73 "2017-08-31T01:02:11Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Punisher is rumored to drop in November. Any word on other seasons of the other shows? I know they’re shooting more _Jessica Jones_ right now. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203/74 "2017-09-01T01:00:26Z")
> [@Reluctant\_A](#): > > So, basically, like Hancock, if Hancock _weren’t_ bulletproof? Sort of. Almost no comicverse seems to take into account that flying is dangerous if you aren’t invulnerable like Superman; if you can’t just fly thru a building, you probably shouldn’t be up there. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203/75 "2017-09-01T14:28:23Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > Sort of. Almost no comicverse seems to take into account that flying is dangerous if you aren’t invulnerable like Superman; if you can’t just fly thru a building, you probably shouldn’t be up there. That shouldn’t be too much of a problem, just like running away shouldn’t be a problem in a horror film. Avoiding large stationary objects isn’t that much of a problem, and after a day or three of practice, doing so at speed shouldn’t be too much of an issue. What should be a problem is when Supes takes LL up 3,000+ meters and now she can’t breathe and she develops acute frostbite, or when any flying non-invulnerable hero gets up higher than a few hundred meters. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203/76 "2017-09-02T09:01:07Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > That shouldn’t be too much of a problem, just like running away shouldn’t be a problem in a horror film. Avoiding large stationary objects isn’t that much of a problem, and after a day or three of practice, doing so at speed shouldn’t be too much of an issue. Remember that this isn’t like driving - flying superheroes are constantly knocked off course in mid-air, into buildings or into the ground. And not only do writers often ignore the problems of non-invulnerable passengers dealing with the cold or lack of oxygen, there’s also the speed. As someone that rides a motorcycle, I can tell you that over 100mph dealing with air moving around you is an issue in street clothes, especially without eye protection. In **Exo** by Steven Gould a non-invulnerable person flies at 500mph for a couple of seconds - she’s bruised an sore all over, gets two black/red eyes, and the street clothes that don’t rip off completely are shredded. _That’s_ how Lois should look being rescued from a plane at cruising speed in a skirt and heels. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203/77 "2017-09-02T14:18:58Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > Sort of. Almost no comicverse seems to take into account that flying is dangerous if you aren’t invulnerable like Superman; if you can’t just fly thru a building, you probably shouldn’t be up there. Superspeed too. Unless you’re invulnerable running that fast will rip the skin from you sooner or later. ---
**Author:** ![bmoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@bmoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2017, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203/78 "2017-09-04T01:30:54Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > One problem I’m having with the plot. It’s a big deal that Alexandra used the last of their magic resurrection juice to bring back Elektra. Which is fine… except, we just saw _Iron Fist_, where the Hand used it to bring back Harold Meachum, a guy they were already blackmailing into obedience and whom they knew to be fundamentally disloyal. It worked in _Iron Fist_ because at the time, “bringing back dead people,” was just something the Hand could do. Now, we know that had to be the second to last dose they had, or very nearly so. Seems like whoever decided they should give their second-to-last dose of immortality drugs to the doughy American CEO made just as questionable a decision as Alexandra did in making the Black Sky. > > Hell, I’ll bet all five of them were really starting to regret making that literal army of undead ninja mooks Daredevil fought in season 2 of his show. It wasn’t explicitly stated, but I got the impression that using The Substance to create Black Sky was different than using it to resurrect someone, and presumably would need a mega-dose of The Substance. The others probably thought they had plenty of doses left until they found out Alexandra unilaterally used the whole stockpile to create Black Sky. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2017, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203/79 "2017-09-04T17:25:18Z")
I’m a little late to the party I know but just finished it last night. What a waste. This just never came together at all. Every scene of Sigourney Weaver doing old rich lady stuff (how many episodes featured her just… eating in a restaurant?) could have been done to further the characters and their dynamics. The only thing I liked was the Elektra twist with when she killed Alexandra. I thought the big reveal would be that the “black sky” was their code word for “new vessel.” My theory was that Elektra was brought back to be Alexandra’s new host. The vessel retains skills and knowledge of their previous life but has no connection to it --kind of like the Trill on Star Trek. Elektra finding this out would be her reason for turning. Also, the Hand were way more interesting in Daredevil-- ninjas are always better than just random dudes in army jackets. ---
**Author:** ![icon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c6cbf5/32.png) [@icon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/icon)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2017, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203/80 "2017-09-05T10:37:05Z")
Although there is no question that Danny Rand was annoyingly naive, it was made up by the rest of the characters. One thing they did particularly well was give each one different motivations that culminated in their reunion rather than the usual, they all saw a fire/spaceship/monster and all came running. The Sigourney Weaver character was interesting enough, but it seemed like a re-tread of the King Pin especially from the first Daredevil series. There were differences for sure, but they came across very similar. Overall, I enjoyed it, and although I knew that Daredevil would survive, I still felt the ending was poignant. Oh and there is no question that even though he died, stick was probably the biggest bad-ass of them all. //i\ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defenders-seen-it-open-spoilers/794203.md?page=5)