Defending a castle from the air

They are pretty certain to cost more regardless of the technology or magic being used to achieve flight, but the amount they can carry and their fighting abilities are very much dependent.

Flying humanoids (bat-winged guys, or angelic types) – assuming the physics can support them getting airborne – are likely to be lightweight and even fragile.

If the tech or magic is more like jet-packs, then they weight carried may be constrained, and the troops lightly armed, but the troops themselves of normal capabilities once they land.

If flying carpets, flying boats, etc are available then both heavy troops and equipment might be flown in.

But yes, they’re likely to be terribly expensive / rare.

How do the flying things attack? Do they land on the roof and duke it out with hand to hand weapons, or shoot arrows or something?

You can toss a lot of shrapnel and debris in the air with something like a catapult. The people operating it could be protected by a cubby built into the sides of the machine. Load the shrapnel, arm the machine, let the stuff fly, and duck into the cubbies before the junk hits the ground. That would be a good way to stop flying troops of the “shoot arrows” or “swarm” variety.

If they have to land before engaging in battle, a small group of soldiers with a couple of long spears could make landing extremely difficult. If they’re spaced out correctly, even a small group could quickly bring lots of pointy edges to bear against a descending enemy, since you dont have the normal “bottleneck” problem if you’re aiming at something in the air. Flying things take up a lot more space relative to their size and strength, meaning there’s a whole lot of places to stick a spear and cripple them.

Hi, Apollyon – good to meet you. Please accept my best regards and wishes.

The OP did say (didn’t he? I think so) winged humanoids – as I said, I don’t play these games and probably shouldn’t be allowed to discuss them – but to me, wings means certain limitations. Out-and-out magic doesn’t, and to my constricted imagination, that’s why it’s out of bounds. Otherwise, the game devolves into “Oh, yeah? Well, my wizard can do this!!!” And where’s the fun in that?

But I’ll bow to your ideas – obviously you’ve thought about this much more than I did before posting.

Good to meet you too King of Soup.

Ahhh… :slight_smile: Yes… or at least “mainly winged humanoids”… and he later mentioned that “powerful magic is rare”… so your comments on cost, weight and fighting ability are probably rather more germane than mine,

Pish, and indeed tosh! :slight_smile: Priceguy hasn’t specified a particular game system (or even confirmed an exact genre), so I think we can all play this thought experiment. :slight_smile: Some of the other posters have mentioned D&D in their answers, most of my experience with this sort of thing has ome from DragonQuest (which has a fair amount of flight magic – probably rather more and more powerful than what Priceguy is referring to.

And is probably much closer to what the OP is after… something like the Garuda of Miéville’s Bas-Leg (Perdido Street Station, etc).

I understand what you are getting at – my wife’s main rpg fantasy character is a winged halfling (didn’t start out with wings – long story), and while it might in fact require a magical world (or at least one with different physics to our own) to get a 3’ 6" halfling off the grounbd with 7’ angel wings, it’s better to treat it as “natural” flight (like Pegasus, or a gryphon, etc) and then apply as much commonsense / real world knowledge as possible.

Even when there is high magic in a game it will (usually) have rules around it… or a GM/Referee to say “no, your wizard can’t”… but in review the OP does appear to be asking more about “natural” flyers than flying boats or carpets.

They do whatever seems it might work. Imagine if someone gave you a pair of wings and the energy to use them efficiently, without having to worry about your skeleton becoming hollow or your food requirements increasing or your chest muscles needing to be made of steel. I don’t go for realism in my fantasy games so I don’t worry about what flying humanoids would require in real life, while simultaneously avoiding King of Soup’s “My wizard can do this!”; I have set rules that everyone knows about but that nevertheless are ultimately extracted from my posterior orifice.

In short, if a force of the flying guys think they can attack effectively with bows and guns from the air, they will. If they think they can do so by landing and swinging swords, they will. This is not a big concern - there are two races of flyers, both uncommon and neither inclined to form huge armies - but big enough that you would put some thought into it when building a castle. The flyers have had decisive effects on historical battles, so it’s something to think of.

Or, to use the technical term, an indie game. :smiley:

Thanks.

I have the uncomfortable feeling of having given offense without intending it. I am aware that lots of people have invested lots of time and thought and effort into exactly the sort of question the OP asked, and I am embarrassed to have used the word “magic” disparagingly, meaning (for my own purposes) “without rules” when for most of the people who play and think seriously about these things, it merely evokes a whole new, complicated and strict set of rules that I haven’t thought about and don’t understand. I sincerely apologize to anyone who felt or feels slighted by my remarks.

Still, from Twain’s Connecticut Yankee on, I’ve always enjoyed the rude collision of reality with fantasy, and that’s all I was trying to get at in my first post. Peace.

Peaked Roof with a steep slope, buttressed from the inside creating a multilayered honeycomb shape, that has multiple levels woven into it. Around the bottom of the slope of the peak where it levels off there is a battlement with giant spikes sticking out, so if aerial troops every tried to land they’d be impaled. Along the battlement are archers that can shoot things down, hopefully on the roof to be impaled by said spikes.

Oh yeah, and fluted shapes to guide rocks to particular exit points in the battlement to rain down on any sieging army below in case the fliers decide to drop rocks on the castle.

This solution (on a certain other world this is known as tarnwire) would be my first recourse, too.

Also, having some flying troops of your own, to meet them on equal terms. At the very least, poison your falcons’ claws.

Very good idea. A couple of strategically placed cauldrons full of burning tar coupled with all that wires, poles and nettings could effectively make any kind of aerial assault suicidal.

Lets see, what kind of threat could flyers be:

Intel. To prevent them from scouting, all that camo netting (as proposed by Lightray), smoke screens and putting everything possible under the roof should be enough. Also, if flyers can’t see in dark, do maintenance and moving defenders / changing arrangement of defenses at night. Keep them guessing.

High altitude bombing attacks. Make everything fireproof. As much roofing as possible, with significant overhang. Actually, now that I think about it, design similiar to japanese castle would be quite effective. Not many options of counterattack though. Possibly catapults or other siege machines could launch buckets of small stones far enough to reach attackers.

Low altitude bombing / attacking with ranged weapons / skirmishing. Here comes almost everything we had in this thread. Smokescreens, nets and wires, fireworks. Lots and lots of archers.Actually, if all these defenses ar ready, then attackers are at serious disadvantage at that range. They can’t use heavy shields of armors, they have only limited number of projectiles on them, they can’t use terrain to hide, they need to watch if there is some net in their path etc. Meanwhile defenders can concentrate on making pincushions from flyers.

Landing and direct assault. Again - nets, roofs with spikes, forest of poles where there is no roof. Make them impale themselves during landing. Also placing archers on towers that overlook whole castle. Most defenses here are in design. Leave no opening. Where you need entrance, make it heavy doors, possibly doubled. Should be enough - they can take battering ram with them, so can’t really break through solid doors. Oh, and if some windows are large enough for humanoid to fit, put some gratings in them.

Overall, with enough archers and proper design of castle, aerial troops can’t do much beside scouting, correcting artillery fire from safe distance and drawing defenders attention away during critical moments of assault.

Nothing that you wrote could or did offend me in any way, shape, or form. (If I am who you are concerned about). :slight_smile: Cheers, Apollyon.

OK, I can’t believe I’m spending precious brain energy thinking about this, but here’s my thoughts:

I’m assuming that the threat is flying humanoids as part of a larger army with lots of ground troops, so you’ll still want traditional high stone walls.

Then, basically, treat the roofs the same way castles treat the outer walls: put stone between you and the attacker, and make sure that every outside edge of stone can be fired on by a defender. The fighting areas on top of the curtain walls will be roofed with stone, and have walls on the front and rear with loopholes to shoot through. Towers on the ends of the walls would allow fire on the roof of the wall. The tower’s fighting platform is also roofed in stone, with two turrents sticking up that can cover the tower’s roof as well as each other’s roofs. The roofs of the great hall or whatever would all be slightly below the level of a tower in the corner that can fire down on the main roof.

For castles that aren’t already all connected (for instance, the classic double ring of curtain walls), you’d have to have covered ways connecting them so troops can advance or retreat without being exposed from above. You’d have to make sure the ways are still exposed to fire from the inner walls, so attackers can’t use them for shelter if the outer wall is abandoned.

If for some reason you need a doorway to the roof, you do it the same way as the gates on the ground: the doorway is set back (in this case, down), so the door is covered by fire from the walls on either side. And probably, behind the door, there’s a stairway down ending in another strong door, again surrounded by walls with holes so that defenders on the other side can do nasty things to anyone trying to force open the second door.

You would want some kind of sally-port in case the defenders have enough flyers to match up with the attackers, but that could just be a door into a courtyard, not necessarily to the roof.

Roofs would all have drainage arranged so that noxious liquids (burning oil, essence of rotting animal, etc.) would be directed to safe places. Ideally roofs would also all be steep and slippery, but it’s more important that they be covered by missle fire. Slanted roofs to help deflect medium-sized rocks might be useful. If the enemy has a captive roc or large dragon that can drop very large rocks on the castle, then you do what real-life castles did when the attackers managed to build a giant trebuchet: either counter-attack to take it out before it gets used, or surrender.

I don’t think spikes would be very useful in most cases: flyers can just hover and put their foot down carefully next to the spike. And, historically, metal was way too expensive to use that way. After all, if metal was that cheap, real castles would have covered the ground approaches with spikes and barbed wire. But historically scarce metal was best put towards more arrowheads. Wire might be useful to protect a small key area, but mostly I think it would get in the way of defender’s fire as much as anything else (though I’m assuming attackers can hover or fly slowly. If you know they’re limited to fairly high speed flight, then wires and barrage balloons start making some sense).

I do like the idea of noxious fumes, though the vision obscuring effects of smoke generally hurt the defenders more than the attackers.

Well, the main purpose of all that netting, spikes and wires is to make flyers hover or fly slowly. Then instead of fast and hard to hit they become big, stationary, exposed targets.

ETA - I seem to remember reading about some kind of temple or palace (in Thailand? somewhere in Asia) with roof actually covered with metal spikes. Does somebody remember that one?

Sounds like you should.

Few people are willing to admit they call it “tarnwire,” for obvious reasons. :smiley:

While I don’t know that I can add anything to what everyone else is adding, one thing did pop into my head when I read the OP and thought about the structure.

You said it was a bridge that was built up and fortified, right? Well how are you protecting the underside of the bridge? What about the support structures? Why bother storming the castle if I can bring down the whole thing by taking out two supports underneath it? Especially if the defenders haven’t put any sort of defense against that in place.

You’d never hit a moving aerial target with a ballista. Hard enough to hit a ship with one.

Well, it’s pretty difficult to get close enough to do that, and there are cannon batteries, murder holes et cetera in place.

Shouldn’t matter, should it? Destroying the bridge would be a net gain for the defenders, who would rather see the bridge destroyed than taken.

I love the idea of fireworks. That’d be a huge disruption and deterrent, especially at range. However, smokescreens would be a gain for the attackers, wouldn’t it? Making it tough to spot the incoming attack.

Probably what I would do would be to build the castle into the side of a cliff. Construction would mostly consist of boring, rather than building.

On Earth, this probably wouldn’t be practical since you’d need light, but lots of fires would smoke the whole place up. But with magic, you could presumably use some sort of magical light source, and have just a few fireplaces with chimneys that ran to the surface for cooking.