Defending a Dog Attack

Factual Questions
41

So if I ever visit Tibet, I’m going as heavily armed as I can. Duly noted.

A few extra layers around your sacrificial arm, if it’s going to spare damage will probably do so simply because most dogs really just don’t want to attack you. Also, clothing can throw them off–how often do you hear of dog bites that were thankfully minor because the dog mostly ripped at the pantsleg instead of the leg.

My attitude is pretty much that a full-on large dog attack is one of life’s “You’re screwed, big-headed clawless mammal!” moments. Severe damage is pretty much guaranteed, but you can at least hope to hurt the attacking animal badly. The willingness to do that is probably going to do more to make a dog who’s thinking of it, to back off before the attack. Panicking and running is just likely to push it in the wrong direction.

There’s also the wilderness bear-survival technique. To survive, you don’t have to be able to outrun the bear. You just have to be able to outrun whoever you’re with. Always walk with a gimpy acquaintance. :slight_smile:

42

The difference is this a predatory attack or is the animal defending its turf or young? A predatory attack by bear is not one you want to play dead with, same with any true predatory attack, you just make an easier meal.

43

We keep getting a recording from Miss Cleo, the telephone psychic, several times a week (3 days in a row recently). Now, if this was a normal telemarketer I would ask to be placed on their do not call list - but this is a recording, there is nobody to talk to! What the hell am I supposed to do about this? I only get about 4 hours of sleep a day during the weeks and am getting sick of it being interrupted by that bitch with the fake accent.

44

Sorry, that was supposed to be a new post, not a reply. 8^)

45

You actually can hold a dog’s mouth open (remember I did it with the german shepard… who coincidently was named “grizzly”), but only if you get the bottom jaw, jam it into his own chest, and hold onto the squirmin’ mother for dear life. If you grab the top jaw, yeah, say good-bye to your fingers. Like I said - I too thought it wouldn’t work until I tried it, the bottom jaw is the one a dog moves to bite… and you can pin it down if you’re mean and fast (and lucky). Try it gently on your pet dog - it doesn’t really hurt them; they’ll flop their tounges around then start squirming - let 'em go then.
BUT, as I also confessed, even a small dog will quickly wiggle away and come back really hard as tsunamisurfer described. That combined with it being highly unlikely that you’d have the timing and prior experience to get the hold you need leads me to suggest forgetting the idea unless you’re willing to take the chance of loosing some fingers. As others have pointed out, your worst enemy when under attack is panic, and unless you’ve spent many hours in real-life or near real-life encounters, you’ll most likely end up trembling and flailing about like a child while your cunning defense plan crumbles. Even hardened criminals who would kill a police officer start crying and bellaring when they threaten to release the dog - just watch COPS to see this phenomenom.

46

The padding stops the teeth, sailor, but the jaws still crush. If you know anyone who “does” Shutzhound training, ask for stories. More than one dog has bit down on the padded arm and broke the bone underneath. It doesn’t happen very often, but it’s not ungeard of.

Of Police Dog trainers. (A variation of Shutzhound, sort of Shutzhound Plus.)
-Rue.

47

First, in the last post that should be "…not unheard of."

Worst Case Dog Attack

“'Bye Honey. I’m going out for a walk now that it’s dusk. Don’t worry about me, I’ll be naked dripping with beef juice.” A you walk around cluelessly. A big dog, a Pit Bull- no, a Rottie- no, an armour-plated dog with a bazooka sticking out of it’s face (make that two bazooka dogs) decides to eat you. Quietly the first dog comes around your front. “La la la… what a cute doggie. Let me pet you…” Equally quietly the second dog comes up behind you. The dog behind you bites your ass off. As you go down, the dog in front goes for your throat. You manage to get an arm in the way, so it chews that off. The second dog swallows what’s left of your ass and goes for your throat. It has to chew your other arm off. The first dog kills you.

Moral: dogs hunt very effectively in packs.
Scary Dog Attack Story #2
(see China Guy’s post)

Moral: stay out of Tibet.

Scarier variation- China Guy was alone during the attack. He got eaten.

Moral: if you DO go to Tibet, keep professional Dog Whackers around.
Usual Dog Attack Story That Makes The Paper.

Big, mean dog with flames in it’s eyes growls and menaces for 20 minutes. It takes a tremendous 12 foot leap right over the camera and starts to maul our hero. The dog’s tail is wagging like crazy, and it looks like our hero is holding the dog’s face to his chest. He finally flips the dog over his back and down a rocky cliff. “Aaaaaaaaahh!” screams the dog the whole way down, and bursts into flame at the bottom… no wait… that’s T.V.

The Real Attack:
The Manly-Man Dog Du Jour (Now it’s Pit Bulls and Rotties. It used to be German Shepherds and Dobbies. Chows were in there too. Wolf hybrids are becoming more popular, but they usually live in a bunker and don’t get out much) escapes its solitary confinment. Its never been socialized, and it thinks everyone wants it to bite something. It picks its target, something easy, like a kid or a little old lady. Or something flashy, like a jogger. It comes in growling, a big dominance display. (Rush it now, and you have about a 4 in 5 chance of running it off.) Teeth bared, it stalks in closer, about 10 feet, working up its courage. (Mace it, mace it now! With bear spray! That you don’t have, rats!) In a sudden rush it comes right at you, rearing up and pushing you down. (It plants its feet right at yours, you flinch back off balance. You’ve done half of the dog’s work.) The dog comes in snapping, trying for any hold it can get. You start flailing with your arms, trying to get away. You panic. The dog bites your arm, your chest. Its after your throat. If it gets there, you’re dust.

But most dogs are like house cats. They want to kill, but they don’t know how. They “play” with you. They just don’t know what to do. (Homicidal Maniac Pit Bulls do know how to kill. But that takes some teaching.) Generally the dog gives up, or gets frightened off before you’re dead.

Moral: most dog attacks are oportunistic. A crazy dog gets loose. And most attacks are by intact male dogs out to establish some territory.
The Usual Dog Attack

It’s just some little dog. Mummy’s Widdow Bay-bee! It gets spoiled terribly. A poodle, a Westie, most likely a cocker spaniel (these things are nuts). It thinks it’s just Top Dog.

You walk by, and the dog goes into a frothing rage. “How dare you! Walk by MY yard! Bastard! Take that!” And they give you a nasty bite on the calf. It probably needs a couple of stitches. No one dies. No news crews cover the event. No big deal.

The dog keeps this up till it bites some kid’s nose off. The kid gets reconstructive surgery, the dog gets put down, and an old lady wonders how this could ever happen. Muffy was always such a good dog.

Moral: ask any mailman you happen to see, “what’s the worst dog?”
“One smaller than your knee.” (To the tune of the tuna jingle)
Best Case Dog Attack

You have on hockey padding and golf shoes. A little bitty weiner dog menaces your ankles. It doesn’t stand a chance.

Moral: like this story needs one.

48

There are three techniques of importance (I will list them in increasing importance) when dealing with an attacking dog:

  1. The back. This is a sacrifice move. It requires you to get bit quite possibly very badly. It requires absolute indomitable spirit, total calm and a very high tolerance for pain, otherwise you will get bit for nothing. When the dog latches onto your forearm or leg immediately “grab” the dog with your other arm by sweeping it under the body of the dog and scooping the dog up. Then lower the dog hard onto a raised knee. This will almost undoubtedly break the dogs back. If it is still gripping your arm put the dog down and kick it in the throat. It will not able to move very well with the damaged or broken back and this should be easy to accomplish. You will get bit a lot doing this, even quite possibly in the face as you must grip the dog close to your body to make sure it does not escape. I do not strongly recommend this unless the dog is a wild dog or attack dog in which case it may be your only hope.

  2. The nose. A dog’s nose is very sensitive to strikes. A “normal” dog who is attacking to protect his territory may be warded off by this; however, an attack dog and even most guard dogs will not be swayed by this. Do NOT try to hit the dog with your hand, you will miss. Dogs have very good reflexes and will instinctively dog any blow coming for thier eyes (just like you will). Kicks have better reach, more power and any footwear will provide some (minor) protection against any counter bites. However, if you do not know how to kick you will simply be putting yourself at a disadvantage so do not do this.

  3. The side. Dogs have weak sides. Their ribs will break pretty easily and they have a tendency of taking internal injuries from blows to the side. A swift front kick will work. Martial arts can also use round kicks. Crescent kicks to the dog’s head can expose the side for a follow up kick. Normal dogs are especially susceptable to blows to the side, and will almost certainly flee. The only real difficulty here is in actually landing the blow. The dog is not going to willing expose his side to you. You can sacrifice one leg to get the kick. Extend your leg letting the dog get a grip on it. Then pivot on that leg (yes, unless the dog is very big you should be able to do this) and come around with a round kick to the ribs.

Tactically speaking, before you are attacked (i.e. when confronted with a hostile dog) remain calm and put a serious but non-threatening face (for parent this is easy, pretend you are scolding a child). Keep your eyes locked on the dog. Back away but do not run (things that run away are prey). In a commanding voice order the dog to stay. The dog may confuse you for his master.

When under attack, still remain calm. If you put up a fight the dog will eventually decide that this is too much hassle (well, except attack dogs in which case see technique #2 above). Put on a threatening face. The dog will hopefully read your intent to hurt or kill it as the fight continues. Order the dog to stop in a commanding voice. Call out for help. A dog is much easier to overcome by two people.

If you see somebody under attack by a dog, call 911 if at all possible. Call out for help. Use technique #3 above.

49

That should be see technique #1 above when under attack by an attack dog not technique #2.

50

You have one helluva bed to be able to get 1-4 inches of tight padding from a pillowcase. Prey, how many people are walking down the street wearing “very heavy padding”? Don’t know about you, but I give up on down parkas sometime in July.

Rue is correct. The bone-crushing power of some dogs is phenomenal.

51

The absolute easiest way to defend against a dog attack is to climb. Trees are great, but climbing anything will do the trick. Dogs aren’t so good a climbing. Except in rare instances of really intense training, they can’t climb at all. If someone has trained their dog to climb fences and ladders, then 99% chance they trained it not to attack you for no reason. Climb a tree, climb over a fence, just climb anything. It’s one our only human instincts, and it can serve you well. And if you’re not fit enough to climb, then you’re definately less fit to face a dog in hand to hand combat. That’s when you grab a nice stick or rock. Also, keep in mind that the vast majority of dogs that come running up to you just want to bark at you. Don’t make eye contact in those cases (but do watch the dog from the corner of your eye).

52

I started this thread with the best intentions (eradicating ignorance), but it has only succeeded in totally creeping me out. It has also succeeded in becoming a two-page GQ thread, which I don’t think I’ve ever seen before, so I guess in that - I am proud. But I digress.

I love dogs, but the more I read this the more I feel like becoming “Dirty Jack - The Canine Vigilante” (do that in a Clint Eastwood voice for best effect).

Seriously, there have been a few local reported attacks, there are a few dogs in my neighborhood of questionable character, and I think in general I’m just losing my faith in the humans who train them.

I think I’m gonna start carrying a freakin’ machete where ever I go.

53

Prevent the attack if possible.
Do NOT stare down a dog. This is a dominance contest.
The dog may wish to move the contest to the next level and
fight. Stand still and avoid eye contact. Slowly make fists to protect your fingers. Usually, a dog will accept this posture as a sign that you are not hostile or dangerous. They sniff you awhile and leave.

 Make yourself appear larger. This technique is used throughout the animal kingdom. Spread jackets etc. If I hold out the sides of my trenchcoat, I appear 3 times larger. If the dog does attack, there's a chance it will mistakenly attack clothing instead of flesh.

If you’re going to ram a hand its mouth,I recommend putting a shoe on the hand. The tops of my sneakers would shred pretty quickly, but the thick rubber sole would offer protection to at least part of my hand. I admit I haven’t tried this. But, if you have the time, it seems better than sticking bare flesh in the mouth an angry dog.

If a dog bites and holds, push. If you pull, the dog keeps holding on. If you push, you can activate a gag reflex.

 If a dog is locked on your arm, and seems intent on staying there, bite. Lift your arm up and shake it to keep the dog focused on holding the arm. Once the dog's head is up, its neck is exposed. Bite the windpipe and hold on. True, human teeth are nowhere near as nasty as a dog's but a determined human can rip out a trachea.

Lastly, never underestimate a weiner dog! I had a miniature dachshund for sixteen years. They are fast, agile, and can leap surprisingly high. A weiner dog is incapable of crushing an arm, but quite able to take finger, toes, noses and ears if pissed off. Fortunately, Goliath was always more interested in using these abilities to snatch food we thought was safe and then escaping capture and punishment.
54

>> The padding stops the teeth, sailor, but the jaws still crush. If you know anyone who “does” Shutzhound training, ask for stories. More than one dog has bit down on the padded arm and broke the bone underneath. It doesn’t happen very often, but it’s not ungeard of.

Wait a minute. You said it was useless. I did not say it was a magic solution which will be like an invisible shield which will defend you from bears. I am saying it is not useless by any definition of useless and your post confirms that. It may not be unheard of that a big dog could break your arm in spite of heavy padding but it would be rare. My point is that wrapping your arm in heavy padding does provide very effective defense against dog bites.

And let’s not get silly about the pillow case as I never suggested it. If your scenario involves me facing a menacing dog, and I am only wearing shorts, and there are no trees to climb, no place to hide and I can’t run because I have a limp… I have to conclude you really want that dog to get me and bite me.

But some of us often wear articles of clothing (like a jacket) which can very efficiently provide good padding to your left forearm. Leave your left sleeve on and wrap the rest of your jacket around your forearm. This will provide some thick padding. Are you telling me this is useless? I don’t think so. You just admitted it is a very effective defense against the teeth. And what about crushing? You have just admitted it would be rare. What if the dog has rabies and gives it to you just by spitting in your direction? Come on! Heavy padding is an effective defense against dog bites. Since the dog will go for your forearm if you present it to it, you only need to pad your arm and many articles of clothing can be used. Maybe also even a newspaper or other things.

Dog training videos show very convincingly padding is a very effective defense against dog bites.

55

When I said “this posture”, I meant not making eye
contact and standing still with your hands at your sides. The only reason to make fists is to protect your fingers if the dog does attack. I suggest doing it slowly since many dogs know that making a fist is a sign of aggression in humans, and of course any quick movement may activate a prey reflex or convince the dog that you are about to attack

56

I hear what you’re saying but what did you expect? When one animal is intent on tearing you to shreds and the other animal needs to defend itself the results aren’t likely to be pretty (more likely to be fairly gruesome in fact).

Mentioned earlier by yourself and several others dog maulings do occur and seem to be getting more frequent (although that may not bear up in statistics and merely be an artifact of greater media coverage…I don’t know). Certainly most of us at one point or another have had scary dog encounters.

So, discussing here how to protect yourself against a dog attack can help even if the details aren’t pretty. If you can keep yourself from turning into a blubbering piece of meat when faced with a snarling, drooling Mastiff then maybe some of this stuff will help you out.

To Summarize:

  1. Avoid a fight if possible. DO NOT RUN unless you are CERTAIN you are in easy reach of safety (i.e. standing in a door or under a tree). Dogs are fast. Do not underestimate the speed of a dog…they were made to catch other things a lot faster than you. If a safe place is fairly nearby move slowly towards it and always face the dog…turning your back is an invitation to attack. Also call for help if some is nearby. Dogs aren’t stupid and can assess their odds pretty well and will skeedaddle if things look against them.

    Before a fight occurs the dog will size you up and weigh its chances. Most dogs aren’t looking for a fight. If you appear to be more trouble than the dog had bargained for then they may back down. Try a commanding voice (deep and steady) and generally try to give an impression of confidence and size. If you can throw things then do it. The old “dogs smell fear” thing may sound stupid but they really do have a sense of this and will take advantage if they think you are wimping out.

    Remember, the dog has teeth, claws and speed on its side. You have brains which is much better if you can keep your shit wired tight and not panic. It may be hard but if you panic you have thrown your best weapon out the window (your smarts) and now the dog holds all the cards and you will lose.

  2. If a dog attack seems imminent resign yourself to getting hurt…maybe even badly. A natural response is to try and fend off the dog so you don’t get bit. The dog will merely keep at it till it hits something vital (usually your neck). You WILL get bit…period (unless you’re Rambo or Jacki Chan or something).

    This is basically why you present your arm (your weak arm…for most people their left). At least you are choosing what gets bit and in this case it is the least damaging to you and affords you the best position you can hope for to fight back from (better than your leg where the dog can knock you down or worse…hamstring you, your face, your throat or your abdomen).

    If you can wrap something, anything, around your arm prior to the attack then do it. It may not help but then again it might and generally anything is better than nothing. Just don’t be under an illusion that your jacket is like armor plating. It’s still gonna hurt when you get bit so you may as well face up to it.

    Many options have been mentioned as to what to do next. You can take your pick but let’s face it: At this point with a monster shredding your arm you are likely to be a screaming freak anyway. The only real advice I can give that may stay with you is do SOMETHING and do it HARD. At this point you should be working under the assumption that you must kill the dog and you must do it as quickly as you can. Get vicious, get mean, get dirty…this one is for all the money so no half-measures. General punching and flailing probably won’t work. Target your attacks for the weak spots. Weak spots on the dog (if you can remember them at that point) are the eyes, throat, legs, abdomen and balls (if it has them). My guess is the throat and legs offer your best chances if you can’t kick him hard in the nuts.
    Hope that helps. Did I miss anything?

57

He’s right. Dachsunds (IIRC) were originally bred to go after badgers. Badgers are majorly serious SOB’s. I’ve seen (on TV) badgers facing down full grown bears. The bear could almost certainly take the badger but the badger sends a very clear message that it is a helluva lot more trouble than it is worth. Any dog that takes one of those on is deserving of respect.

Of course, the weiner dogs of today are shadows of what they once were (maybe half their former size for one thing). Nevertheless some of their former selves is still in them and they can be plucky, tough little customers. Sure, if I had to make a choice I’d take an attack from a Dachsund before a Pit Bull but the Dachsund can still cause damage.

Another breed (or set of breeds) that are like this are Terriers. They have a big dog mindset in a little dog body. I don’t think they have a clue that they are small and pretty much take the stance that they can kick anyone or anything’s ass if they have to. A cousin of mine had a Terrier and a Great (Grand?) Pyrennes. The Pyrennes was HUGE (nearly 10x the size of the Terrier) yet the Terrier consistently pushed the bigger dog around.

58

tsunamisurfer:

Once again, nobody actually reads posts. I’m the one who brought up the pillowcase, but I never suggested wrapping it around your arm:

You’re arguing against something nobody suggested.

59

Johnny Angel, after your post, tsunamisurfer, in this post said

My response was to that statement which I believe was prompted by my suggestion of wrapping some article of clothing around your forearm and your pillowcase post. I think the “pillowcase” part is not important. I do not know many people who walk around carrying pillowcases. I think what we’re really discussing is whether wrapping your arm in an article of heavy clothing (such as a jacket) would provide some defense (which would be in response to what I said and tsunamisurfer said, not in response to anything you posted.

Maybe if you hae an umbrella or other object you can get the dog to go for it. Maybe if you’re lucky you’ll have a cape and find out it’s not really a big dog after all, but a charging bull. :slight_smile:

60

Someone mentioned big-dog minded terriers so I had to relate this story:

I once lived in a house filled with dogs. One of them was a full-grown female Rott that was unmistakeably the top of the food chain. My aging little mutt terrier and it never got along. Anyway one day indoors, my terrier, despite being neutered and roughly a tenth her size, had the idea that he’d try to mount the Rott. You can guess what comes next; she exploded and boxed him into a corner in what must have been half a second. I was convinced that he was dead. But lo, when we got her off him, he got up, shrugged, and wandered off like nothing happened.

The only thing I would add to the fight-dogs advice is to remember to turn your hips when you raise that sacrifical arm, lest a smarter dog decide your crotch is an easier target. :wink: