# Defending someone in a military tribunal... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 14, 2006, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-someone-in-a-military-tribunal/372706 "2006-09-14T16:11:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2006, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-someone-in-a-military-tribunal/372706/21 "2006-09-16T02:15:30Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] I’m curious as to why you–and other people–would think a commanding officer would be enraged at a military officer performing his duty. [/QUOTE] I’m not saying it _would_ happen. But, humans being humans, it _could_ happen. And it seems that both the Army/Air Force and the Navy systems have a system of checks and balances in place to reduce the possibility of damage to the military justice system if it were to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2006, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-someone-in-a-military-tribunal/372706/22 "2006-09-16T04:06:33Z")
Have you ever seen any political or military authority come out after a trial and say, “the defendant was clearly innocent but thanks to a skilled prosecutor we were able to overlook that and convict him anyway”? No, of course not. The legal system is based on the principle that justice is impartial. If the defendant is found innocent, the judge comes out and says, “this is proof that the legal system works and I’m a great judge because we set this innocent man free.” And if the defendant is found guily, the judge comes out and says, “this is proof that the legal system works and I’m a great judge because we convicted this guilty man.” You see? No matter what the outcome is, the judge and the court are always on the winning side. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2006, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-someone-in-a-military-tribunal/372706/23 "2006-09-16T13:51:26Z")
[QUOTE=XaMcQ] I apologize for being a snark. But I still think anything that doesn’t always work should be thought of as at least in need of repair. And I think we’ve hijacked this thread way off the original subject and if nobody has anything factual about military tribunals to add, we should let it die and possibly start a seperate thread about the justice system in Great Debates, where it belongs. [/QUOTE] First, you need to make sure your repairs are actually better than the basic system. There seem to be sufficient checks and distances to satusfy almost any problem. The major thing to remember is that, more or less, military justice is almost identical to civilian justice, except that the caselaw and precedents are slightly harsher and more focused on the grounds of military discipline. ---
**Author:** ![FormerMarineGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/65b543/32.png) [@FormerMarineGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FormerMarineGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2006, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-someone-in-a-military-tribunal/372706/24 "2006-09-16T14:00:23Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] According to the legal system, innocent people get exonerated and guilty people get convicted - either outcome is proof that the system is “in the right”. The system doesn’t have a favorite side. [/QUOTE] BS. I personally know military lawyers, former and present. I know people who have been court-martialed and have sat in a few court-martials. They are definitely one-sided. It is pretty much known in the military that when someone makes it to the court-martial level, they are pretty much guilty. (I am sure someone can provide stats showing conviction levels of military courts versus civilian courts). Although there are some military defense lawyers who will probably fight to the death for their clients (usually the ones closing in on their EAS/obligation of service), most just go through the ropes and will attempt to fight for a plea deal. They are super overwhelmed with cases. Perhaps it is different for the tribunals, maybe they are given just a few cases to divote more time to, but I doubt it. The system does have a favorite side, and I would be more than willing to share facts and specifics if anyone is interested. Enough of the hijack! SORRY. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2006, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-someone-in-a-military-tribunal/372706/25 "2006-09-16T15:07:01Z")
FormerMarineGuy: Would you care to provide some facts as opposed to, say…your posting above? ---
**Author:** ![FormerMarineGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/65b543/32.png) [@FormerMarineGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FormerMarineGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2006, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-someone-in-a-military-tribunal/372706/26 "2006-09-16T15:19:48Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] FormerMarineGuy: Would you care to provide some facts as opposed to, say…your posting above? [/QUOTE] I will try, I was just at work and had to rant a little. I have had some personal experience with this, with friends going to court-martials and myself seeing how the system works firsthand. I apologize for my rants, but stand by what I said. Seeing things firsthand and knowing military lawyers, it is rare that people are found not guilty of all counts at any form of court-martial. Off I go to find statistics to back it up. ---
**Author:** ![FormerMarineGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/65b543/32.png) [@FormerMarineGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FormerMarineGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2006, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-someone-in-a-military-tribunal/372706/27 "2006-09-16T15:31:30Z")
[QUOTE=FormerMarineGuy] I will try, I was just at work and had to rant a little. I have had some personal experience with this, with friends going to court-martials and myself seeing how the system works firsthand. I apologize for my rants, but stand by what I said. Seeing things firsthand and knowing military lawyers, it is rare that people are found not guilty of all counts at any form of court-martial. Off I go to find statistics to back it up. [/QUOTE] My Adobe Acrobat is messed up. I believe this is the link. [http://www.armfor.uscourts.gov/Annual.htm](http://www.armfor.uscourts.gov/Annual.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-someone-in-a-military-tribunal/372706/28 "2006-09-16T22:37:42Z")
Based on your personal experience, do you feel that the high conviction rate you observed was a result of a biased court system or of an efficient investigation system? Do you believe some of the people who were convicted were not actually guilty of the charges? ---
**Author:** ![FormerMarineGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/65b543/32.png) [@FormerMarineGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FormerMarineGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2006, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-someone-in-a-military-tribunal/372706/29 "2006-09-16T22:57:42Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] Based on your personal experience, do you feel that the high conviction rate you observed was a result of a biased court system or of an efficient investigation system? Do you believe some of the people who were convicted were not actually guilty of the charges? [/QUOTE] Perhaps this would be another thread and I really hate to hijack. I think the military investigation system is the best, bar none. The guys are great at gathering information, as they really have no limits to the tactics they can use to gather. The high conviction rate, IMO, is based on a court system that is basically guilty until proven innocent. Also, there seems to be little motivation for the defense attorney to get you off. With the burden of a substantial amount of cases on their backs, they are better off trying to plea you out. See, the government will stack a lot of charges on a military member (Article 134 of the UCMJ is basically a catch-all) knowing that some of them will stick. So a young Private who got drunk and beat up the Sergeant, will get assault, disrespect to an NCO, drunk and disorderly, underage drinking. There also might be some base orders in effect (not allowed out after 10 pm, not allowed to a certain club, etc.), so they can throw in 10 violations of a base order, which is chargable in the military. Now, when the investigators do their thing, while talking to people might uncover that the Private had sex with some other guys wife a year ago (adultery), and when talking to her might found out he got a blowjob (sodomy). Next they find out he bounced a check at the local PX (chargable) and so on and so on. I have seen cover ups and I have seen cases and sentences decided prior to a military member even touching foot and saying his side of the story. I love the military and have spoken highly of it in previous threads, so do not think I am ranting and going all crazy because of my dislike for the military or whatever. These are my views that I can back with 100% true stories. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-someone-in-a-military-tribunal/372706/30 "2006-09-17T03:22:26Z")
The point I was trying to make is that if you’ve got really top notch investigators who arrest the actual guilty person 90% of the time, then there’s nothing wrong with a court system that’s convicting 90% of the defendants before it (assuming obviously that it’s the same 90%). A high conviction rate is only a problem when innocent people are being accused and tried. Now if XaMcQ or somebody else can present credible cites that a significant percentage of people convicted by military courts were actually innocent then I’ll concede that a problem exists. And if it can be shown that the percentage of false convictions if significantly higher than the percentage of false acquitals, I’ll concede there’s a bias towards the prosecution. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-someone-in-a-military-tribunal/372706/31 "2006-09-17T07:51:52Z")
[QUOTE=FormerMarineGuy] Perhaps this would be another thread and I really hate to hijack. I think the military investigation system is the best, bar none. The guys are great at gathering information, as they really have no limits to the tactics they can use to gather. [/quote] That is incorrect. The US Constitution still applies to members of the Armed Services. > [@](#): > > The high conviction rate, IMO, is based on a court system that is basically guilty until proven innocent. On what do you base that opinion? There is a presumption of innocence for the accused. It’s the government’s (the prosecutor) job to prove to the jury (or the judge in a judge only court-martial) the charges. > [@](#): > > Also, there seems to be little motivation for the defense attorney to get you off. Except, of course, for the whole matter of it being his duty and that he bound by federal law, by Service regulations, and by his Code of Ethics to represent the accused zealously and competently. > [@](#): > > With the burden of a substantial amount of cases on their backs, they are better off trying to plea you out. They or you? > [@](#): > > See, the government will stack a lot of charges on a military member (Article 134 of the UCMJ is basically a catch-all) knowing that some of them will stick. It 's an offense to make false charges against someone. And your comment about Article 134 demonstrates your ignorance of the military legal system. > [@](#): > > So a young Private who got drunk and beat up the Sergeant, will get assault, disrespect to an NCO, drunk and disorderly, underage drinking. And none of those charges is bogus except for the underage drinking. That would be charges as disobeying a lawful order or regulation. > [@](#): > > There also might be some base orders in effect (not allowed out after 10 pm, not allowed to a certain club, etc.), so they can throw in 10 violations of a base order, which is chargable in the military. Now, when the investigators do their thing, while talking to people might uncover that the Private had sex with some other guys wife a year ago (adultery), and when talking to her might found out he got a blowjob (sodomy). Next they find out he bounced a check at the local PX (chargable) and so on and so on. First rule of holes is good advice for you. > [@](#): > > I have seen cover ups and I have seen cases and sentences decided prior to a military member even touching foot and saying his side of the story. Fact or opinion? > [@](#): > > I love the military and have spoken highly of it in previous threads, so do not think I am ranting and going all crazy because of my dislike for the military or whatever. These are my views that I can back with 100% true stories. Or they’re just your opinions based on your mistaken views of the military justice system. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-someone-in-a-military-tribunal/372706/32 "2006-09-17T07:54:29Z")
I neglected to mention that the UCMJ requires what’s called an Article 32 Investigation prior to a court-martial. That investigation examines the charges and the evidence presented to determine if the case should be adjudicated at a court-martial, disposed of at an Article 15 hearing, or dismissed. A more accurate portrayal of the conviction percentage in the military would include all such cases and not just those taken to trial. ---
**Author:** ![FormerMarineGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/65b543/32.png) [@FormerMarineGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FormerMarineGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-someone-in-a-military-tribunal/372706/33 "2006-09-17T18:00:58Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] I neglected to mention that the UCMJ requires what’s called an Article 32 Investigation prior to a court-martial. That investigation examines the charges and the evidence presented to determine if the case should be adjudicated at a court-martial, disposed of at an Article 15 hearing, or dismissed. A more accurate portrayal of the conviction percentage in the military would include all such cases and not just those taken to trial. [/QUOTE] You are definitely senior to me on this board, no doubt, and I do not want to get into an argument with anyone in GQ. Perhaps I should start a thread in IMHO, or someone else can. We could go back and forth all day about the way it is supposed to be, and the way it is. Perhaps I am a little biased on this from personal experience, and GQ is not the place for anything biased. But I 100% stand by everything I said, as I am sure you do, also. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-someone-in-a-military-tribunal/372706/34 "2006-09-17T23:17:43Z")
And we could both, instead of me, be supplying actual facts. This is, after all, General Questions. IMHO is quite possibly the forum you’re looking for. Of course I’m standing 100% behind my postings. I posted facts. So you say you’ve seen coverups. Did you report them? Do you have evidence? Or maybe the other forum you’re looking for is IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2006, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-someone-in-a-military-tribunal/372706/35 "2006-09-17T23:25:50Z")
Drat! Here’s the corrected posting: And of the two of us, we could both, instead of just me, be posting facts. This is, after all, GQ. As you say, IMHO is quite possibly the forum you’re looking for. Of course I’m standing 100% behind my postings. I posted facts. So you say you’ve seen ocver-ups. Did you report them? Do you have evbidence? Or maybe the other forum you’re looking for is The BBQ Pit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-someone-in-a-military-tribunal/372706.md?page=1)