I’m not saying it would happen. But, humans being humans, it could happen. And it seems that both the Army/Air Force and the Navy systems have a system of checks and balances in place to reduce the possibility of damage to the military justice system if it were to happen.
Have you ever seen any political or military authority come out after a trial and say, “the defendant was clearly innocent but thanks to a skilled prosecutor we were able to overlook that and convict him anyway”? No, of course not. The legal system is based on the principle that justice is impartial. If the defendant is found innocent, the judge comes out and says, “this is proof that the legal system works and I’m a great judge because we set this innocent man free.” And if the defendant is found guily, the judge comes out and says, “this is proof that the legal system works and I’m a great judge because we convicted this guilty man.” You see? No matter what the outcome is, the judge and the court are always on the winning side.
First, you need to make sure your repairs are actually better than the basic system. There seem to be sufficient checks and distances to satusfy almost any problem.
The major thing to remember is that, more or less, military justice is almost identical to civilian justice, except that the caselaw and precedents are slightly harsher and more focused on the grounds of military discipline.
BS. I personally know military lawyers, former and present. I know people who have been court-martialed and have sat in a few court-martials. They are definitely one-sided. It is pretty much known in the military that when someone makes it to the court-martial level, they are pretty much guilty. (I am sure someone can provide stats showing conviction levels of military courts versus civilian courts).
Although there are some military defense lawyers who will probably fight to the death for their clients (usually the ones closing in on their EAS/obligation of service), most just go through the ropes and will attempt to fight for a plea deal. They are super overwhelmed with cases. Perhaps it is different for the tribunals, maybe they are given just a few cases to divote more time to, but I doubt it.
The system does have a favorite side, and I would be more than willing to share facts and specifics if anyone is interested.
Enough of the hijack! SORRY.
FormerMarineGuy: Would you care to provide some facts as opposed to, say…your posting above?
I will try, I was just at work and had to rant a little. I have had some personal experience with this, with friends going to court-martials and myself seeing how the system works firsthand. I apologize for my rants, but stand by what I said. Seeing things firsthand and knowing military lawyers, it is rare that people are found not guilty of all counts at any form of court-martial.
Off I go to find statistics to back it up.
My Adobe Acrobat is messed up. I believe this is the link.
Based on your personal experience, do you feel that the high conviction rate you observed was a result of a biased court system or of an efficient investigation system? Do you believe some of the people who were convicted were not actually guilty of the charges?
Perhaps this would be another thread and I really hate to hijack.
I think the military investigation system is the best, bar none. The guys are great at gathering information, as they really have no limits to the tactics they can use to gather.
The high conviction rate, IMO, is based on a court system that is basically guilty until proven innocent. Also, there seems to be little motivation for the defense attorney to get you off. With the burden of a substantial amount of cases on their backs, they are better off trying to plea you out. See, the government will stack a lot of charges on a military member (Article 134 of the UCMJ is basically a catch-all) knowing that some of them will stick. So a young Private who got drunk and beat up the Sergeant, will get assault, disrespect to an NCO, drunk and disorderly, underage drinking. There also might be some base orders in effect (not allowed out after 10 pm, not allowed to a certain club, etc.), so they can throw in 10 violations of a base order, which is chargable in the military. Now, when the investigators do their thing, while talking to people might uncover that the Private had sex with some other guys wife a year ago (adultery), and when talking to her might found out he got a blowjob (sodomy). Next they find out he bounced a check at the local PX (chargable) and so on and so on.
I have seen cover ups and I have seen cases and sentences decided prior to a military member even touching foot and saying his side of the story.
I love the military and have spoken highly of it in previous threads, so do not think I am ranting and going all crazy because of my dislike for the military or whatever. These are my views that I can back with 100% true stories.
The point I was trying to make is that if you’ve got really top notch investigators who arrest the actual guilty person 90% of the time, then there’s nothing wrong with a court system that’s convicting 90% of the defendants before it (assuming obviously that it’s the same 90%). A high conviction rate is only a problem when innocent people are being accused and tried.
Now if XaMcQ or somebody else can present credible cites that a significant percentage of people convicted by military courts were actually innocent then I’ll concede that a problem exists. And if it can be shown that the percentage of false convictions if significantly higher than the percentage of false acquitals, I’ll concede there’s a bias towards the prosecution.
That is incorrect. The US Constitution still applies to members of the Armed Services.
On what do you base that opinion? There is a presumption of innocence for the accused. It’s the government’s (the prosecutor) job to prove to the jury (or the judge in a judge only court-martial) the charges.
Except, of course, for the whole matter of it being his duty and that he bound by federal law, by Service regulations, and by his Code of Ethics to represent the accused zealously and competently.
They or you?
It 's an offense to make false charges against someone. And your comment about Article 134 demonstrates your ignorance of the military legal system.
And none of those charges is bogus except for the underage drinking. That would be charges as disobeying a lawful order or regulation.
First rule of holes is good advice for you.
Fact or opinion?
Or they’re just your opinions based on your mistaken views of the military justice system.
I neglected to mention that the UCMJ requires what’s called an Article 32 Investigation prior to a court-martial. That investigation examines the charges and the evidence presented to determine if the case should be adjudicated at a court-martial, disposed of at an Article 15 hearing, or dismissed. A more accurate portrayal of the conviction percentage in the military would include all such cases and not just those taken to trial.
You are definitely senior to me on this board, no doubt, and I do not want to get into an argument with anyone in GQ. Perhaps I should start a thread in IMHO, or someone else can.
We could go back and forth all day about the way it is supposed to be, and the way it is. Perhaps I am a little biased on this from personal experience, and GQ is not the place for anything biased. But I 100% stand by everything I said, as I am sure you do, also.
And we could both, instead of me, be supplying actual facts. This is, after all, General Questions. IMHO is quite possibly the forum you’re looking for. Of course I’m standing 100% behind my postings. I posted facts.
So you say you’ve seen coverups. Did you report them? Do you have evidence? Or maybe the other forum you’re looking for is IMHO.
Drat! Here’s the corrected posting:
And of the two of us, we could both, instead of just me, be posting facts. This is, after all, GQ. As you say, IMHO is quite possibly the forum you’re looking for. Of course I’m standing 100% behind my postings. I posted facts.
So you say you’ve seen ocver-ups. Did you report them? Do you have evbidence? Or maybe the other forum you’re looking for is The BBQ Pit.