# "Defending Their Country" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 14, 2011, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-their-country/574626 "2011-03-14T05:22:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-their-country/574626/41 "2011-03-15T16:26:53Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > It’s pretty clear to me that the US military creates a deterrent to those who would otherwise feel free to invade our shores or interfere with our national interests. So the US being proactive in removing potential threats to our way of life from abroad is “defending,” IMHO. Indeed and by invading, sorry, proactively forward projecting their interest sphere, Poland was prevented from eventually becoming more than a potential threat to Schleswig-Holstein. What on earth got into people declaring war on Germany? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-their-country/574626/42 "2011-03-15T16:37:44Z")
> [@AWB](#): > > But what I _hate_ is people saying that US soldiers in Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Balkans, etc. are “defending their country”. Since when are these these places part of the US? We should immediately close down any and all memorials to those who served in WWI and WWII in Germany, France, Japan etc. WWII is probably eligible only on the basis of Pearl Harbor, since those who were under attack there were “defending their country”. All the rest of you vets and their relatives, tough shit. :rolleyes: > [@AWB](#): > > Firstly, I respect anyone that has joined up, either pre- or post- 9/11, to serve in the US Armed Forces. No you don’t, but that’s your privilege. What is it with this board meme? Don’t the people who spout it realize how stupid and damaging it sounds? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-their-country/574626/43 "2011-03-15T17:57:28Z")
I think you can make an argument that all of this is an extension of our culture of warrior worship. You might think we overdo it, others think we don’t do enough [http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-11-07-homeless-veterans\_N.htm](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-11-07-homeless-veterans_N.htm) For good or ill, we honor those who are willing to fight and die to advance the interests of the United States because so much depends on their strength of arms. Are you objecting to the rhetoric "defending their country’ because it makes it seem like the invasion of Iraq was the only thing standing between our way of life and whatever society Saddam hussein would have imposed on us if we didn’t invade? That’s fine but we have been using that sort of rhetoric since as long ago as I can rememebr. it wasn’t some neocon rhetorical device that was created to help sell the invasion of Iraq (or our military intervention in the Balkans and Somalia). ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-their-country/574626/44 "2011-03-15T18:28:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think you can make an argument that all of this is an extension of our culture of warrior worship. > > You might think we overdo it, others think we don’t do enough [http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-11-07-homeless-veterans\_N.htm](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-11-07-homeless-veterans_N.htm) > > For good or ill, we honor those who are willing to fight and die to advance the interests of the United States because so much depends on their strength of arms. > > Are you objecting to the rhetoric "defending their country’ because it makes it seem like the invasion of Iraq was the only thing standing between our way of life and whatever society Saddam hussein would have imposed on us if we didn’t invade? That’s fine but we have been using that sort of rhetoric since as long ago as I can rememebr. it wasn’t some neocon rhetorical device that was created to help sell the invasion of Iraq (or our military intervention in the Balkans and Somalia). But it remains just that; rhetoric.. Before WWI + WWII everyone did it. Venerating their military, their flag _Dulce et decorum est_ and all that. After these horrible slaughters it was just you and the Soviets that kept that up. And now it’s just you… Over here we have learned that dying for your Country, the Queen, the Party, whatever.. it’s a load of crock. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-their-country/574626/45 "2011-03-15T20:14:45Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > But it remains just that; rhetoric.. > Before WWI + WWII everyone did it. Venerating their military, their flag _Dulce et decorum est_ and all that. > After these horrible slaughters it was just you and the Soviets that kept that up. > And now it’s just you… > Over here we have learned that dying for your Country, the Queen, the Party, whatever.. it’s a load of crock. You’ve learned that, eh? All of you? News to me. When I was stationed in Sicily I worked with P3C crews from the Netherlands all of the time. Not to mention a number of Dutch warships enforcing sanctions in the Adriatic Sea. I wasn’t around for this, but 25 of your soldiers have died in Afghanistan. Do you not venerate the sacrifices of your fellow citizens? I respected these professionals very much, when I had the pleasure of working with them. And I mourn the deaths of Dutch soldiers as much as I do American ones. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-their-country/574626/46 "2011-03-15T22:26:01Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > You’ve learned that, eh? All of you? > > News to me. When I was stationed in Sicily I worked with P3C crews from the Netherlands all of the time. Not to mention a number of Dutch warships enforcing sanctions in the Adriatic Sea. > > I wasn’t around for this, but 25 of your soldiers have died in Afghanistan. > > Do you not venerate the sacrifices of your fellow citizens? I respected these professionals very much, when I had the pleasure of working with them. And I mourn the deaths of Dutch soldiers as much as I do American ones. We have a remembrance day for those killed in war, yes. Wouldn’t call it veneration though. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-their-country/574626/47 "2011-03-15T23:18:46Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > It’s pretty clear to me that the US military creates a deterrent to those who would otherwise feel free to invade our shores or interfere with our national interests. So the US being proactive in removing potential threats to our way of life from abroad is “defending,” IMHO. You could argue that the US military creates an environment where terrorism is thriving. ---
**Author:** ![Ograbme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Ograbme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ograbme)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-their-country/574626/48 "2011-03-15T23:39:07Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > It’s pretty clear to me that the US military creates a deterrent to those who would otherwise feel free to invade our shores or interfere with our national interests. So the US being proactive in removing potential threats to our way of life from abroad is “defending,” IMHO. It’s pretty clear to me that military ventures create an _encouragement_ to those who would otherwise feel indifferent towards acting against us. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-their-country/574626/49 "2011-03-16T00:55:32Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Indeed and by invading, sorry, proactively forward projecting their interest sphere, Poland was prevented from eventually becoming more than a potential threat to Schleswig-Holstein. > > What on earth got into people declaring war on Germany? I certainly must have misread the OP, as I thought it referenced US troops. I wasn’t aware that the US was in Poland defending Schleswig-Holstein as you appear to claim. Could you perhaps provide a cite on that? ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-their-country/574626/50 "2011-03-16T01:35:37Z")
Maybe I’m not fit to shine their shoes, either (lucky thing they’re all in desert boots till the war ends) - but my personal take on the issue is that the people who attach the most patriotic value to serving in the military today do so _more or less simply because_ it is a hard, strict, physical life that not many citizens choose anymore. Our servicepeople come disproportionately from the ranks of people who work with their bodies and hands, and whose world view has more to do with received tradition than with questioning and learning. I suspect they don’t see those values given the respect outside the military that they do inside it, and for that reason, they feel they are doing us _all_ a service in upholding them. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-their-country/574626/51 "2011-03-16T01:40:11Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > But it remains just that; rhetoric.. > Before WWI + WWII everyone did it. Venerating their military, their flag _Dulce et decorum est_ and all that. > After these horrible slaughters it was just you and the Soviets that kept that up. > And now it’s just you… > Over here we have learned that dying for your Country, the Queen, the Party, whatever.. it’s a load of crock. Perfect sum up. It’s time to go past puberty, America. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-their-country/574626/52 "2011-03-16T01:56:02Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > It’s time to go past puberty, America. You feel Europe are the grownups of civilization. Yet many Americans see Europe as civilization’s dissipated aristocrats, and themselves as its virile pioneers - and indeed, cherish that metaphor to the point of believing America _should_ repeat the mistakes of history. For one thing, America is exceptional, because she has God on her side. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-their-country/574626/53 "2011-03-19T22:03:09Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Perfect sum up. It’s time to go past puberty, America. I don’t typically call Europeans out on the whole Communism and Fascism and Nazism thing, since they were the proximate victims as well as the perpetrators. I will do so, though, when they claim to have a more evolved body politic. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-their-country/574626/54 "2011-03-19T23:19:23Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > I don’t typically call Europeans out on the whole Communism and Fascism and Nazism thing, since they were the proximate victims as well as the perpetrators. I will do so, though, when they claim to have a more evolved body politic. Why do you think bringing up political regimes of 70 years ago would be any kind of rebuttal to what Europe is now? ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-their-country/574626/55 "2011-03-20T01:02:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why do you think bringing up political regimes of 70 years ago would be any kind of rebuttal to what Europe is now? It’s probably the meme going around the conservative fan base. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-their-country/574626/56 "2011-03-20T11:53:44Z")
The claim was that America has to get past puberty. That implies an immaturity to our political system. To make that claim comparisons ought to be made. European political systems vary widely, of course. Many Eastern European countries were recently Communist. A softened fascism didn’t die out in Spain until Franco himself died. I was in the Navy over there when the Yugoslavs were doing their level best to commit genocide on the European continent again. Not to mention that much of the militarism in America was imposed on it by the requirement for a couple of generations to assume much of the responsibility and cost of Europe’s defense. It isn’t seventy years. Even if it was that wouldn’t be that long a time. And I certainly accept criticism but not from people snickering at my backwardness while there is an Anne Frank memorial in their country. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-their-country/574626/57 "2011-03-20T15:41:55Z")
The Netherlands were on the allied side during WWII, so why shouldn’t they snicker? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-their-country/574626.md?page=2)