# Defending western values against the attack of Islam
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [March 28, 2007, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877 "2007-03-28T18:48:29Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2007, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/1 "2007-03-28T18:48:29Z")
**]". . . in our opposition to the worldview of Islam, we confront a civilzation with an arrested history. It is as though a portal in time has opened, and fourteenth-century hordes are pouring into our world**." (Sam Harris, _The End of Faith_).
For anyone out there naive enough to still think that Islam is just a religion like the others and that our western values are not under attack, consider some of the latest developments.
France and Canada are two of the western democracies with rapidly-growing immigrant populations of Muslims.
Regarding France, in a recent article entitled “_Laïcité: un héritage en péril_” (Secularism: an endangered heritage) (all translations mine) in the Jan-February 2007 issue of _Historia Thématique_ Daniel Lefeuvre, a professor of Economic and Social History at the University of Paris and Michel Renard, co-author of “L’Histoire de l’islam et des musulmans en France” 2006, clearly set out the growing danger of Islam and Muslim hostility to the fundamental values of the western democracies that have received them. And the first value they attack is secularism and the separation of Church and State.
One incident after another is recorded. Gangs of young muslim thugs circulate in French schools “enforcing” Islamic dress codes on young women of Muslim background. This, incidentally was one of the principal reasons France passed a law banning the wearing of ALL religious symbols, (not just the Muslim head-scarf). The law, as draconian as it may seem, is actually a way of protecting female Muslims in France from this kind of bullying.
Or what about cases of Muslim students physically attacked for the “crime” of eating a sandwich during Ramadan?
Or what about French high schools where the cafeteria sells only “halal;” meat? And where any non-Muslim French student who dares to bring in something like a pork sandwich risks physical attack?
Or what about the demands that the circumcised Muslim students cannot change in the same locker room as the “impure” French students?
In the emergency wards and obstetrics wards of French hospitals, male doctors have been assaulted by Muslim husbands for coming to the aid of women, some of whom were in serious need of immediate attention. In one case, the doctor was physically thrown down and told “You are in Muslim territory here!” (The hospital is in France!)
In Canada, we have as many examples. A Muslim trying for his driver’s licence refuses to accept a female employee administering the test because he will not accept a woman in the front seat with him. Can you imagine if someone said they refused to have a black or a Jew or a Catholic in the front seat?
In Toronto, a Mulsim woman art student refuses to draw or paint nudes, although this is a required part of the course. The painting of nudes is an integral part of western art. Do the values and traditions of the culture this woman has voluntarily moved to mean nothing to her?
In History classes, Muslim students refuse to learn about the Holocaust, alleging that it is nothing but an inventiion of the “Zionist lobby”.
In France, Muslim female teachers are regularly told by male students that they should be in the home, and that they have no business talking to males.
In cities like Amsterdam, where gays and lesbians have been generally safe and accepted, there is a growing crescendo of violence and attacks against them by gangs of Muslim immigrant thugs.
As Lefeuvre and Renard conclude in their article, France fought a “thirty years’ war” ending in 1905 to get the Catholic Church to accept separation of Church and State. Modern France (and I would say western democracies in general) now face the choice of defeding this value or abandoning it.
As Elie Barnavi says in “_Religions meurtrières_” (Murderous Religions, 2006)“We must stand and hold the line at certain basic principles that we will neither debate nor compromise on, and from which we will allow no exceptions: Here, freedom of belief is an individual right, and religion is a matter for the free choice of the individual. . . . . The Republic has been a good girl, but she must now learn to expose her claws. She must not only forbid that her laws be broken, but also that her ethic be embraced.”
IT IS TIME FOR NOT ONLY FRANCE BUT WESTERN DEMOCRACIES TO WAKE UP!
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### Author:  [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2007, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/2 "2007-03-28T19:02:22Z")
You will not get much of a rise from people here. For reasons that still elude me, Islam is given much more latitude here (in the name of cultural relativism) than fundamentalist christianity. Considering that Islam is so much more restrictive, it’s really mind-boggling for me.
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### Author:  [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2007, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/3 "2007-03-28T19:26:05Z")
[QUOTE=Anduril]
You will not get much of a rise from people here. For reasons that still elude me, Islam is given much more latitude here (in the name of cultural relativism) than fundamentalist christianity. Considering that Islam is so much more restrictive, it’s really mind-boggling for me.
[/QUOTE]
I know what you mean, Anduri. There seems to be a feeling that since Muslims are a small immigrant minority, that Islam istelf should be above and beyond reproach and criticism, no matter how much Muslims attack the values of the very western democracies that have accepted them.
I expect that 90% of replies will be in defenmse of Islam and the “rights” of Muslims to attack or reject our fundamental values.
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### Author:  [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2007, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/4 "2007-03-28T19:30:20Z")
I’m sorry, I just can’t get too worked up over people who use religion as an excuse to attack and intimidate other people. They’d most likely use another excuse if it weren’t for Islam.
I am worried about potential future developments such as this, though, because people seem to need some sort of classification upon which to discriminate, and I do fear being caught on the wrong end of it.
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### Author:  [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2007, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/5 "2007-03-28T19:33:20Z")
Fact: the Christian fundies have screwed things up for me, personally, far more than the Muslim fundies have screwed things up for me, personally.
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2007, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/6 "2007-03-28T19:58:46Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron]
In Toronto, a Mulsim woman art student refuses to draw or paint nudes, although this is a required part of the course. The painting of nudes is an integral part of western art. Do the values and traditions of the culture this woman has voluntarily moved to mean nothing to her?
[/QUOTE]
Fundamentalist and conservative Christians have done precisely the same thing, though.
> [@](#):
>
> In History classes, Muslim students refuse to learn about the Holocaust, alleging that it is nothing but an inventiion of the “Zionist lobby”.
In Canada, Holocaust denial is largely the province of white, nominally Christian neo-Nazi and fascist types.
Why are these isolated examples such a major concern when Muslims do it, but not when white folks and Christians do it? Please explain.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2007, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/7 "2007-03-28T20:14:56Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron]
IT IS TIME FOR NOT ONLY FRANCE BUT WESTERN DEMOCRACIES TO WAKE UP!
[/QUOTE]
And do what?
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### Author:  [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2007, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/8 "2007-03-28T20:18:42Z")
[QUOTE=Anduril]
You will not get much of a rise from people here. For reasons that still elude me, Islam is given much more latitude here (in the name of cultural relativism) than fundamentalist christianity. Considering that Islam is so much more restrictive, it’s really mind-boggling for me.
[/QUOTE]
Not, it’s that we’re aware that cherry-picked examples of Muslims behaving badly are completely unrepresentative of what Muslims as a whole do or think.
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### Author:  [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2007, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/9 "2007-03-28T20:20:14Z")
[QUOTE=Miller]
And do what?
[/QUOTE]
THE YOUNG MEN SHALL TAKE TO THE STREETS TO FIGHT IN THE NAME OF NONVIOLENCE.
THE CHILDREN SHALL TEAR THE GREEN FLAGS OF THE INFIDELS INTO SHREDS TO SPREAD THE CAUSE OF TOLERANCE.
AND THE OLD MEN SHALL TAKE TO THE TOWN CORNERS TO PREACH THE CRUSADE AGAINST THE HATRED OF OTHERS, AND TO URGE THE YOUNG INTOLERANT TO GET OFF THEIR LAWNS.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2007, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/10 "2007-03-28T20:23:45Z")
[QUOTE=Miller]
And do what?
[/QUOTE]
Dance?
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### Author:  [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2007, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/11 "2007-03-28T20:30:03Z")
Yeah. And the sky is falling. Yawn.
Here’s a fact of life for ya: there are nutjob/fundie/extremists in EVERY religion. Every single one. Your tiny and ridiculous set of examples that you think support your cause is both tiny and ridiculous, not in the least because it cites examples of behaviours of the fringe of Islam.
I wish some folks would learn how to reach conclusions based on valid evidence. Here’s a clue: a handful of isolated incidents do not a crisis make.
I will repeat for the zillionth time (almost): there are ONE BILLION MUSLIMS. The number of them who are not extremist/nutjob, etc. is vastly greater than the number of them who are. Vastly. And will always be.
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### Author:  [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2007, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/12 "2007-03-28T20:30:05Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay]
Fundamentalist and conservative Christians have done precisely the same thing, though.
In Canada, Holocaust denial is largely the province of white, nominally Christian neo-Nazi and fascist types.
Why are these isolated examples such a major concern when Muslims do it, but not when white folks and Christians do it? Please explain.
[/QUOTE]
Neo-nazis and fascist types are a small, unimportant minority of lunatics. Do you honestly believe these nazis are growing, or that they are going to win elections?
Islam is a world-wide movement that believes that it has a duty to conquer the entire world for Allah, and to impose Islam. If by conversion, fine. If by conquest or infiltration, fine. I will not bore you with the tedious and numerous litany of verses from the Koran that command Muslims to fight for the universal victory of their religiion, but I can refer you to this website: [Skeptic's Annotated Bible / Quran / Mormon Scriptures](http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html)
In countries like France and Canada and others that have growing Muslim populations, there is phenominal growth due to immigration and to the fact that Muslim women are often virtual baby machines. You see them in the streets of European and North American cities with one in the stroller, one walking beside them, and a bun in the oven.
In France, where Muslims are now 10% of the population, there are entire Muslim suburbs in which anyone found eating during daylight hours during Ramadan or anyone who does not pray when required or any woman who does not wear the head scarf is “taken care of” by local Muslim groups.
Are you honestly going to tell me that this compares to fundies and a few Nazi kooks?
The clash of civilizations is upon us. If you want to ignore the peril and bury your head in the sand, go ahead.
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### Author:  [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2007, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/13 "2007-03-28T20:31:17Z")
Well in the U.S. Muslims are a lot more assimilated into the culture, there is virtually no problem with Muslim radicalism domestically, and the U.S. has a tradition of aggressively defending minority religions. So that’s why you’ll see people here will tend to defend Muslims against Christians – Muslims if anything are going to be the persecuted and not the persecutors here.
I get that the situation in Europe is a lot more complex however.
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### Author:  [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2007, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/14 "2007-03-28T20:32:13Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron]
Islam is a world-wide movement that believes that it has a duty to conquer the entire world for Allah, and to impose Islam.
[/QUOTE]
There’s already been a couple dozen threads on this. Point is that you’re wrong about that. Dead wrong. Totally, completely wrong. But I’m not rewriting all the reasons why. You go read up.
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### Author:  [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2007, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/15 "2007-03-28T20:33:07Z")
[QUOTE=Miller]
And do what?
[/QUOTE]
The first step is to stop denying that Islam and Muslims in the west are a danger to our core western values.
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### Author:  [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2007, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/16 "2007-03-28T20:33:27Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron]
In Toronto, a Mulsim woman art student refuses to draw or paint nudes, although this is a required part of the course. The painting of nudes is an integral part of western art. Do the values and traditions of the culture this woman has voluntarily moved to mean nothing to her?
[/QUOTE]
I guess I can either get outraged about some Muslim women in Toronto opposing nude art, or I can get outraged about the freaking Attorney General of the United Sates covering up a nude statues breast. Guess which one I chose?
Your OP is nothing more than a bunch of uncited alarmist statements. I mean come on. You expect me to believe that there is a high school in France where you will get beat up for eating a pork sandwich? Besides, there are tons of coo coo bananas type people from all backgrounds in the U.S. Why should I suddenly take up arms because they are Muslim?
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### Author:  [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2007, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/17 "2007-03-28T20:35:39Z")
Why don’t you list some of those “Western” values?
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### Author:  [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2007, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/18 "2007-03-28T20:36:32Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron]
The first step is to stop denying that Islam and Muslims in the west are a danger to our core western values.
[/QUOTE]
What is the next step?
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### Author:  [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2007, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/19 "2007-03-28T20:38:41Z")
[QUOTE=Bridget Burke]
Why don’t you list some of those “Western” values?
[/QUOTE]
Apparently, they don’t include ‘tolerance’ and ‘common sense’. :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)
#### Post date: [March 28, 2007, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/20 "2007-03-28T20:40:47Z")
I would love to see secularism strongly defended in my country (America) and all over the world. That isn’t really happening though, and, at least where I live, the biggest threat isn’t coming from Muslims. But, when they do it, I have a problem with it.
I don’t think Islam is any worse than Christianity, and I don’t think it is any better. I do have big problems with racists, though, and a lot of times people who are anti- Muslim are actually anti- brown people. That really bothers me, and is why I don’t normally get behind these types of rants.
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