# Defending western values against the attack of Islam **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 28, 2007, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877 "2007-03-28T18:48:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/21 "2007-03-28T20:44:07Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron] Muslim women are often virtual baby machines… [/QUOTE] So let’s look at a few of those fertility rates: Albania: 2.03 Turkey: 1.92 Lebanon: 1.90 Algeria: 1.89 Kazakhstan: 1.89 Iran: 1.80 Tunisia: 1.74 Bosnia: 1.22 All less than the U.S., and all less than replacement value. Oh, my God, it’s a crisis! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/22 "2007-03-28T20:46:04Z")
I personally prefer to be vigilant rather than outraged. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/23 "2007-03-28T20:46:24Z")
[QUOTE=miss elizabeth] I would love to see secularism strongly defended in my country (America) and all over the world. That isn’t really happening though, and, at least where I live, the biggest threat isn’t coming from Muslims. But, when they do it, I have a problem with it. I don’t think Islam is any worse than Christianity, and I don’t think it is any better. I do have big problems with racists, though, and a lot of times people who are anti- Muslim are actually anti- brown people. That really bothers me, and is why I don’t normally get behind these types of rants. [/QUOTE] As a matter of fact, I happen to be about as brown as many Muslims. I am regularly asked by Arabs if I am one of them. So much for your theory that my “rant” is racism. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/24 "2007-03-28T20:55:31Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron] The first step is to stop denying that Islam and Muslims in the west are a danger to our core western values. [/QUOTE] Okay. Then what? What do you think we should do about all these Muslims threatening our core Western values? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/25 "2007-03-28T20:58:43Z")
[QUOTE=Bridget Burke] Why don’t you list some of those “Western” values? [/QUOTE] Where do you want me to start? Take just one thing that Muslims in the west have trouble with: Male-female equality: In the west, a woman can speak to a man who is not her husband on the street. She can shake hands with men. She can be a judge over men. She can sit in the front seat of a car with a man if she is a driving inspector and he is trying to get a licence. Beating your wife is considered a crime of assault in most western countries. In the Koran, on the contrary, it says in Surah 34, verse 4, Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. (note that it is enough to FEAR rebellion. His problem becomes her black eye. Or take Surah 5, verse 6: When it’s time to pray and you have just used the toilet or touched a woman, be sure to wash up. If you can’t find any water, just rub some dirt on yourself. How do you suppose that affects the thinking of young Muslim men who are taught that? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/26 "2007-03-28T21:01:21Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron] Where do you want me to start? Take just one thing that Muslims in the west have trouble with: Male-female equality: In the west, a woman can speak to a man who is not her husband on the street. She can shake hands with men. She can be a judge over men. She can sit in the front seat of a car with a man if she is a driving inspector and he is trying to get a licence. Beating your wife is considered a crime of assault in most western countries. In the Koran, on the contrary, it says in Surah 34, verse 4, Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. (note that it is enough to FEAR rebellion. His problem becomes her black eye. Or take Surah 5, verse 6: When it’s time to pray and you have just used the toilet or touched a woman, be sure to wash up. If you can’t find any water, just rub some dirt on yourself. How do you suppose that affects the thinking of young Muslim men who are taught that? [/QUOTE] Careful reading of the Old Testament will reveal just as many wrong-headed ideas. (Is it true your membership expires this Saturday?) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/27 "2007-03-28T21:01:41Z")
The last time we had one of these alarmist [oh-my-god-them-nasty-musselmens-are-coming-to-take-our-land-burn-our-civilization-and-steal-our-women](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=391021) threads, **clairobscur** (a real live French person living on the invasion front) had a number of comments about the “violence” in Europe [in this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7849214#post7849214). Actually, it would not be a bad idea for those who have not already gone through this exercise to go read the earlier thread in its two-and-a-bit page entirety, paying special attention to all of **clairobscur** ’s comments. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/28 "2007-03-28T21:02:43Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron] As a matter of fact, I happen to be about as brown as many Muslims. I am regularly asked by Arabs if I am one of them. So much for your theory that my “rant” is racism. [/QUOTE] Substitute “xenophobia” for racism. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/29 "2007-03-28T21:05:44Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Okay. Then what? What do you think we should do about all these Muslims threatening our core Western values? [/QUOTE] That is what I would like to see debated here. In point of fact, the following measures are already being enacted or considered in parts of the western world. The Dutch and other highly tolerant European nations are looking at the possibility of better screening of immigrants, restrictions on immigration from Mulim countries, asking Muslim immigrants to study and sign that they at least accept the core values of the west. For example, telling them clearly that they will have to accept that when it comes to the beating of women, our criminal codes over-rule the Koran. Active prosecution of Muslim gangs who try to impose Islam on the unwilling and the lukewarm in the Muslim communities in the west. Active education of westerners concerning the defense of our values. Any other suggestions? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/30 "2007-03-28T21:10:34Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron] That is what I would like to see debated here. In point of fact, the following measures are already being enacted or considered in parts of the western world. The Dutch and other highly tolerant European nations are looking at the possibility of better screening of immigrants, restrictions on immigration from Mulim countries, asking Muslim immigrants to study and sign that they at least accept the core values of the west. For example, telling them clearly that they will have to accept that when it comes to the beating of women, our criminal codes over-rule the Koran. Active prosecution of Muslim gangs who try to impose Islam on the unwilling and the lukewarm in the Muslim communities in the west. Active education of westerners concerning the defense of our values. Any other suggestions? [/QUOTE] What universal western values are you referring to? ---
**Author:** ![guppy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7feea3/32.png) [@guppy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guppy)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/31 "2007-03-28T21:15:13Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron] In countries like France and Canada and others that have growing Muslim populations, there is phenominal growth due to immigration and to the fact that Muslim women are often virtual baby machines. [/QUOTE] That’s ok though because I hear they eat their babies. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Elsie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b2d939/32.png) [@Elsie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elsie)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/32 "2007-03-28T21:17:55Z")
‘Western values’ . . . mmmmm. I found it difficult to focus on those after the USA, the UK and Australia all re-elected leaders who had lied to them in order to invade Iraq in pursuit of oil. I’m sure there are some left, but after 50-60 hours working, responding to the call to achieve and consume, all I’ve got the strength for is a double burger with double fries and double milkshake. But at least when I go to bed I can start to count that day’s dead Iraq’s to help me sleep, that and what car I’m going to get when I’ve finished paying for this beauty. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/33 "2007-03-28T21:23:26Z")
[QUOTE=Elsie] ‘Western values’ . . . mmmmm. I found it difficult to focus on those after the USA, the UK and Australia all re-elected leaders who had lied to them in order to invade Iraq in pursuit of oil. I’m sure there are some left, but after 50-60 hours working, responding to the call to achieve and consume, all I’ve got the strength for is a double burger with double fries and double milkshake. But at least when I go to bed I can start to count that day’s dead Iraq’s to help me sleep, that and what car I’m going to get when I’ve finished paying for this beauty. [/QUOTE] Elsie, while you wallow in western guilt and laugh at our values, you can be sure that throughout the Muslim world, they are telling the faithful that it is their duty to impose Islam on the corrupt west. Nobody is criticizing Islam in Muslim countries. Least ways, nobody living. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/34 "2007-03-28T21:25:59Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] What universal western values are you referring to? [/QUOTE] Hate, apparently. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/35 "2007-03-28T21:27:09Z")
**Valteron** , your basic problem seems to be that you’re conflating “Islam” in general with “extremist theocratic Islam”. I don’t think anybody would deny that extremist theocratic versions of Islam **are** in conflict with “Western” (that is, secular rationalist humanist) values and in many cases are deliberately attacking those values. What we’re objecting to is your attempting to assign that viewpoint to Islam as a whole, based on naive literalist readings of the Qur’an. If you could distinguish between Islam as a whole and the specific subset of it that promotes anti-Western theocratic extremism, some of your ideas would actually be perfectly reasonable. For instance: > [@Valteron](#): > > The Dutch and other highly tolerant European nations are looking at the possibility of better screening of immigrants, restrictions on immigration from Mulim countries, asking Muslim immigrants to study and sign that they at least accept the core values of the west. For example, telling them clearly that they will have to accept that when it comes to the beating of women, our criminal codes over-rule the Koran. I don’t see any problem with such policies, and of course they should be applied to immigrants of all religions, not just Muslim ones. The principles of religious pluralism and secular law are important in modern Western societies, and I don’t have a problem with explicitly telling all immigrants that they’re expected to abide by those principles. (Once immigrants become citizens, of course, they have as much right as any other citizens to dissent from these principles and to advocate a different form of government if they want to. But ISTM that we’re within our rights to screen out the declared anti-secularists as much as possible at the entry stage.) > [@Valteron](#): > > Active prosecution of Muslim gangs who try to impose Islam on the unwilling and the lukewarm in the Muslim communities in the west. This makes no sense as currently phrased: it’s impossible to “impose Islam” on anybody within “Muslim communities”, because members of Muslim communities, by definition, **already** adhere to Islam. What you mean is that Muslim-extremist gangs should not be allowed to impose the dictates of extremist theocratic Islamism on their more moderate fellow Muslims. I completely agree with that suggestion, and in fact I’m opposed to gangs of any kind in a modern secular society being allowed to impose extra-legal religious mandates on anybody by force or threats of force. Prosecute 'em all. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/36 "2007-03-28T21:30:40Z")
[QUOTE=lowbrass] [Quote=Kalhoun] What universal western values are you referring to? [/quote] Hate, apparently. ☹ [/QUOTE] Actually, I do not believe that one can number “hate” among “Western” values, at least in that it seems to be highly regarded among a number of other cultures as well. If you wish to seek out Westen Values, I would suggest starting with colonialism (a strong case made be made for that), considering genocide (we at least have a lot of practice), mass consumerism (a value we have exported to other societies but which we appear to have created and certainly fostered and nurtured until we could set it free in the world). ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/37 "2007-03-28T21:32:21Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] What universal western values are you referring to? [/QUOTE] Just as one example, ask Salman Rushdie or the Danish cartoonist(s) who did the Mohammed cartoons about the precious right of freedom of the press, a right that Muslims countries neither have nor could even comprehend, let alone respect and cherish. Muslims have no trouble identifying THEIR values, you can be sure. They are right in the Koran. And they have decided the whole world is meant to accept those values. If we in the west cannot identify our values or respect them, then maybe we DESERVE to lose in the clash of civilizations! ---
**Author:** ![Elsie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b2d939/32.png) [@Elsie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elsie)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/38 "2007-03-28T21:38:37Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron] Elsie, while you wallow in western guilt and laugh at our values, you can be sure that throughout the Muslim world, they are telling the faithful that it is their duty to impose Islam on the corrupt west. Nobody is criticizing Islam in Muslim countries. Least ways, nobody living. 😃 [/QUOTE] I’ve spent quite a lot of time in Islamic countries and with Muslims, and I know which value set makes for a happier, more contented person who doesn’t have to contend with the range of absurdities and contradictions flung iny face every day. Really pal, you need to get out more. Go crazy, get a passport maybe. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/39 "2007-03-28T21:40:32Z")
[QUOTE=Valteron] Where do you want me to start? Take just one thing that Muslims in the west have trouble with: Male-female equality: In the west, a woman can speak to a man who is not her husband on the street. She can shake hands with men. She can be a judge over men. She can sit in the front seat of a car with a man if she is a driving inspector and he is trying to get a licence. Beating your wife is considered a crime of assault in most western countries. In the Koran, on the contrary, it says in Surah 34, verse 4, Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. (note that it is enough to FEAR rebellion. His problem becomes her black eye. Or take Surah 5, verse 6: When it’s time to pray and you have just used the toilet or touched a woman, be sure to wash up. If you can’t find any water, just rub some dirt on yourself. How do you suppose that affects the thinking of young Muslim men who are taught that? [/QUOTE] As noted in a current **Pit** thread, a (woman) German judge appears to have bought into **Valteron** ’s odd view of Muslim support for wife-beating. In response to [her ruling claiming that exact thing](http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070322/wl_afp/germanyjusticeislam_070322132641), > [@](#): > > The Central Council of Muslims in Germany also condemned the decision. > > “The judge should have made a decision based on the German constitution instead of the Koran,” said spokeswoman Nurhan Soykan, who said that violence and mistreatment, regardless of the gender of the victim, were also grounds for divorce in the Islamic world. So while we have some posters on message boards and an ignorant German judge claiming that Islam supports wife abuse, we have an actual council of Muslims condemning such actions. Whom to believe? ---
**Author:** ![Elsie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b2d939/32.png) [@Elsie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elsie)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877/40 "2007-03-28T21:41:27Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] **Valteron** , your basic problem seems to be that you’re conflating “Islam” in general with “extremist theocratic Islam”. [/QUOTE] Indeed, it’s disingenuous but serves the purpose. Good old western values in action. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defending-western-values-against-the-attack-of-islam/397877.md?page=3)