# Defense Department still using 8-inch floppy disks. Really? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 26, 2016, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727 "2016-05-26T06:48:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tonyfop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@tonyfop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tonyfop)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/41 "2016-05-27T00:56:36Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > IIRC floppy and reliability weren’t words used in the same sentence too often. I would also wonder if old unused ones stored for decades in a warehouse would still be in good condition. I suspect they are still made fresh. I still have a working Commodore 128 and a working 5 1/4 floppy drive. Most of my old games still work, the oldest being over 30 years (bought for a C64 in 1985) ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/42 "2016-05-27T01:15:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And that’s exactly why they absolutely need to upgrade them. The cost is only that high because they’ve been refusing to upgrade them for generations, and it’s only going to get higher. The first rule of holes is to stop digging. You’re thinking too long term. The first rule is keep digging because as long as you keep doing so there is nothing to provoke a review of the situation, and as long as you are out of the job before it’s realised the enterprise is in a hole, it’s not your problem. But if you stop digging, then someone is going to put some thought into the situation and determine there is a problem, for which you will be blamed. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/43 "2016-05-27T01:22:47Z")
I still have 8" floppy disks, but I got rid of the drives ages ago. There’s nothing new about the government using really old computers. \*\*Crafter\_Man \*\*understands what’s going on here. We’re better off not wasting money on an upgrade. > [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > It is very very very very expensive, and very very very very time consuming, to upgrade a DoD system. To upgrade this old floppy system, we’re not talking $100K. We’re not talking $1M. We’re talking well over $50M, and that could be low _by an order of magnitude_. Heck, just writing the new TOs would probably cost over $10M. And then there’s new TPS that need to be written, new depot maintenance equipment, training, calibration equipment, spare parts, software security analysis, etc. etc. etc. > > If repair parts are readily available for the existing system, and the system is reliable, then there’s no reason for the DoD program office to spend money on it. They have more pressing issues to spend money on. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/44 "2016-05-27T01:26:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And that’s exactly why they absolutely need to upgrade them. The cost is only that high because they’ve been refusing to upgrade them for generations, and it’s only going to get higher. The first rule of holes is to stop digging. _ **Lots** _ of things need to be upgraded. Hypothetical examples: a circuit board in the missile is suffering from dendrite growth, a wiring harness with silver-plated conductors is suffering from red plague, an amplifier module in the silo is suffering from premature failure due to corrosion. (Again, all made-up examples.) You work at the program office, and you have a _limited_ budget. Two-star generals are up your ass at every monthly meeting. Where are _you_ going to put your limited resources? It is easy to sit back and say, “The DoD should do this and that.” Those that say this do not understand what really goes on… ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/45 "2016-05-27T01:32:57Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > \*\*Crafter\_Man \*\*understands what’s going on here. We’re better off not wasting money on an upgrade. …and I am being purposefully vague due to potential RL ramifications. As I mentioned in a previous post, it is easy for people who are not knee-deep in this stuff to puff on their cigars and pontificate on what should be done. Sure, when your Smartphone is outdated, you go out and buy a new one. It’s not so simple for the DoD to do the same. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/46 "2016-05-27T01:42:41Z")
> [@tonyfop](#): > > I still have a working Commodore 128 and a working 5 1/4 floppy drive. Most of my old games still work, the oldest being over 30 years (bought for a C64 in 1985) That’s interesting. About ten years ago, I was trying to find a 3.25" floppy to put a file on (we weren’t always 3’ or less from a flash drive yet) and, while I found a bunch of old ones lying around in drawers and boxes, they all failed to read or format on any of my computers. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/47 "2016-05-27T01:51:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The cost is only that high because they’ve been refusing to upgrade them for generations, I don’t believe there have been computers for generations, unless you are refering to versions of Windows. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/48 "2016-05-27T01:54:17Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I don’t believe there have been computers for generations, unless you are refering to versions of Windows. How long do you consider a generation to be? There are definitely at least three agreed upon generations of computers. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/49 "2016-05-27T02:21:03Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Damn, I wish I’d known about this. We’ve been clearing out stuff in preparation for our Big Move, and some of what got tossed was old floppy disks from the '90s. Bet I could have sold them to the military for $1000 each. > [@astro](#): > > Ebay would have spoiled your plans [tons of 8" disks are still available on ebay](http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=8%22+floppy+ks&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR1.TRC0.A0.H0.X8%22+floppydisks.TRS0&_nkw=8%22+floppydisks&_sacat=0) for a few bucks each. I could buy up all of them on eBay, then sell them to Defense at a huge markup. Don’t forget, these are the guys paying $10,000 for a hammer. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/50 "2016-05-27T02:38:46Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > How long do you consider a generation to be? A baby grows up, has children, and those children grow up and have children. I did mention versions of Windows. Perhaps I am speaking of people and you are speaking of computers. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/51 "2016-05-27T02:44:41Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > A friend of mine was hired by one of the nation’s big insurance companies right out of college (actually, before he even graduated) because my friend studied legacy programming languages and they needed someone who could run their big ancient mainframes. Twenty years later and he still has the same job. Not really a programming language so much as Unix and batch processing. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/52 "2016-05-27T02:49:26Z")
> [@mixdenny](#): > > OH. My. God. I am retired from NASA and we got in those situations every now and then. I think what you really needed, believe it or not, was a “Request to Cannibalize” form. Within which you needed to justify the cannibalization by showing the devalued asset was better off being reused rather than surplussed. Various iterations of the form are still around, just search for it. But my goal wasn’t to restore an old computer. I was trying to sneak in a new computer by making its documentation look like it was an old computer that had been there all along. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/53 "2016-05-27T03:52:52Z")
Replacements are risky - sometimes they don’t work. A rant of mine on a real example is [post=10905372]here[/post]. A US General is quoted in [this article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/05/26/the-real-reason-america-controls-its-nukes-with-ancient-floppy-disks/) as to why old software can be more secure software. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/54 "2016-05-27T04:05:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But my goal wasn’t to restore an old computer. I was trying to sneak in a new computer by making its documentation look like it was an old computer that had been there all along. And I’m surprised it was that easy. I’d have thought you’d at least have to keep the case, saying you replaced everything else. I’m impressed with your ability to get stickers off without damage (to the sticker), too. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/55 "2016-05-27T05:08:48Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > A baby grows up, has children, and those children grow up and have children. > I did mention versions of Windows. Perhaps I am speaking of people and you are speaking of computers. Both. There are three technical generations of computers vacuum tubes, discreet transistors, and integrated circuits. Some people consider that there are further generations but those are not so well agreed upon. In human terms 30 years is easily a generation, so we’re in at least the third generation of human computer use. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/56 "2016-05-27T06:00:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I know a guy who used to work for a major auto part retail chain. The company maintains a warehouse somewhere that’s just stuffed to the rafters with identical models of the same dot-matrix printer. When that style of printer was being discontinued, the company bought up all the available stock, and warehoused it. Twenty years later, when one of the in-store printers breaks down, they haul a new one out of storage and ship it to the store. They’ve apparently still got enough stocked up to last until halfway to the next century. > > I imagine there’s a similar government warehouse somewhere filled with 8" floppies. I see. So they’re stored in those crates next to the Arc Of The Covenant, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/57 "2016-05-27T06:11:49Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I’m impressed with your ability to get stickers off without damage (to the sticker), too. Luckily, I had access to professional criminals. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/58 "2016-05-27T13:37:55Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > In human terms 30 years is easily a generation, so we’re in at least the third generation of human computer use. I take it you are considering analog computers, such as ran fire control on the USS New Jersey in WWII. ---
**Author:** ![BeeGee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5a626/32.png) [@BeeGee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeeGee)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/59 "2016-05-27T19:12:35Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Damn, I wish I’d known about this. We’ve been clearing out stuff in preparation for our Big Move, and some of what got tossed was old floppy disks from the '90s. Bet I could have sold them to the military for $1000 each. No, since you can get them on GSA for .38. [https://www.gsaadvantage.gov/advantage/s/search.do?q=0:2floppy+disks&db=0&searchType=0](https://www.gsaadvantage.gov/advantage/s/search.do?q=0:2floppy+disks&db=0&searchType=0) ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/60 "2016-05-27T20:49:37Z")
Concerning upgrades and the military - I remember a line that said that Starfleet payroll was coded in COBOL. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727.md?page=4)