# Defense Department still using 8-inch floppy disks. Really? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 26, 2016, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727 "2016-05-26T06:48:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/61 "2016-05-27T20:57:28Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I take it you are considering analog computers, such as ran fire control on the USS New Jersey in WWII. No. The first digital computer is usually considered the ENIAC (unless you are English), and announced in 1946. So depending on who you consider the first human computer generation, those born in 1946 or later, or those already alive in 1946 at some age, then we have a 70 year age of digital computers to assign some number of human generations to. ---
**Author:** ![heartsplayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/d9b06d/32.png) [@heartsplayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heartsplayer)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/62 "2016-05-27T22:35:08Z")
> [@Little\_Pig](#): > > No really, [looky here.](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/report-us-spending-75-billion-dollar-budget-aging/story?id=39382059) As someone in the article asks, “I don’t even know where they buy these things.” > > Question. Is it possible that the Defense Department has an exclusive contract with one or two companies to supply 8-inch floppy disks today? Good lord. I didn’t even know that people still used floppy disks in 2016… :eek: ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/63 "2016-05-27T23:49:03Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > No. The first digital computer is usually considered the ENIAC (unless you are English), and announced in 1946. So depending on who you consider the first human computer generation, those born in 1946 or later, or those already alive in 1946 at some age, then we have a 70 year age of digital computers to assign some number of human generations to. You surprise me, and fight ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/64 "2016-05-28T04:26:49Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > A true story about computers and government regulations. In the late 19th century the USN had a term for that, a “great repair.” It got around a Congressional reluctance to build new ships. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/65 "2016-05-28T04:27:25Z")
> [@Little\_Pig](#): > > I understand the argument of keeping old software systems around, but obsolete hardware? I mean, 8-inch floppy drives went out of style when the [Ford Pinto](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto) was still being produced. So where do you get an 8-inch floppy disk in 2016? Who makes 'em? You can be sure that, if there’s a Lucrative Government Contract™ involved, there is going to be a firm somewhere that has made it worth their while to produce 8" floppy disks. I’ve seen 1.44Mb floppy disks for sale recently in a well-known retailer here, and I was trying to think who on Earth would still be using them; I haven’t seen a computer with a functioning floppy disk drive in it for more than a decade. (I know they exist, obviously, but my point is the technology has been obsolete for more than two decades.) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/66 "2016-05-28T04:46:27Z")
> [@Little\_Pig](#): > > I see. So they’re stored in those crates next to the Arc Of The Covenant, yes? Man, can you imagine what being kept next to the Ark of the Covenant would do to magnetic storage media? “Hey, boss? I’m trying to use some of those floppies they sent up from the warehouse, but when I try to access them, my monitor is filled with screaming, melting Nazis.” “Yeah, that’s a known issue. Just reformat it, and you should be fine.” ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/67 "2016-05-28T05:26:31Z")
FTR, what I hate about those new 1.44mb floppies is how SHITTY they are! So, won’t work at 1.44, so I’m trying to reformat them for 720k, theoretically letting them be half as good as they were designed to be. Nope. Less than 180k to make my old Tandy’s read them? Not a chance. You look at them and you can see through them. Rust is about the cheapest thing on this planet, but they can’t be bothered to spray enough on them that they’ll work. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/68 "2016-05-28T05:39:10Z")
What are you using them for, out of interest? I’m trying to think of something besides retro gaming or storing text files that the average punter might still be using 1.44Mb floppies for and not having a lot of luck. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/69 "2016-05-28T11:23:19Z")
> [@BeeGee](#): > > No, since you can get them on GSA for .38. > [https://www.gsaadvantage.gov/advantage/s/search.do?q=0:2floppy+disks&db=0&searchType=0](https://www.gsaadvantage.gov/advantage/s/search.do?q=0:2floppy+disks&db=0&searchType=0) Stop oppressing my dream! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/70 "2016-05-28T11:41:59Z")
I’m surprised they use floppies, but not magnetic media. Aren’t there still magnetic backup tapes that are really cheap per byte of storage if you buy in bulk, and keep better than optical and spinning-plate media? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/71 "2016-05-28T12:36:21Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > What are you using them for, out of interest? I’m trying to think of something besides retro gaming or storing text files that the average punter might still be using 1.44Mb floppies for and not having a lot of luck. We have some old HP and B&K spectrum analyzers at work which use 3.5" floppy drives for exported data. We don’t use them anymore, but I’m aware of some people who do. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/72 "2016-05-28T17:26:59Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I could buy up all of them on eBay, then sell them to Defense at a huge markup. Don’t forget, these are the guys paying $10,000 for a hammer. I’m pretty sure the DOD has some low level clerk picking these things up off ebay. The history of the 8 inch disk was that it was introduced commercially in 1971 and production ran into the early 80’s. There are gazillions of these things out there and I’d bet many are in sealed boxes. I would imagine that at best the total number of DOD 8: based systems in place need only a few hundred of these floppies at any given time. There is more than enough out there in the secondary market to keep these machines going without starting up new production. _If_ the media stays stable. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/73 "2016-05-28T17:43:36Z")
Somebody is probably still making them. The material may still be in use so there’s a machine to stamp out circles, and the cardboard cases can be manufactured anywhere. As someone already mentioned there’s going to be a lucrative contract for someone to supply new disks annually. Even if it goes out for competitive bidding no one is going to spend the money to gear up to make them so the remaining suppliers will keep raking in the costs plus every year. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/74 "2016-05-28T21:36:01Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > FTR, what I hate about those new 1.44mb floppies is how SHITTY they are! So, won’t work at 1.44, so I’m trying to reformat them for 720k, theoretically letting them be half as good as they were designed to be. Nope. Less than 180k to make my old Tandy’s read them? Not a chance. You look at them and you can see through them. Rust is about the cheapest thing on this planet, but they can’t be bothered to spray enough on them that they’ll work. :mad: I’m convinced that the only reason some people still have floppies that work is that there was a gradual decline in quality. Every floppy I own had bad sectors after a couple years, even though I kept them in a case designed for them–even if I never used them except once to copy off of them. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/75 "2016-05-29T01:23:47Z")
> [@astro](#): > > I’m pretty sure the DOD has some low level clerk picking these things up off ebay. I think they bought a couple million of them when they set up computers with drives that used them. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/76 "2016-06-08T01:59:21Z")
Is it too late for my 15 minutes? I briefly worked on this system (as an enlisted programmer) 10-15 years ago. The mainframes themselves had hard drives, but the 8" floppies were necessary to load the software onto them. Our dev environment was an unimpressive modern pc running unix, emulating CP/CMS, which we accessed with 3270 terminal emulators. For whatever reason, when we were ready to load a build onto a floppy we had to send it via 2400 b/s modems to some mid-80s minicomputer that could work with the 8" drives. Of course we knew how ridiculous it all was and would have loved to upgrade, but we just had enough money to keep the lights on. Anyone have any questions? ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/77 "2016-06-08T04:32:30Z")
I knew of companies running Series/1 mini’s long after their past due date. The problem with the floppies was the drive mechanisms - there were belts and cogs and gears and spindles etc. All those parts were literally disintegrating, especially the belts. This was back in 2002… I can’t imagine how the Defense Dept. can still keep them alive. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/78 "2016-06-08T05:15:05Z")
“60 Minutes” did a piece about this a couple years ago. In short, the computer system in the missile silos is designed to do that, and ONLY that, and is not connected to the Internet or any other system, to make it as hack-proof as possible. > **[Who's minding the nukes?](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/inside-american-nuclear-control-center-60-minutes/)** > > Lesley Stahl gets rare access inside an American nuclear control center and meets the young airmen who watch over some of the world’s deadliest weapons ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/79 "2016-06-08T16:11:37Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > A true story about computers and government regulations. > > I worked in a government agency. While I had an official office, I more frequently used an unofficial office. I wanted to get a computer in my unofficial office. One of my co-workers also worked part time at a computer shop and could hook us up with a decent slightly-outdated used computer for around fifty dollars, which would be fine for what we would use it for. > > The problem was all electronic devices were highly regulated. They had to all be registered on a central index. Adding a new computer to the index and getting it registered would have been virtually impossible, even if I paid for it myself. > > And they would periodically check. They had auditors come through the entire facility and look at each electronic device. They wanted to see the sticker with its registration number. They would then look up the registration number and confirm that device belonged in that location. Having an unauthorized device could be a serious issue. > > But we had an old storage building and it was full of old equipment, which was either horribly outdated or didn’t work. But all this old equipment was technically registered. > > Some I asked some of the powers-that-be if I could take one of the old computers from storage and put it in my unofficial office. They said _“You can but you know those are really old computers and most of them don’t even work.”_ I said _“Well, okay, can I take one of those old computers that isn’t working and fix it by replacing some of its parts and then use it?”_ And they agreed I could. > > So I went down to storage and dug up an old computer, which I had registered as being located in my unofficial office. I then removed its registration sticker. I then “fixed” it by “replacing” some parts - I threw out the old computer and brought in the new computer (nobody said I couldn’t replace 100% of the parts), I attached the old registration sticker to the new computer and as far as the index was concerned this new computer was now the old computer, even though the only part from the old computer that was still present was the sticker itself. But any auditor who checked would see that this old computer was registered to be in my office. Is that you, [Theseus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus)? ETA: I see Senegoid made [essentially the same comment](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19360807&postcount=38) a week ago. Ninja’d! That trick wouldn’t work in the property-control and network-management regimes I work in, because (A) the auditors would also check the machine’s actual manufacturer and serial number for a match, so you’d have to alter that (which is hard to get away with), and (B) on the network, the switches would know I had a different network adapter (MAC address) than I had before and lock the machine out of the LAN. But in a simpler time, a more innocent era, your cleverness could work. ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727/80 "2016-06-08T16:29:11Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Defense Department still using 8-inch floppy disks. Really? I don’t know why anyone would be surprised to see the ever-expanding government-military complex trapped in this self-made, viscous cycle. Under the circumstances (many and varied), people should be happy their big-government and high-tech defense systems work at all. So what if an ancient (in relative terms) diskette holds data for a million-dollar ICBM? “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” is always going to be the mantra in a budget-driven, politicized environment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defense-department-still-using-8-inch-floppy-disks-really/755727.md?page=3)