# Defensive gun use **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 9, 2015, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defensive-gun-use/739955 "2015-12-09T16:01:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defensive-gun-use/739955/1 "2015-12-09T16:01:04Z")
I just stumbled across this story as I was browsing. It’s several months old, but I hadn’t heard it before. It’s relevant, because it shows how more guns can prevent things like mass killings. > [@](#): > > Authorities say no charges will be filed against an Uber driver who shot and wounded a gunman who opened fire on a crowd of people in Logan Square over the weekend. [http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-uber-driver-shoots-gunman-met-0420-20150419-story.html](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-uber-driver-shoots-gunman-met-0420-20150419-story.html) If _just one person_ who was caught up in the shootings in Colorado Springs and San Bernadino had been carrying a gun, the outcomes of those events might have been very different. Like John Lott says, “more guns, less crime.” ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defensive-gun-use/739955/2 "2015-12-09T16:18:45Z")
I’m very pro-gun, but if a lot of people carried I can see a lot of problems with confusion between bad guys and people trying to stop the bad guys. It could turn a situation with one active shooter to multiple active shooters, and when the police arrive they wouldn’t know who the good guys and bad guys are. Or the bad guy starts shooting, a good guy starts shooting back, a second good guy comes into the room, sees only the good guy shooting, and starts shooting the good guy thinking he is stopping an attack. With uniformed police officers it’s (almost always) easy to know they are law enforcement. With someone wearing jeans and a leather jacket, how would you know? ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defensive-gun-use/739955/3 "2015-12-09T16:28:35Z")
Another comment, it is rather sad that these crimes thwarted by defensive firearm use don’t get nearly the press that the tragedies do. The American Rifleman magazine normally publishes a dozen or more summaries of defensive uses of firearms each month (normally not for mass-shootings though.) ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defensive-gun-use/739955/4 "2015-12-09T17:01:21Z")
First of all, like you said, the event in the OP happened back in April. Funny that it’s spreading around social media now as a big “But what if a good guy had a gun” woulda coulda response to the tragedy in San Bernardino. I guess the gun lobby couldn’t find something a little more recent. Second, as a counterpoint, I’ll [link to an incident](http://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2015/12/06/victim-neenah-shooting-identified/76880850/) that just happened in my state a few days ago where one of a group of hostages taken at a cycle shop was shot by police. He was able to get away but was apparently armed and ran from the building toward police and then ignored their commands to drop his weapon. The police obviously assumed he was the hostage taker. Just goes to show that not everyone with a concealed carry permit is ready to turn into Rambo when the shit hits the fan. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defensive-gun-use/739955/5 "2015-12-09T17:10:07Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > Just goes to show that not everyone with a concealed carry permit is ready to turn into Rambo when the shit hits the fan. But it’s better to have the ability to choose than not. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defensive-gun-use/739955/6 "2015-12-09T17:20:25Z")
Actually, there was a CCW carrier at San Bernardino. If I remember, he couldn’t get a clear enough shot to risk the exposure. Let me find it. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defensive-gun-use/739955/7 "2015-12-09T17:46:17Z")
A restaurant in Little Rock was robbed by half a dozen armed guys. Some of the folks there were carrying, but they didn’t shoot, knowing that the five guys left would begin firing. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defensive-gun-use/739955/8 "2015-12-09T17:46:40Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > If _just one person_ who was caught up in the shootings in Colorado Springs and San Bernadino had been carrying a gun, the outcomes of those events might have been very different. Point. [Counter-point](http://www.khou.com/story/news/2015/09/27/one-man-injured-after-carjacking-shooting-at-gas-station/72923278/). You’ll get a lot more of the latter as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defensive-gun-use/739955/9 "2015-12-09T18:40:45Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Actually, there was a CCW carrier at San Bernardino. If I remember, he couldn’t get a clear enough shot to risk the exposure. > > Let me find it. [Here is one such article.](http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/12/daniel-zimmerman/380705/) > [@](#): > > According to the account given by the business owner to ABC News, a man was filling up his water truck at a fire hydrant when he heard shots ring out. The man ran into the business and told the business owner what he believed was happening. The owner had a handgun and proceeded out to the water truck to observe the situation. > > He told ABC News that he saw a couple of people get into a tinted-windowed black SUV and roll off calmly. As he had an estimated 12 employees inside, he stood his ground and kept watch over the business. > > Throughout the course of the event, he attempted to gain safe passage for his employees to leave by coordinating with the sheriff and deputies actively handling the situation. It’s unclear how far away this person was, but observing and determining the best course of action is to stay put seems reasonable to me. San Bernardino is a county in CA that regularly issues permits. [They’ve had a sharp rise](http://abc7.com/news/demand-for-ccw-permits-surge-following-san-bernardino-attack/1114805/) in applications lately. It’s not out of the question there were more than one carrier in a not too large radius, however that is very different than if there were a carrier in the Regional Center itself. I’m not aware if that is the case. In any event, the conclusion seems right to me: > [@](#): > > So, to recap: responsible California gun owner realizes an active shooting situation is going on next door and stays put to protect his employees and shop in case the violence surges over into his business. > > That’s the responsible choice. > [@Flyer](#): > > I just stumbled across this story as I was browsing. It’s several months old, but I hadn’t heard it before. It’s relevant, because it shows how more guns can prevent things like mass killings. I mentioned this incident [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18543374&postcount=232)and [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18698174&postcount=100). ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defensive-gun-use/739955/10 "2015-12-09T19:20:19Z")
A pro-gun group in Texas recreated the Charlie Hebdo attack with paintball guns, to see whether the presence of an armed civilian would have saved any of the victims. [It didn’t.](http://http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/texas-pro-gun-group-recreates-charlie-hebdo-attack-article-1.2081534) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defensive-gun-use/739955/11 "2015-12-09T20:04:19Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > [Here is one such article.](http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/12/daniel-zimmerman/380705/) > > It’s unclear how far away this person was, but observing and determining the best course of action is to stay put seems reasonable to me. That may have been it. It was something I noticed in the deluge of breaking news but I didn’t remember much of the details. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defensive-gun-use/739955/12 "2015-12-09T20:45:01Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > I just stumbled across this story as I was browsing. It’s several months old, but I hadn’t heard it before. It’s relevant, because it shows how more guns can prevent things like mass killings. > [http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-uber-driver-shoots-gunman-met-0420-20150419-story.html](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-uber-driver-shoots-gunman-met-0420-20150419-story.html) > > If _just one person_ who was caught up in the shootings in Colorado Springs and San Bernadino had been carrying a gun, the outcomes of those events might have been very different. > > Like John Lott says, “more guns, less crime.” That story was back in April. There has been on average a mass shooting every day in the US for the past year. Over 400 people killed and 1000 injured in the past year So I guess all those deaths and injuries are a small price for to say that one Uber driver was able to stop a single mass shooting with his handgun. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defensive-gun-use/739955/13 "2015-12-09T20:47:35Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > A pro-gun group in Texas recreated the Charlie Hebdo attack with paintball guns, to see whether the presence of an armed civilian would have saved any of the victims. > > [It didn’t.](http://http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/texas-pro-gun-group-recreates-charlie-hebdo-attack-article-1.2081534) I’ve seen similar recreations and statistics that basically support the same thing. Relatively untrained civilians going about their normal business are typically unable to assess a mass shooting situation and respond with deadly force in a timely enough manner to change the outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defensive-gun-use/739955/14 "2015-12-09T20:53:34Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > A pro-gun group in Texas recreated the Charlie Hebdo attack with paintball guns, to see whether the presence of an armed civilian would have saved any of the victims. > > [It didn’t.](http://http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/texas-pro-gun-group-recreates-charlie-hebdo-attack-article-1.2081534) More in-depth discussion [here](http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/01/foghorn/ttag-charly-hebdo-simulation-preliminary-results/) by the guys who put on the exercise. Two guys who get to play with rifles all day, vs one volunteer with one Glock, is going to be very tough on the volunteer. Especially when the ‘terrorists’ are expecting to be shot at, something that doesn’t happen in most mass shooting events, until the very end of them. FWIW, IMHO the instructors (who were playing the terrorist role) here, are going to be much more highly trained and capable assailants than your typical jihadi. OTOH, the instructors weren’t wearing bomb vests/belts. Interesting test, thanks for mentioning it and forcing me to go look it up. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defensive-gun-use/739955/15 "2015-12-09T20:56:56Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > There has been on average a mass shooting every day in the US for the past year. Surely you exaggerate. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defensive-gun-use/739955/16 "2015-12-09T21:06:55Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Surely you exaggerate. There’s been a recent change in the definition(s) of mass shooting. [Snopes.](http://www.snopes.com/351-mass-shootings/) ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defensive-gun-use/739955/17 "2015-12-09T21:18:58Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Surely you exaggerate. It really depends on how you define the term “mass shooting.” The [relevant Reddit page](https://www.reddit.com/r/GunsAreCool/wiki/2015massshootings) or Mass Shooting Tracker defines it as: “four or more people shot in one event.” As a [critic](http://truthinmedia.com/fact-check-355-mass-shootings-far-2015/)pointed out, this definition also covers, " > [@](#): > > gang shootouts, robberies and drug deals gone wrong, suicide-by-cop incidents in which bystanders were inadvertently injured by police, and other incidents that deviate drastically from the Columbine and Sandy Hook type events that most Americans think of when talking about a mass shooting. The older [FBI definition](https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder) dealt with “Mass Murder”, > [@](#): > > …mass murder was described as a number of murders (four or more) occurring during the same incident, with no distinctive time period between the murders. These events typically involved a single location, where the killer murdered a number of victims in an ongoing incident (e.g. the 1984 San Ysidro McDonalds incident in San Diego, California; the 1991 Luby’s Restaurant massacre in Killeen, Texas; and the 2007 Virginia Tech murders in Blacksburg, Virginia). The FBI did do a [controversial report on active shooters](https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2014/september/fbi-releases-study-on-active-shooter-incidents/pdfs/a-study-of-active-shooter-incidents-in-the-u.s.-between-2000-and-2013) last year, with a different definition yet again. [Here](http://www.acjs.org/uploads/file/ACJS_Today_March_2015.pdf) are criminologist John Lott’s criticisms of the report, at page 18 of the Pdf. **Tl;dr** : the ~“400 mass shootings a year” number is dramatically overinclusive, does not fit the public’s perception of a mass shooting event, and primarily captures shootings committed by the main driver of gun crime in the U.S.: urban organized criminals engaging in disputes with each other, mainly over the narcotics trade, and affecting innocent bystanders. These are people who, by and large, are already legally unable to possess a firearm, due to their status as prior felons, their age, or both. And yet they still do. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defensive-gun-use/739955/18 "2015-12-09T21:21:11Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > There’s been a recent change in the definition(s) of mass shooting. > > [Snopes.](http://www.snopes.com/351-mass-shootings/) Thanks, running coach. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defensive-gun-use/739955/19 "2015-12-10T03:31:57Z")
Yeah, according to Snopes, there have been _ **only** _ 310 ‘Mass Shootings’ - MUCH better, right? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defensive-gun-use/739955/20 "2015-12-10T03:48:57Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > Yeah, according to Snopes, there have been _ **only** _ 310 ‘Mass Shootings’ - MUCH better, right? :dubious: I don’t see how four constitutes a mass. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defensive-gun-use/739955.md?page=2)