# Defiant Chief Justice Vows to Keep Ten Commandments Monument **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2003, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319 "2003-08-15T03:27:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![GodlessSkeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GodlessSkeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GodlessSkeptic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/221 "2003-08-23T19:41:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*Note that this is the number of days in a year, and the number of human bones thought to be in the body at the time. Which means that someone decided that there had to be a certain number of commandments _before they even knew what they would all be_. It’s possible to be a little TOO into numerology, sheesh. > > G’ O"Reily: > I think they all thought you were claiming that this reference to the TC WAS refferring to the monument’s version. GS said they appeared nowhere in regards to THE TC (meaning the ones Moore is displaying) but I think you interpreted him to be saying that it appears nowhere in the OT at all (which he wasn’t, and which isn’t true). \*\* Waitaminute…I AM still a liberal atheist, right? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/222 "2003-08-23T20:51:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GodlessSkeptic \* > \*\*How would you fundies feel if you were accused of a heinous crime, were dragged kicking and praying before a judge who was known for espousing “strong atheist” views adn who had a plaque on the wall behind him which contained some strong atheist sentiment or the other and who had erected a statue of Madeline Murray O’hare in the front of the courthouse. > You would not feel a little uneasy?Because I would be absolutely terrified to appear before Judge Moore, to the point that I would probably cop a plea even if I were totally innocent of the crime I was accused of. > > THAT is why we have SOCAS.THAT is why officials speaking or acting in an OFFICIAL capacity cannot endorse one religion over another any more than they are allowed to endorse one race over another. \*\* This event is not about the ten commandments or the separation of church and state. This event started with Madeline Murray O’Hare, and the formation of the Atheist religion. First came the loss of prayer in schools, then there were attacks on the pledge of allegience, the national anthem, the word “God” being spoken, etc., etc. The atheists are well organized, they preach, proselytize, and promote their beliefs wherever they can. If you can believe the posts on this board they feel they are superior to those who believe in God and claim they are attacking the ignorance of these “God” people. They use prolific name-calling to do so. They respect the rights of no groups save their own. Now, I don’t agree with Judge Moore, and I am not a Christian. Then came the current event, the Judge didn’t roll over, He stood his ground. He appealed to the Christian right and the buses started rolling. The anti-abortion people threw in with the others and we now have a large confrontation developing. It may be that the ten commandments will leave the building, but the battle is far from over. The “G”-- word folks are angry, and they will write their congressmen, preach from their pulpits, and vote in their people to change the issues. I can’t tell you how this will come out, but if I were an atheist I would start respecting the rights of others to believe what they wish as guaranteed by the constitution. Good Luck ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/223 "2003-08-23T21:10:57Z")
lekatt, you cannot possibly hope to take serious part in an honest discussion about this issue if you insist in misrepresenting the issues involved. It isn’t prayer, it’s the government directing children to pray. It isn’t stopping anyone from saying the pledge, or singing the national anthem, it’s about stopping the government from doing so. No one is forcing anyone to stop talking about God. Atheism is not my religion, nor do I have any regard for O’Hair. So stop misrepresenting both the issues and the people here. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/224 "2003-08-23T21:44:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > This event is not about the ten commandments or the separation of church and state. Yes it is. > [@](#): > > This event started with Madeline Murray O’Hare, and the formation of the Atheist religion. No it didn’t. > [@](#): > > First came the loss of prayer in schools, then there were attacks on the pledge of allegience, the national anthem, the word “God” being spoken, etc., etc. More lies. No one is being stopped from speaking the word “God”. No one is being stopped from _ **publicly** _ practicing their religion, or _ **publicly** _ preaching their religion to others and seeking converts. > [@](#): > > The atheists are well organized, they preach, proselytize, and promote their beliefs wherever they can. If you can believe the posts on this board they feel they are superior to those who believe in God and claim they are attacking the ignorance of these “God” people. They use prolific name-calling to do so. > They respect the rights of no groups save their own. We also spread plagues by poisoning the wells. > [@](#): > > I can’t tell you how this will come out, but if I were an atheist I would start respecting the rights of others to believe what they wish as guaranteed by the constitution. Why don’t you just come right out and demand that all atheists be hunted down and killed? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/225 "2003-08-23T21:52:59Z")
Wow, **MEB** , I thought you knew better than to get sucked into an argument with **lekatt**. You’d have more success trying to nail Jello to a tree…or beating your head against it. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/226 "2003-08-23T21:54:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*lekatt, you cannot possibly hope to take serious part in an honest discussion about this issue if you insist in misrepresenting the issues involved. > > It isn’t prayer, it’s the government directing children to pray. > It isn’t stopping anyone from saying the pledge, or singing the national anthem, it’s about stopping the government from doing so. No one is forcing anyone to stop talking about God. > > Atheism is not my religion, nor do I have any regard for O’Hair. > > So stop misrepresenting both the issues and the people here. \*\* I have no desire to take part in any discussion here. You are the one misrepresenting the facts. I went to school when prayer was legal, there was no government directive to pray. What you say is false. The singing of the anthem was not allowed at school games, and there was a court order against saying the pledge. There was an honor guard soldier that lost his job for saying “God Bless You”. He was just recently reinstated. I, personally, am not bothered by these acts, just explaining how the “ignorant” folks feel. The atheists have always had a tendency to twist the words to suit themselves. You get your facts straight. ---
**Author:** ![Publius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@Publius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Publius)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/227 "2003-08-23T22:11:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\* > I went to school when prayer was legal, there was no government directive to pray. What you say is false. > > The singing of the anthem was not allowed at school games, and there was a court order against saying the pledge. > \*\* I also went to school when prayer was legal. I’m still in school. It’s still legal. What is not legal is to coerce students into practicing religion when they do not want to. Teachers are paid to teach; they are not paid to worship, pray, or to compel their students to do so. I do not learn calculus in church. I do not expect to learn about God in public school. For the record, we have sung the national anthem at every high school sporting event that I have ever been to. In conclusion: cite? P.S. > [@](#): > > \*\* > You get your facts straight. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/228 "2003-08-23T22:12:48Z")
Pssst…prayer is still legal in school, **lekatt**. (btw, why would the _National Anthem_ be banned in school? It doesn’t mention God.) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/229 "2003-08-23T22:14:14Z")
Publius: I just took lekatt’s “You get your facts straight” as a freudian admission that it is the rest of the posters and not he who is actually getting facts straight; an observation, if you will, instead of an imperative. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/230 "2003-08-23T22:42:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Publius \* > \*\*I also went to school when prayer was legal. I’m still in school. It’s still legal. > > What is not legal is to coerce students into practicing religion when they do not want to. Teachers are paid to teach; they are not paid to worship, pray, or to compel their students to do so. > > I do not learn calculus in church. I do not expect to learn about God in public school. > > For the record, we have sung the national anthem at every high school sporting event that I have ever been to. > > In conclusion: cite? > P.S. \*\* It was not legal to coerce students into practicing religion in my time either. No one was forced to pray and prayer is not practicing religion. Times were a lot worse then, in the middle of WWII. prayer helped a lot to express feelings. Religion is a set of rules, regulations, laws, on how to worship God, it is different with different religions. Spiritual practices such as prayer, kindness and love are not religion. God does exist, as a higher intelligence, and can be experienced. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/231 "2003-08-23T22:54:35Z")
> [@](#): > > I have no desire to take part in any discussion here. No one is forcing you to. > [@](#): > > You are the one misrepresenting the facts. You make a bold assertion, but then fail to back it up in any way. The fact is, I am correct. What the SC banned was schools leading kids in prayer, and what is and always has been legal and fine is individuals or freely groups praying any time they want. This was done. Schools did direct kids to pray, whatever happened in your very limited experience. > [@](#): > > It was not legal to coerce students into practicing religion in my time either. No one was forced to pray and prayer is not practicing religion. You are wrong, yet again. Many schools led students in prayer, and that was exactly what the court case was about, and put a stop to. If you missed out on this, great, but that doesn’t make it not part of history. > [@](#): > > Times were a lot worse then, in the middle of WWII. prayer helped a lot to express feelings. That’s great: so what’s stopping people from getting together and pray to express their feelings? Nothing is. > [@](#): > > Spiritual practices such as prayer, kindness and love are not religion. I’m sorry, but leading children in the Lord’s Prayer is leading them in a religious practice. It isn’t just atheists that object to this, but Jews, Jehovah’s Witnesses and sects that may teach different things. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/232 "2003-08-24T00:08:03Z")
lekatt: If “your time” in schools was during World War II, then you are telling us all a lie by saying that nobody was forced to pray then. Quite a few public schools had mandatory public prayer at the start of the school day back then. And, of course, spiritual practices and prayer are most certainly religious practices; unless, of course, you happen to be redefining the words on the fly so only you know which particular word fits which particular definition. Your final assertion about God’s existence is a religious belief and it is not a fact, no matter how fervently you wish the rest of us bought into your b…er, world view. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/233 "2003-08-24T00:56:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Wow, **MEB** , I thought you knew better than to get sucked into an argument with **lekatt**. You’d have more success trying to nail Jello to a tree…or beating your head against it. \*\* It’s impossible to have a debate with someone who refuses to acknowledge the possibility that they could be wrong and refuses to take any arguments against their world view seriously. Lekatt seems to be one of those people. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/234 "2003-08-24T01:16:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > Religion is a set of rules, regulations, laws, on how to worship God, it is different with different religions. > > Spiritual practices such as prayer, kindness and love are not religion. God does exist, as a higher intelligence, and can be experienced. Lekatt, to verify your claims that “spiritual practices such as prayer” do not fall within the definition of “religion”, I cracked open my **American Heritage Dictionary, Third Edition (1994)** Here is the first entry for RELIGION: > [@](#): > > 1.a. **Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator or governor of the universe.** > > b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief. Then I looked up the word PRAYER: > [@](#): > > 1. A reverent petition made to a deity. 2. An act of praying. 3. A specially worded form of praying 4. **A religious > observance in which praying predominates.** Do you still stick with your claim that prayer is not considered religious? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/235 "2003-08-24T01:36:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Pssst…prayer is still legal in school, **lekatt**. > > (btw, why would the _National Anthem_ be banned in school? It doesn’t mention God.) \*\* To be fair to Lekatt, The National Anthem DOES have the word God in it. However, it is on last of 4 stanzas, and when I was in school we NEVER made it further than the first Stanza. The full text of the Star Spangled Banner, by Francis Scott Key (1814) > [@](#): > > Oh, say can you see, by the dawn’s early light, > What so proudly we hailed at the twilight’s last gleaming? > Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight, > O’er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming? > And the rockets’ red glare, the bombs bursting in air, > Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there. > O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave > O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave? > > On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep, > Where the foe’s haughty host in dread silence reposes, > What is that which the breeze, o’er the towering steep, > As it fitfully blows, now conceals, now discloses? > Now it catches the gleam of the morning’s first beam, > In full glory reflected now shines on the stream: > 'Tis the star-spangled banner! O long may it wave > O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave. > > And where is that band who so vauntingly swore > That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion > A home and a country should leave us no more? > Their blood has wiped out their foul footstep’s pollution. > No refuge could save the hireling and slave > From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave: > And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave > O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave. > > Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand > Between their loved homes and the war’s desolation! > Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land > Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation. > Then conquer we must, for our cause it is just, > And this be our motto: “In God is our trust.” > And the star-spangled banner forever shall wave > O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave! Sources: [http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/ssb.html](http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/ssb.html) > **[The Star-Spangled Banner](https://www.infoplease.com/primary-sources/government/miscellaneous/star-spangled-banner)** > > ?Francis Scott Key, 1814O say, can you see, by the dawn's early light,What so proudly we hail'd at the twilight's last gleaming?Whose broad stripes and bright stars, thro' the perilous fight,O'er the ramparts we watch'd, were so gallantly streaming? [http://www.usa-flag-site.org/song-lyrics/star-spangled-banner.shtml](http://www.usa-flag-site.org/song-lyrics/star-spangled-banner.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/236 "2003-08-24T01:59:07Z")
I personally don’t give a damn whether the courts display the Ten Commandents or a statue of Yog-Sothoth, but I would like lekatt and other supporters of Judge Moore to answer two simple questions: Why do you think this is a good thing, and why do you think such public displays are going to change people? I live in southwestern Indiana, an area where a fair number of people place in their yards posters displaying the Decalogue. At one point on Indiana 54 between Dugger and Sullivan, a person has erected a series of outdoor posters, each displaying his interpretation of each commandent. The first time I saw it, I thought Burma Shave signs were making a comeback. All that public display of the Decalogue has not stopped southwestern Indiana from becoming the meth capital of the Known Universe. It hasn’t stopped me from chasing women and smoking dope when I can get it. I am really puzzled as to what you think such public displays will accomplish. BTW, lekatt, I covered hundreds of high school games while working four years as sports editor at two small newspapers. I can assure you that in the Hoosier state playing or singing the National Anthem before games is still a tradition. Some people may not sing along, but everybody stands and most of the men remove our hats. The performances range from truly awful – trumpet players who flat notes by two octaves – to truly beautiful _a capella_ performances and the wonderful, jazzlike ensemble instrumentals by South Knox and Linton high schools. Incidentally, the original version of the Pledge, and I think it should be mandatory to recite it each day, did not contain the words “under God.” That was added in the '50’s. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/237 "2003-08-24T02:01:01Z")
I think we’re being a bit abrupt with Leroy, people. I wasn’t in school with Leroy, and the world was different then. Leroy, how about you tell us what you mean by prayer in school? What happened? Was it daily? Weekly? When did it happen? Seriously, I’d like to know. ---
**Author:** ![Franko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7ab992/32.png) [@Franko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Franko)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/238 "2003-08-24T03:10:36Z")
Chief Justice Roy Moore may loose his job as a Judge, but He will now be a shoe-in for Governer, or State Senator, he’s a hero now in predominantly Christian Alabama. ``` Franko ``` ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/239 "2003-08-24T04:00:39Z")
Abrupt with leroy? He thinks that just because he has recollections of his own particular childhood, that means that well-documented historical events and practices never happened. The least sung verse of the anthem is the third, for pretty obvious reasons. The anthem, just for anyone who doesn’t know, is also a later addition that came well after the founders and Constitutional conventioners were dead. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/240 "2003-08-24T04:30:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*lekatt: If “your time” in schools was during World War II, then you are telling us all a lie by saying that nobody was forced to pray then. Quite a few public schools had mandatory public prayer at the start of the school day back then. And, of course, spiritual practices and prayer are most certainly religious practices; unless, of course, you happen to be redefining the words on the fly so only you know which particular word fits which particular definition. > > Your final assertion about God’s existence is a religious belief and it is not a fact, no matter how fervently you wish the rest of us bought into your b…er, world view. \*\* Tried to decide which post to answer, they all say about the same thing. When I went to school, in the morning, at the start of school, all gathered on the schools grounds, and the flag was saluted, then a short prayer was offered. The prayer usually concerned the war effort, such as: “Guide our leaders in this conflict…etc.”. It is interesting to note that we used to salute the flag with arm extended like the Germans said their “seige heil”. This was changed to the present form. We didn’t have any atheists that I know of, but we did have Native Americans, Jehovah Witnesses, and others, for reasons of their own didn’t want to participate in these activities. They were allowed to go on to class or just stand with their arms at their sides as they wished. No one thought anything of it. We respected others beliefs, because we were taught in school to do so. We never needed O’Hare to rescue those with different beliefs. We, as Americans believed in diversity, and the rights of others. My final assertion was not a religious belief, I know God exists through personal experience, a near death experience. I realize atheists deny them, it is ok, I don’t mind. Jesus said: “Blessed are they that have not seen, yet believe.” I have seen, I know. And I am not sure what “b…er” means, but if it represents some nasty name. I would rather you be honest, and just say it. God Bless America [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319.md?page=13)