# Defiant Chief Justice Vows to Keep Ten Commandments Monument **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2003, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319 "2003-08-15T03:27:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/241 "2003-08-24T05:01:19Z")
So, who led the prayers, Leroy? Was it a teacher? I want you to put yourself in the place of the jewish or native american students. Simply by not participating in the prayer, they were being marked as not part of the group. Think about that. Think about how it would make you feel, day after day, to stand to the side and watch everyone but you do something that made you feel intensely excluded. I certainly can. Personally, I have nothing against religion. I respect it, and I deeply respect those who have faith. I have none, but only by default; my mother and father are of different religions, and I was never brought to a religious environment as a child. I eagerly await a revelation by any god who chooses, but none has seen fit to grant me a personal experience, yet. I can tell you this: When I do get forced to show up at a church… say, a sleepover with a friend, or a funeral or wedding, I feel not unlike a vampire, as if I should catch on fire and burn simply by being present at a location which is so intently not of my path. Being present at a table where someone has requested everyone say grace is not as bad. I quietly bow my head or hold hands as requested and say nothing. But it still is an almost physical pain. Do you understand the point where I stand, Leroy? Oh, I believe that “b…er” means “A word starting with b, followed by a pause, and then a clearing of the throat described as ‘er’.” ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/242 "2003-08-24T05:05:48Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by lekatt_ > We didn’t have any atheists that I know of, but we did have Native Americans, Jehovah Witnesses, and others, for reasons of their own didn’t want to participate in these activities. They were allowed to go on to class or just stand with their arms at their sides as they wished. No one thought anything of it. We respected others beliefs, because we were taught in school to do so. > [@](#): > > The sect [the Jehovah’s Witnesses] faced sanctions from the police and courts, as well as vigilantes. In 1937, Newark police jailed a hundred Witnesses as they were “considered dangerous.” In response to aggressive preaching, many local communities tried to regulate public speech, setting off a series of cases which produced some key decisions from the US Supreme Court. Some conflicts resulted in straightforward Witness victories: when a Georgia town prohibited the distribution of literature without prior official approval, the Court upheld the challenge of a Witness who felt that this restricted her rights to free speech. In 1940, the Cantwell case invalidated a rule in Connecticut that prevented Witnesses from presenting their incendiary views through phonograph records played in the street, even in a highly Catholic area. Also in 1940, nevertheless, the Supreme Court overrode Witness objections when it upheld a local Pennsylvania ordinance requiring children to salute the flag as a means of inculcating political loyalty: this decision confirmed the expulsion of two Witness children who had refused to bow down before what they saw as Dagon. > > The next three years were bitter ones for the Witnesses, who faced what has been termed “the greatest outbreak of religious intolerance in twentieth century America.” Much of the worst violence occurred in 1940: a Witness meeting in Little Rock was stormed by a mob, resulting in two Witnesses being shot, and several others being hospitalized. Witnesses were tarred and feathered in Wyoming, and a Nebraska believer was castrated, while other mob violence occurred sporadically through the war years. The sect was banned in Canada, with adults placed in work-camps, and some children were removed from their families. In 1941, a critic of American cults marveled at the success of Witness leader Judge Rutherford who “offers his disciples… nothing but misunderstanding and trouble, the lockup and fractured skulls. They love it. They go happily here and there getting cracked heads and being thrown into jail for the cause, having their children mobbed in school for refusing to salute the flag and their houses painted a sickly yellow for refusing to paint them themselves.” The following year, the Supreme Court’s Chaplinsky case held that free speech protections did not cover the Witnesses’ intemperate denunciations of church and state, so that an evangelist could be punished for calling a police officer “a god-damned racketeer” and “a damned fascist.” – from [The Great Anti-Cult Scare 1935-1945](http://www.cesnur.org/testi/bryn/br_jenkins.htm) by Philip Jenkins, on the website of the [Center for Studies on New Religions](http://www.cesnur.org) ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/243 "2003-08-24T05:09:24Z")
> [@](#): > > We never needed O’Hare to rescue those with different beliefs. We, as Americans believed in diversity, and the rights of others. Americans can believe in anything they want. That’s what’s so great about America. But Americans have no right to use public money and publically mandated attendance for secretarian activities. Basically, you just admitted that what you accused us all of being wrong about for claim was, in fact, true. If this is not a pointless run around, I don’t know what is. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/244 "2003-08-24T09:58:42Z")
lekatt: I can’t tell you how pleased I am that you finally admitted that you have intentionally been misrepresenting things on these boards. What would be even better is if you would finally understand that your experience at one school does not constitute the experience of the entire country. And it would be even better than that if you would also recognize the simple fact that your belief in deity is itself a religious belief. Your personal appraisal of whatever happened to you or for you in your life does not constitute scientific evidence of the existence of deity. You would rather I be honest? That’s rich! “b…er” basically means “bullshit…er.” It’s not a nasty name. It’s an extremely accurate description of your postings on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/245 "2003-08-24T16:19:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*The anthem, just for anyone who doesn’t know, is also a later addition that came well after the founders and Constitutional conventioners were dead. \*\* The anthem was written during the War of 1812 which was also known as Mr Madison’s War. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/246 "2003-08-24T16:30:10Z")
Thank goodness I went to an enlightened school in the enlightened state of Iowa. There were no religious observances of any kind - until high school graduation. There, there was a sort of benediction in which the preacher said he hoped everyone had a safe trip home. We said the Pledge of Allegence each morning up through 6th grade but it didn’t include the phrase, “under God” which has caused me to stop saying it since it was added. In my experience religion divides, not unites. In my town, which was unelightened despite the school, Catholics had their own school and even their own cemetary and undertaker. Talk about segregation! We didn’t have many Jews but I suppose they had to go to Sioux City for such services. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/247 "2003-08-24T16:31:33Z")
And while I’m here, does anyone know the religious affiliation of the three lawyers that complained about the monument? Am I correct in assuming they are Christians? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/248 "2003-08-24T16:41:34Z")
David Simmons: Did _all_ the Catholics go to the parochial school or were some of your classmates at the public school Catholic? 2sense: Good question. I think we should have a countdown for when someone comes in and asserts those three lawyers “aren’t real Christians.” ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/249 "2003-08-24T17:07:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GodlessSkeptic \* \*\* > > Wrong again.Rationally speaking, your god is no more likely than ANY god, be it Vishnu, Zeus, Odin or what have you.The probability of your god existing and being the supreme ruler of the universe is exactly the same(given the available data we have right now) as it is for any god.Therefore even if we make the HUGE leap to assuming that SOME god exists and will judge us in the afterlife and firther assume that this god is one of the 5,000 which have been claimed to exist at one time or another, then you still would have, at best a 1 in 5,000 chance of being correct in your wager(or Pascal’s wager rather). \*\* Nevertheless, since you are putting it in odds, the odds for a believer are, by default, better than that of a non-believer. Non-believers are wagering it all that this one brief moment in all of eternity is all there is to what we, as humans, are capable of recognizing as a conscious existance. Eternity is a long time, good luck on your wager. And one more thing to ponder, there is no such thing as nothing. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* \*\* > > Displaying the Ten Commandments in a _corthouse_ is a government endorsement of religion. And just let me club your red herring about “law making.” Congress passes laws about the collection and distribution of taxes. Congress _cannot_ use that legislative power to appropriate or divert public funds towards an endorsement of religion. Government buldings are paid for with public funds collected through legislation by congress. Those buldings cannot be used to promote religion because they are paid for by taxpayer money and congress can’t use taxpayer money to promote religion. Get it now? \*\* Talk about a red-herring… “Congress”, “collection and distribution of taxes”… The subject at hand is the state of Alabama. The Constitution does not forbid the “promotion” of religion, it only forbids the establishment of an official state religion. But, since you want to bring the FedGov into the discussion, even the Federal Government does not completely divorce itself from religion. Each session of Congress opens with a prayer by a member of a clergy. Even in the Supreme Court there is a replica of the Ten Commandments. There is much religious reference in Arlington National Cemetary, and it is paid for and maintained with taxpayer money. Even on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, it is inscribed that the remains are known only by God. There are many monuments and landmarks all across the nation that have a reference to God and religion and are maintained with tax-dollars. There is no “establishment” of religion by either the FedGov or any state government. This whole issue with the Ten Commandments and the Alabama state courthouse isn’t even a thinly veiled attack on religion, it is an all out assault by such groups as the ACLU and their minions to remake America into their vision of a Bolshevik paradise. Well, we see how well the first attempt went. Oh yeah… I get it all right. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stpauler \* \*\* > > Thanks, but I’m not a liberal. I don’t want to see someone burning a flag in the courthouses either. Burn it where you legally can, but a public building is not the place for either. \*\* That’s all fine and dandy, but the incident of flag-burning, that the Supreme Court upheld as a form of “free speech”, took place in front of Dallas City Hall. So, it mattered not one whit whether anyone was offended, or whether anyone had to go out of their way to avoid the flames. Those flames were considered “speech”. But, if one is “offended” by the mere presence of a replica of the Ten Commandments, well, that is intolerable. Displaying the Ten Commandments is considered the establishment of religion. Considering flames as speech and the displaying of the Ten Commandments as the establishment of religion is asinine and can only be reconciled by those peering “through the looking glass”. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* \*\* > > I’m sorry, but you misunderstand the law. \*\* Well, you may very well be sorry, but I do understand the law, and the law in question is the First Amendment. The Amendment explicitly states that no law shall be made with respect to the establishment of religion. Displaying the Commandments is not an act of legislating into law an establishment of religion. No one is required to acknowleged it, nor can anyone be punished for refusing to acknowlege it. Now, if a citizen of Alabama was punished for refusing to accept the Ten Commandments as a basis for their own personal beliefs, then that would be a violation of the First Amendment. Of course, there are those who disregard the Commandment against stealing. Should we turn ‘em loose? Opps, that wasn’t a good question to ask, liberal courts are turnin’ 'em loose. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jeevmon \* \*\* > > I don’t want the government forcing me to practice any religion or prohibiting me from practicing religion. I also want my government to be absolutely neutral as to religion and to be equally indifferent to all forms of religion and to treat all people, regardless of their religious beliefs, equally and fairly.\*\* Well, I hate to break to ya, but it ain’t all about what YOU want. See, Judge Moore was elected by the people and the people were well aware of Judge Moore’s position. Now, if the government of Alabama does treat people differently simply based on their religious beliefs, then there would be a cause of action. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jeevmon \* \*\* > > A big hunk of rock with a piece of Scripture on it bearing the caption “The Laws Of Nature’s God” adorned with big statements like “I am the Lord thy God”, … especially a courthouse, does not fill me with confidence that the government representatives therein are going to be neutral, fair and even-handed.\*\* If a replica of the Ten Commandments threatens your confidence, then you were’nt confident to begin with. It is whether you are treated fair and even-handed that is the issue. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jeevmon \* **Yes, it offends me, because it is the government telling me what the government’s official line is on religion. And that line is not neutrality, but endorsement of a viewpoint. Endorsement of the viewpoint that I must remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. That I must not have any God before the God of the Ten Commandments. That I must not take the Lord’s name in vain. And guess what - I don’t believe in any of that stuff, and it offends me when the government is telling me that I have to.** Now, you are being both paranoid and disingenuous. The government is not telling you that you have to believe any of those things. By writing such, it becomes obvious that you are manufacturing reasons to be “offended” in a limp effort to bolster your personal agenda. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jeevmon \* **Hey, know what I don’t want to read? Any more posts from you. Oh, but that is a protected form of speech, right?** That’s right, just because I enjoy the right to free-speech, I have no right to force you to read what I write. It is your choice to either read it and be offended, or not read it and not be offended. Kind of like a display of the Ten Commandments. You have the choice to either acknowledge them or not. The government cannot punish you or cause you to suffer consequences because of your personal choice in that matter. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by jeevmon \* \*\* > Ooh, Orwell. He’s up there with Hitler as meaningless strawmen to invoke when you don’t have a supportable point._\* Actually, I invoke Orwell because of the Orwellian nature of how society has been forced to change with regards to being infected with the liberal orthodoxy. A very supportable point. Whenever a crisis would arise on the farm, all the amimals would go to the side of the barn where their constitution was written. When they would get there, they would find words mysteriously crossed out and replaced with other words since the last time they had been there. Kind of like changing “freedom of speech” to “freedom of expression” or “shall make no law” to “shall not endorse”. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/250 "2003-08-24T18:12:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Razorsharp \* > \*\*Nevertheless, since you are putting it in odds, the odds for a believer are, by default, better than that of a non-believer. Non-believers are wagering it all that this one brief moment in all of eternity is all there is to what we, as humans, are capable of recognizing as a conscious existance. Eternity is a long time, good luck on your wager. What if God existed and decided to reward atheists and agnostics instead of religious fanatics? That is just as likely as any other conception of the afterlife, and has just as much proof backing it up. > [@](#): > > The Constitution does not forbid the “promotion” of religion, it only forbids the establishment of an official state religion. Tell me precisely where we draw the line between “promotion” and establishment? What, in your mind would be establishing religion? If I understand your position correctly, you are saying that NOTHING short of establishing one Official National Church would be an establishment violation. What about giving money to overtly religious organizations? Let’s say Congress gave money to missionary organizations to preach the gospel nationwide. Would they avoid violating the establishment clause by giving money to both Catholic and Protestant missionaries, as that would be avoiding establishing one particular religious denomination? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/251 "2003-08-24T18:35:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*David Simmons: Did _all_ the Catholics go to the parochial school … > \*\* Of course not. See, religion even divided Catholics against one another. And not a single non-Catholic went anywhere near the Catholic school. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/252 "2003-08-24T20:06:50Z")
> [@](#): > > The anthem was written during the War of 1812 which was also known as Mr Madison’s War. Yes, but no one cared about it at the time, and it wasn’t the “anthem” then, it was a poem. Key’s brother liked the poem so much that he printed it up on a handbill, and included a tune suggestion with it: Anacreon in Heaven. It didn’t, however, become widely popular until the Civil War. At that point, the tune itself (a drinking song of a London drinking club) became very popular with military bands of that era (it’s always been a better band song than an easy-to-sing anthem), and the poem were widely adopted as the new lyrics. But it wasn’t suggested that we have it as a national anthem until 1916 (when we felt we needed to keep up with the at-the-time popular image of facist states, with their colorful our national rituals), and it wasn’t until 1931 that we actually adopted it officially. > [@](#): > > Razorsharp: Well, you may very well be sorry, but I do understand the law, and the law in question is the First Amendment. The Amendment explicitly states that no law shall be made with respect to the establishment of religion. Which, to one who understands the law, includes the actions of all agencies and officials who are empowered to act by said laws. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/253 "2003-08-24T21:32:03Z")
Simmons: Are you 100% sure that the entire student body of the parochial school was Roman Catholic? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/254 "2003-08-24T22:15:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by E-Sabbath \* > \*\*So, who led the prayers, Leroy? Was it a teacher? > > I want you to put yourself in the place of the jewish or native american students. Simply by not participating in the prayer, they were being marked as not part of the group. Think about that. Think about how it would make you feel, day after day, to stand to the side and watch everyone but you do something that made you feel intensely excluded. > > I certainly can. Personally, I have nothing against religion. I respect it, and I deeply respect those who have faith. I have none, but only by default; my mother and father are of different religions, and I was never brought to a religious environment as a child. I eagerly await a revelation by any god who chooses, but none has seen fit to grant me a personal experience, yet. > > I can tell you this: When I do get forced to show up at a church… say, a sleepover with a friend, or a funeral or wedding, I feel not unlike a vampire, as if I should catch on fire and burn simply by being present at a location which is so intently not of my path. > > Being present at a table where someone has requested everyone say grace is not as bad. I quietly bow my head or hold hands as requested and say nothing. But it still is an almost physical pain. > > Do you understand the point where I stand, Leroy? > > Oh, I believe that “b…er” means “A word starting with b, followed by a pause, and then a clearing of the throat described as ‘er’.” \*\* The schools had a chaplain that did the prayers, I don’t remember whether he was also a teacher or not. My school was about half men teachers and half women. How you feel about yourself in a group of people who don’t share your beliefs is up to you. You can be uncomfortable or right at home. In my school I didn’t notice anyone feeling bad specifically because of that reason. But I could not have known everything or everyone. When I was very young and forced to go to church, it was okay. They had cookies and cool aid and games. As I grew older and was expected to accept the doctrine, I became more and more uncomfortable. Much of what I was asked to believe was not logical to me and I questioned a lot of it. The questioning brought private sessions with the pastor, who finally told me to “just believe it on faith or go to hell.” I learned to keep my mouth shut until I was old enough to quit going on my own. There were occasions when I would go back, but the same thing happened, so it’s been over 30 years since I have gone to church except for “marrying and burying.” Fifteen years ago I had a near death experience that totally, completely changed my perspective on life. I stood in the presence of God and felt His unconditional love and the understanding of literally all things (most of which I have forgotten). From that moment I began a exhaustive research of everything I could find on the subject of NDEs. I also read a lot in religion, philosophy, psychology, and other related “people” subjects. This sojourn on the Doppers board is just another learning event. One of the things I have learned is that God has no religion. He is universal, unconditional love. There is no fear to be associated with God no matter what men may say. Now, about receiving an experience from Him. NDEs, OBEs, visions and other experiences usually just happen on their own, out of the blue, so to speak. You can’t really plan for them. However, you can meditate to peacefulness and solitude. This will help you to open up to things unknown. I won’t try to explain much, people who want to know will do research themselves. I do understand your point, I have been there, and know it is a valid one. There are a lot more of life ahead of us all. The name calling unfortunately is the trademark of the Doppers board, and must be tolerated in order to learn more important things. Love is everything Leroy ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/255 "2003-08-24T22:54:50Z")
Kook aid, huh? Explains a lot. The above is a joke for those who get it. For those who don’t, just consider it a joke you don’t get. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/256 "2003-08-24T22:56:39Z")
Oops! Typo above! Corrected version herein: Kook aid, huh? Explains a lot. The above is a joke for those who get it. For those who don’t, just consider it a joke you don’t get. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/257 "2003-08-25T00:08:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Simmons: Are you 100% sure that the entire student body of the parochial school was Roman Catholic? \*\* It’s foolhardy to let your probability marker get to 100%. Just the same I would be astonished if there were any non-Catholics in the school. Those were entirely different times. For one thing, there was a disasterous economic depression, one the likes of which I doubt you’ve ever seen and probably can’t even imagine, and the Catholic school charged non Catholics a pretty steep tution. My point is that in my opinion, and I think I have evidence for it everywhere I look, religion is a divisive force in society whether or not a few Protestants went to a Catholic school in the 1930’s in a small town in Iowa. I don’t see how there is any debate to that. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/258 "2003-08-25T00:31:09Z")
But you said the Catholics went to the parochial school and everyone else steered clear of it. There is the possibility, is ther not, that there was the odd non-Catholic student in said parochial school who just so happened to be admitted for one reason or another (parents could pay {even during the depression, some folks had cash}, the church admitted them at a scholarship fo some sort, etc.). I have a good imagination and I’ve been around for a bit, to include having lived in a number of places, including in other countries. So you really don’t know if I’ve seen or can imagine that. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/259 "2003-08-25T01:13:06Z")
So, you’re telling me that a public school paid for a chaplain, Leroy? That person was an authority figure, leading prayers, paid for by government money. Wouldn’t you call that an establisment of one religion to the exclusion of others, by the government? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2003, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319/260 "2003-08-25T01:16:03Z")
Oh, and no, I’m not playing a little “catch Leroy in saying something wrong” game, I’m trying, slowly and surely, to explain to you why I think prayers led by school officials are wrong. I’m sure there’s a lot of things you’ve mananged to not notice over life… there’s a lot of things I don’t notice, until I stop and think about them. And I’m not going to get diverted into the NDE thing, either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defiant-chief-justice-vows-to-keep-ten-commandments-monument/195319.md?page=14)